Replies

1. 
   robkelly1 | Oct 05, 2003 02:52am | #1

   Why do you want to glue the panels to the rails/stiles? Stability?

   What size are the doors?  What finish do you intend to use?

   If you're determined to glue, seal the edges of the plywood 1st, with 2 coats of sealer and the plywood will be even more stable as far as lack of movement.

1. 
   Curtis | Oct 05, 2003 03:58am | #2

   I agree with rob. seal the ends.

   perhaps you could use a screw pocket to hold the rails/stiles? screw pockets make cabinet work easer.and they are strong. just a suggestion.

   sincerely.   C.A.G.

2. 
   HenryVIII | Oct 05, 2003 04:38am | #3

   The true joy of plywood is that there's no movement.  Since alternating layers have the grain running at right angles to the other adjacent layers, it doesn't move.

   I'm in agreement about sealing the edges, but I'm having  problem getting a visual of how you are going to join the ply to the stiles and rails.  Are you going to rout a groove in the stile/rails to take the 1/2 in. ply, or just butt them together with glue to hold them ?  I've used biscuits to do that (but not on doors for cabinets), and once I used dowels.

   If you're going to seal the edges of the ply make sure you stain them first.  Otherwise, you're sure to get squeeze out or in some other way you'll get glue on the visible surface of the ply.  Then, the stain won't penetrate.

   Hope this helps.

1. 
   DHCricket | Oct 05, 2003 02:44pm | #5

   I plan on using tongue and grove cutters on my shaper to put a grove on the stiles and the inside of the rails and a tongue on the rails and then glue the plywood into the grove. I think the glue should seal the plywood panel edges. Besides added strength of the overall door, I want as little movement of the doors as possible as they will be inset in the face frame. While most of the doors will be fairly small, some of them will be quite large as they will be pantry doors. In regard to finishing, I plan on spraying with a Solar-lux NGR stain followed by three coats of clear poly.

1. 
   ron61 | Oct 05, 2003 08:26pm | #6

   If you are insetting your doors in the face frames you need to allow for the wood to swell

   Even If you glued the ply. panel to the stile and rail how ever you do it- The solid wood that the stile and rail are made will swell and shrink .

   Think about how a raised panel door is made- the panel is 1/4 in. smaller than the bottom of the grove it sets in so it has room to move with out breaking the door frame apart. The panel on a correctly made door does not effect the door frame swelling its the Stile and Rail swelling and shrinking.

   No wider than the stock will be I bet If you allow 1/8 in gap all around the door they wood be fine.

   Sounds like you want some HEAVY DUTY DOORS using 1 in. thick stock with 1/2 in panels.

   You might want to think about using 3/4 thick wood and 1/4 in .MDF core for panels pinned in the frame.1/4 MDF fits very well.

   Save you some money and I would get a set of stile and rail cutters for your shaper they  would be worth every penny + the ease of door making .

   That's the way we make Cabinet doors at the shop.

   Ron

   Who Ever Has The Biggest Pile Of Tools When You Die Wins

   Edited 10/5/2003 7:13:16 PM ET by Ron

2. 
   robkelly1 | Oct 08, 2003 10:34pm | #13

   When you talk about T&G cutters are you talking flooring cutters? If so, most flooring cutters are rounded as far as the tongue goes, and you'll have to make 2 passes and the bottom of the groove won't be flat. You can't cut a tight groove with a 1/2" rabbet cutter because modern plywood is smaller than the nominal thickness. If you're making pantry doors probably 18" x 60 or 72", you'll have to glue in the panel for stability unless your stiles and rails are fairly large, like 3 or 4" each. If you're determined to use the plwood, I'd suggest getting a 3/8" rabbet cutter for your shaper and use it to cut everything, adjusting height as necessary for multiple passes. Or you can go with a 3/8" groove and relieve the inside edge or the panel to fit the groove. I'd also suggest a groove depth of 1/2" at least. Don't use the glue to seal the edges. It will slop out and interfere with the staining.

3. 
   TomT226 | Oct 05, 2003 02:41pm | #4

   I'm assuming that you're talking about attaching the finished face frames to the ply boxes. You need some method to pull the joints tight to get a good glue line.

   If that's the case, there are plenty of ways to attach face frames.

   The mechanical strength of glue is plenty strong enough to hold the frame to the box.

   You could use screws with plugs, pocket screws, or brads to hold the frame in place while the glue cures. Biscuits on all sides help you to align the frame while installing.

4. 
   mudman | Oct 06, 2003 05:02am | #7

      I agree with Ron, 1 inch stiles and 1/2 inch ply panels is nuts. I'm all for building to last but these deminsions will not really make a stronger door, the joinery is much more importaint.  Regardless, you really should "float" the panels. Plywood DOES expand, not as much as solid wood but more than MDF.

   Sounds like you are really going to make some great cabinets, love to see the pics!

   Mike

5. 
   vacabby | Oct 07, 2003 02:15am | #8

   No matter the thickness of the material  you use the plywood will move very little.   However, the stiles and rails, even though they are QS material will move.   If you are concerned with noise (rattle) from the loose panel I suggest space balls.   Sealing and glueing is work that you are going to do for no benefit to the end result.    We use 3/4" material and 1/2" plywood panels all the time.   It makes for a very substantial door unit.   The space balls are cheap and have provided great results.   We do alot of work in QS or rift cut ash and QS and rift cut white oak.   Both provide much less movement than plain sawn material but they do move.

   jb

1. 
   DHCricket | Oct 07, 2003 02:40am | #9

   jb,

   What type of joinery do you use on your doors? The reason I was asking about gluing the panels to the stiles and rails was to increase the strength of the door since I am planning on using tongue and grove joints that will give me a Shaker look.

   Some one else had commented on the thickness of the wood and panel. I have 1/4" plywood that only has one A face, so I am planning on gluing them together to get two good sides. I plan on using 1" thick stiles and rails so I will get a 1/4" reveal on each side.

1. 
   charlesm | Oct 07, 2003 03:47pm | #10

   Glue a spot in the center of the panel at the top and bottom in the groove for the smaller doors and also glue the center left and right sides for the tall doors. This will allow the frames to shrink/swell around the panel and still keep the door stong and solid.

2. 
   vacabby | Oct 07, 2003 04:24pm | #11

   We typically use M&T joints.   However, I have used a tongue and groove joint many many times and never had a failure.   With the strength of todays adhesives I can almost guarantee that the wood fiber will have to fracture before the glued joint will fail.   Since we also use alot of ash there are many times that our 1/4" material is ash on only one side and birch on the other.   This does not make the finished project unsightly when the doors are open.    Most of the time the 1/4" material is plain sawn material(book matched) and the stile and rail  material is QS or rift cut.   If you take the time to layout your cuts on your plywood material and match your lumber on adjoining door frames this can be a very attractive look.    You may have a bit more waste but the end result is well worth it.   I make the customer aware of the material up front and they have always been pleased with the results.

   Good luck to you.

   jb

2. 
   ron61 | Oct 08, 2003 01:39pm | #12

   Hey can you tell me where to get the Space Balls?

   Thanks RonWho Ever Has The Biggest Pile Of Tools When You Die Wins

1. 
   vacabby | Oct 08, 2003 11:12pm | #14

   Ron,

   Woodworkers Supply, Woodcraft, Rockler and many other supply companies carry this item.

   jb

6. 
   aksophie | Oct 08, 2003 11:55pm | #15

   Simply glue your plywood into the frames. The movement (if there is any) in plywood is not a factor, except that there is "none" which makes for a very strong and stable door. Treating a plywood panel the same as one would deal with a solid lumber panel is nuts.