Replies

1. 
   sharpologist | Oct 12, 2003 06:05pm | #1

   Big rubber bands.

   Texas Sharpologist

2. 
   jackiechan | Oct 12, 2003 10:57pm | #2

   Ed,

   Cut a piece of 3/4" (thick) scrap (plywood, MDF, or other) to the exact inside dimensions of the box.  Glue up the four sides with the cut scrap resting in the center of each.  This will hold the box square during the glue up - once it has dried, release the clamps and push the scrap out. (See enclosed graphic).

   If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask!

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

   
3. 
   patternmaker | Oct 13, 2003 09:33am | #3

   Ed:

   I make lots of small jewelry boxes from short shop cutoffs.

   I make my boxes with mitered corners.After cutting the mitres,I lay all the parts for one box flat on the bench,outside up,and all the edges touching each other as they will be in the finished box.

   Now,I take strips of masking tape and place across all the joints. Turn the taped assembly over and apply glue to all he joints.Now the box will fold together as the tape forms a hinge. Place a piece of tape on the final joint and set aside to cure.

   It is a given that the joints must be accurately cut before glue up.

   Easier to do than tell about.

   Work Safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

1. 
   GregB126 | Oct 13, 2003 10:04pm | #4

   Ed,

   I think Pat's method is the best.  Masking tape has really terrific elasticity and serves very well as a "clamp".  Here are some other considerations which might help. 

   Take all your box sides and slide them, inside face down, up against your table saw fence (if the box is small enough to do this) or some other stable, straight edge.   I like to put the bottom edge of the box against the fence, so it will be flat/in-one-plane, so the box will not rock when set upright.  You can plane the top edge flat, if necessary, later.  Three of your corners will be touching where they will eventually meet in their final positions.  The inside faces will be resting on your nice, flat, stable table saw surface.  The edges will be touching, but careful not to ram them together, as you could conceiveably dent these sharp edges.  You will also see at this point whether you cut your miter's squarely or not.  It they're not square, the box won't close up on the last corner very well.  If very much out of square, you'll have a spiral, not a box.

   Apply the masking tape, at the edges where the sides join.  Have some 1/4 in. mdf or something like it to cover the surface of the tablesaw onto which you will then flip the assembly over and glue it up.  I don't like just plain newspaper, as it moves around and can bunch up.  Preferable to have something flat.  When you do flip it over, the outside faces will be down, and the inside faces, with the mitered joins open, facing up.  Brush on some glue and just fold it all closed, applying some tape to the final mitered corner which didn't get any yet.  

   You should apply the tape a little "tightly", as if you are applying a bandaid to a cut that you know the child doesn't wish to feel has been bandaged too tightly, but which you know needs at least a little tension.  The masking tape's elasticity is generally all you need.  I have a couple of Bessey corner/band clamps, but really don't think they add anything to the masking tape in glueing up boxes.  You won't get any more squeeze-out unless you tighten the clamps very tightly, which is probably too much.  I have applied the tape vertically, along the joints, then cross-wise after fold up.  The squeeze-out is usually toward the interior of the box, due to the direction it is pushed as the box is folded closed.  I haven't had squeeze-out ruin/stain the outside of the box, due to being trapped by tape running along the vertical length of the joint.  You can go only cross-wise if you like.  It there is any squeeze out onto the outside surfaces, you can plane or scrape it clean later.

     Unless your box sides are very thin, the mitered joints, when closed and taped, will be sufficient to prevent racking.  You'll be amazed and pleased at how well this method works the first time you try it. 

   Also, what kind of bottom will you use?  Sometimes the best is 1/4 in. ply (veneered, for looks, or not).  It's nice to have something cross laminated (ply) as the bottom, for stability.  Regardless, if it is let into the lower part of the box, into grooves made into  box sides, it will provide a lot of stability when the box is "folded" closed.  It will also help with alignment and simply holding the box together when you fold it closed the first time, without glue, to see how it looks and if the mitered corners look okay.  When you unfold the box before brushing on the glue, (I use acid brushes trimmed short with scissors so they are stiff and more controllable) leave the bottom right where it is in a groove in one of the sides.  It will have been centered/positioned during the dry run fold up.  When you apply the glue and fold it up for good, you won't have to worry about wiggling it about until it's where you want it.  Less stress during glue-up.

   People seem to love boxes as gifts, and you can use some very beautiful timber in these small amounts, and not break your bank.  Just keep in mind that anything that can be picked up in the hands, will be no more than arm's lenght from the eyes.  Boxes will be picked up, turned over and looked at.  So try and make your miters well, as Pat suggests, and you'll be pleased too.

   Cheers,

   Greg

   Edited 10/13/2003 3:20:19 PM ET by GregB

1. 
   BG | Oct 15, 2003 04:09pm | #7

   GregB,

   I applied the box making technique that you and others described here last night on some scrap poplar.  It worked quite well, very pleased. I have a few finishing questions, if I may, for all of you that make beautiful boxes.

   I cut my 45's on the table saw using the Incra miter.  Do you use a backer board  to prevent tearout? The joint seems came out fairly tight..but the ends are a bit sharp and will not remain that way...do you lightly sand the ends?...kinda rounding over the ends just a tiny bit? I planed and scraped after the glue up the sides, top and bottom...do you usually sand those areas too.

   As you can tell, boxes are new to me and I'd like to get the process steps down so that I can eventually produce good outcomes.  thanks

1. 
   GregB126 | Oct 16, 2003 07:13am | #8

   BG,

   I cut mine a bit differently, usually because I'm making a bit deeper box.  My sides are too high to cut on the tablesaw using a miter gauge.  (I have done this, and do certainly recommend a wood fence on the miter gauge to support the cut on the back side, as you say.) 

   I have tilted the blade to 45 degrees or used a sled/jig (current practice) which holds the timber at 45 degrees, leaving the saw blade at 90.  I don't like to mess around changing from 90.  I then clean up the sawn faces on a shooting board, which I also put a 45 degree jig on.  I use a L-N #9 for shooting these.  I know the edges created are sharp, thin and fragile.  Just be careful with them.  When glued up, they'll support each other in their new attitude of making two halves of the 90 degree corner. 

   If you sand them before gluing, you might rag them out and defeat your purpose.  If you sand after, it had better be minimal, as any sanding or planing at mitered corners will ruin their appearance.  You'll have created a joint line not at a 90 degree edge, but in the middle of a blunted edge, if you picture what I mean.  You'll also have exposed end grain, which defeats the purpose of making mitered corners.  Believe it or not, I've never used sandpaper on any box I've made.  That's because I'm not a pro and can afford to be impractical, and also because I like to practice hand work, especially on small items.  It makes you think and plan ahead, but I find the end result a nice accomplishment. 

   Just remember, if you use corner splines, sometimes called "keys", to reinforce the miters, make sure you let the glue cure completely before trimming them flush to the box.  The moisture in the glue will cause them to swell.  They can shrink until finally cured.  It you trim them flush too soon, they'll wind up being indentations, rather than attractive, flush reinforcing features.

   Cheers,

   Greg

1. 
   BG | Oct 16, 2003 12:41pm | #9

   Greg,

   Thanks, that is helpful and I hear you on the use of any sandpaper.  I just get a bit nervous with the planes and tearout at the edges...more experience will help that.  I'll cut a couple more and then play with the use of splines.  BG 

2. 
   AlanTurner | Oct 17, 2003 01:31am | #11

   Greg

   I have recently built a cross grain shooting board, and it is the most accurate way I have of getting a true 90 on a board.  I too use the L-N 9.  I inlaid a 1/8" strip of ebony at the base for the No. 9 to ride against, as  a wear strip, and then trued it up to 90 deg. with a scraper.  I took the idea from the Charlesworth book.  I thought it was neat that he could shoot a board, and see half of the knife line he had struck.  Mine does that too, and it is quite satisfying.  Makes building drawers a lot easier when you have a 90 which is really a true 90.

   Now that I am into shooters, how do you make a shooting board for a 45 such as for the mitered box corner you discuss?  Do you have a pix or drawing or referrence?

   Also, while you are at it, what have you done for a shooting board for long grain shooting?  And, is there a way to build one which has the ability to hold the planing side parallel to the other side?

   Thanks for any info.

   Alan

3. 
   GregB126 | Oct 17, 2003 05:38am | #12

   Alan,

   Funny you should mention David Charlesworth's book.  I've mentioned them so much in this forum that I began to feel self conscious, almost like a salesman or something.  The fact is, they're superb.  I think that if anyone had the slightest trepidation or questions concerning shooting boards, a read of his 2nd volume would put everything to rest.  

   As for the 45 degree jig, look at your copy of volume 2, page 20.  That's where the concept for mine came from.  Mine is a lot bigger, and doesn't have the high fence, as David's does.  Mine just has a low strip along the edge which is placed against the underlying shooting board's fence.  Of course, it doesn't extend all the way down to the shooting board's sole, but rather stops just above the shooting board's fence.  No troubles with the two not being in plane.  If there is even a small inaccuracy, you know you can correct for it as David does, which is to place a piece of paper or card as a spacer so your timber is brought back to an exact 45 in one plane and 90 in the other. 

   Mine are constructed of mdf for the faces and 3/4 in ply for the 45 degree supports.  The mdf stay nice and flat, and the ply is good for sinking screws into.  If you have Kirby's Tablesaw book, the construction and reasons for using those materials are set out pretty clearly there.

   As for long grain, I haven't done anything but shoot those edges clamped upright.  In other words, the common, ordinary way.  I have adopted David's teaching on this, called "The Method" in the book.  It takes advantage of a slightly rounded plane blade.  I'd seen it previously in the F&C article of his, well before the book came out.  Amazingly effective.  If you are indeed interested in shooting along an edge, good conceptual photos appear at pages 24 and 25.  (directed more at shooting veneer, which would be especially important for book matching veneer)  Maybe even better are photos on a site which Eddie (from Australia) has posted here before.  I may have bookmarked them, but if Eddie is listening, maybe he could throw in his thoughts.  His advice is always very good.

   Cheers,

   Greg

4. 
   GregB126 | Oct 17, 2003 07:51am | #13

   Alan,

   I think this is the site Eddie has posted.

   http://users.bigpond.net.au/hntgordon/shootingboards.htm

5. 
   AlanTurner | Oct 17, 2003 05:31pm | #16

   Thanks for the link.  I printed, and saved it.  I will look at DC tonight.

   Alan

2. 
   SparrowHawk | Oct 16, 2003 01:32pm | #10

   Hi BG,

   I agree with Greg about the splines and letting them cure before trimming. Using some veneer on the top and bottom of a spline really sets them off. I generally angle my TS  blade to 45* when cutting miters which I feel is much safer when cutting sides since the blade can be kept lower not to mention the fact that it allows me to cut wider stock in one pass. I will soon try my hand at a shooting board when doing them though as I am leaning more and more towards hand tools.

   For glue up I have tried a number of methods. The tape is a good way to keep things together when lining them up but I have trouble making all joints tight and square with it. I have tried 90* corner clamps but they don't seem to keep the angle equal from top to bottom. I've tried large rubber bands but once again the squareness tends to elude me.  Mostly I end up resorting to 6 bar clamps and measuring for squareness. I had an idea (undoubtedly not original) to make a jig that would work for any size box up to it's max. Build a perfectly square frame of perhaps 1x3x18 with butt joints or perhaps rabbetts (not miters). Cut out a "V" in one corner for glue squeeze and make two sliding bars with a screws like a pair of vices on two adjacent sides oppose the "V". It would be a simple thing then to place your glued box in the jig and use the sliding panels to place equal pressure on all sides which ought to keep the box reasonably square which could be adjusted easily by changing the pressure. If the jig were made properly, you should be able to use a chisel easily to clean squeeze out before it fully cures yet not affect the pressure. Sounds good in theory anyway :+). This would only make sense though if you make enough boxes.

   Generally I will relieve my sharp edges with a touch of sandpaper, my block plane or gently round them over with my router (and I mean REALLY gently or you'll get end grain showing). You didn't mention how you plan to finish the interior. I have had good luck with flocking - it's easy to apply albeit a tad messy but it looks very professional when it's done. I also like to set a piece of figured wood in a frame on the inside of the lid. I tend to avoid hinges because the screws are bound to tear out over time though this is simply a personal preference. Alignment of the lid of course then requires inserts.

   I really enjoy making small boxes. Most can be made from scraps and there seems to be a decent market for them - at least around here (FL). I find my market locally will generally pay between $65-100 for a box about 3x5x7 if it's got a highly figured top with some inlay.

   Be safe,Ken

   Edit- incidentally, I don't have a great deal of trouble with tearout. It happens of course, but it's usually a simple thing to hide by rounding over the top edge. If it's critical that the cut be clean I can always use a sacrificial piece against it. I have yet to complete a box (or any project for that matter) that went perfectly according to plan without any modifications on my part due to grain, tearout etc. That fluid method of creating is part of what makes WW so appealing to me.

   Edited 10/16/2003 6:40:05 AM ET by SparrowHawk

   Edited 10/16/2003 6:42:59 AM ET by SparrowHawk

1. 
   Steinmetz | Oct 17, 2003 09:59am | #14

   SparrowHawk, If you fashion a bunch of (What I call MYTE A BLOX) ,this will help when you glue up your boxes.

     They are simply hardwood V -blocks with matching triangular blocks to mate into the other. These can be clamped wiith small c clamps to the inside and outside of the box's miter joint at glue up .

   With your TS blade set at 45%rip out a length of triangular flat moulding (Quarter sguare?)  To make the outter V shape first rip a length of wood say, 3/4" x 1-1/2"wide avd make two cuts to form a vee groove in the middle

    Slice them up and keep around. To keep glue from sticking, save and use small sheets of the plastic sheeting used by the deli when slicing cold cuts.  (Teflon?)

   There are nice wire clamps available called COLLINS CLAMPS, that you may prefer rather than C clamps. 

   " You never have more than two hands nor, enough enough clamps!"

   This can be done on a router table too. Also you can bore small round recesses in their outer fases to accomodate the clampg jaws.    Stein

   Edited 10/17/2003 3:06:42 AM ET by steinmetz

2. 
   SparrowHawk | Oct 17, 2003 01:11pm | #15

   Thanks Stein,

   That sounds like a pretty easy way to accomplish a square corner. I'll make some and give it a try next time I'm in the shop ... Christmas is coming so that will probably be tomorrow. :+)

   Be safe,Ken

4. 
   Upraiser | Oct 14, 2003 03:07am | #5

   Ed

   Lots of real good advice, I have used  masking tape on the corners, sometime I run it a bit longer down the side. This may help when you get a little bit of wood movement, curl, warp etc.

   Some really great articles in Fine Woodworking a few years ago on this subject.

   I am human, wear glasses and have been known to be off on some of the cuts, even a 1/16", 1/32" or 1+ degree will show up sometime, but usually when you glue up.  It is also the time when you realize that wood will move a bit, especially the really choice figured stuff, wild knotts etc.  I find that when I cut the dado for top, bottom and even when I put the glue on.  

   That is when I grab my little micro clamps, I have some real small brass ones, some of the guick adjust ones and on real problem joints I may grab a few larger ones.

   I will carefully add them all around to try and keep the pressure even.  I check the joints, check to see if it remains square and adjust as necessary.

   If the joints are not perfect, you can add a spline down the miter, use contrasting wood. Cut a real shallow saw kirf, then glue in a spline. Plane and sand it.  I saw that in another publication, it looks real nice.  Be sure to make a jig to hold the box when you do it.

   They are fun to make, fun to give.

   I need to get started on some, you inspire me.

   Curt

5. 
   ejant | Oct 14, 2003 07:47pm | #6

   Thanks to all who replied.

   Your suggestions wil be tried.