I’m building a solid walnut night stand chest of drawers with 3 drawers. The top is 35″w x 20″d. My question has to do with glue-up and fastening to allow for expansion. The side panels, top and base are all glued up panels of walnut 3/4″ thick.
The interior frame panels and solid base will be let into 1/2″ dadoes. Should the frame panels be glued to the sides about half the distance, front to rear? Will that compromise the overall chest stability?
I look forward to your comments and experience.
George
Replies
George,
Ideally, the drawer blades (rails, dividers- the fronts of your interior frames) ought to be glued in place. It's best if they are dovetailed into the ends, or mortise and tenoned; simply gluing them into a dado will not offer any strength to resist a spreading force, as when a drawer gets askew and jams. At the very least, you ought to have the top and bottom rails attached in such a way as to keep the ends of the case from spreading apart.
The drawer runners (supports, bearers- the ends of your interior frames) running from front to back inside the case ought not be glued to the ends, but be allowed to "float" while resting in their dadoes. One good way to do this is to cut a tenon on the front end, and assemble it dry into a mortise on the back edge of the drawer blade, then attach the back end to the case end with a screw or nail. If there is a rear blade, the runner may be dry tenoned into both blades, and fixed in the center of its length to the case end with a nail or screw. Or you could glue it at one end, and let the other end float. The case end will not be restricted in its movement with seasonal humidity changes, yet the runner will be firmly held in place. Make sure that the length of the runners is slightly less than the depth of the case in the winter, when it is at its narrowest.
If the case bottom is solid, it may be attached however you want to the ends, as they will all swell and shrink at the same rate. Dovetailing is the traditional means of attaching a case bottom, but nails, screws, dowels, even (horrors) biscuits, will work. Same for the top.
Ray
Thanks for the great advice and thoughtful response.
You're welcome, George. Good luck with your project.
Ray
Ray,While we are discussing this what is the best way you have found to let in the sliding dovetail to the side panel? I've really not used that joint but I can certainly see its value. I guess my question is what method have you found that works best for sliding dovetails? Is there a good explanation in any of FWW.I would appreciate your advice.GEorge
George,
Easiest, is to cut the recess with a router and a dovetail bit.
To control the cut, make up a "U" shaped guide for the router, by gluing and screwing three 12" long pieces of 1 x2 hardwood together. Just lap the legs of the guide over the base, and fasten the pieces together at 90*. The width of the dovetail slot is determined by how much bigger the space between the legs of the guide are, than the diameter of the router base. (For instance, if you have 3/4" stock for the rails, and the router bit is 1/2" diameter, you want the slot to be almost 1/4" bigger than the bit. So, if the router base is 6" across, you'll make the guide legs 6- 3/16" apart.)
In use, the guide is clamped to the case end, with the base of the guide firmly against the case's edge. Carefully enter the router, and, holding the base against one leg of the guide, advance it to a mark that establishes the end of the slot. Retrieve the router by moving it to the other leg of the guide, and bring it back to the edge of the case. Be aware that the edge can "blow out" as the bit exits the cut. You can avoid this by carefully initially making a shallow relief cut on the outside, by running the router side to side between the guide legs, before advancing the router fully into the cut.
The dovetails on the rails' ends can be cut with the same bit used in a router table and a tall fence to support the rail in a vertical position as it is advanced past the cutter. Or you can make a jig to straddle the rail, clamped in the bench vise, that will support the router as it is passed across the end of the rail. Or you can saw them, and pare to fit. Or, I bet Larry Williams could make you a spiffy dovetail plane...
Ray
Very, very helpful. I'm going to the shop in a few minutes to do some jig making. Thank you.
Ray,
Do you ever cut these by hand? I make the pin first and then scribe around it to establish the socket on the rail. Use a dovetail saw to cut as much of it as I can and then gradually remove the rest of the wood with a chisel. Like a half blind dovetail.
Jim
Jim,
I've always used the router in casework (except when conventional dovetailing the top and bottom rails). Just lazy, I guess. But, I've always cut the dovetail joint as you describe, in joining the legs to shaft on tripod tables. There again, because it seems easier that way, for some reason, than fussing with a different router jig on the lathe, for every different dia shaft.
Ray
geodown, here's a sketch that illustrates Ray's description. There may be some slight anomolies with his words, but essentially it's the same thing.
Where I vary slightly with Ray's practice is to glue the tenon of the side rail, properly named the runner/kicker into the mortice worked in the front rail.
The runner/kicker- dowelled at the back end in this case, is not glued at all into the carcase housing (dado in the US), nor where the dowels enter the rear rail. Tenons are an alternative to the dowels.
The shoulder to shoulder measurement of the runner/kicker is less than the distance between the back edge of the front rail and the front edge of the rear rail, usually by about 3 mm for a very deep carcase, i.e., one deeper than about 500 mm (~20".) This, in most cases, allows plenty of room for seasonal carcase expansion and contraction. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
I really appreciate your drawing and seeing some of your work. Thank you.
Ah Richard,
Perfect, a picture is worth a thousand words. Just curious, why would one not use tenons at both ends of the runner? Once set up, it's easier to do over a mortise and tenon, than re-set to drill for dowels, seems to me. Unless, someone forgot to add the length of the tenon, on the cut list. ;-0))
Regards,
Ray
True Ray about cutting a tenon at both ends of the runner/kicker. I suppose though that if the carcase is very deep, e.g., plan chest deep, then you're relying on a very short stub tenon remaining engaged in a fairly shallow groove. This would be where a couple of dowels might have an advantage, although it's probably a marginal advantage.
It would be just as easy to use dowels at either end of the runners and kickers as using tenons at either end I suppose. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Well, there you are. I tend to not use stub tenons, if I can use longer ones. Generally, the tenons on my drawer runners are 1" long, with a haunch to get away from the dovetail or tenons of the rail. That gives me plenty of "slack" to allow for case movement.
Ray
I too sometimes use longer tenons at the front and back of the runner/kicker, Ray. The haunch you mention on the outside edge of the runner/kicker does move the mortise in from the tenons or dovetails at the end of the front and back rail, and this does lead to leaving more meat to carry those tenons or dovetails.
Still, a deeper mortice here must have some weakening effect on the ends of the front and back rail so it's always a bit of a trade-off regarding strength.
Another method I've employed is to use the stub tenon as I drew it in my earlier sketch for the runner/kicker, but also put a screw in from the inside edge of the runner/kicker into the carcase side. If this screw is set back from the front end of the runner/kicker by less than about 40 mm (1-1/2") it helps holds the stub tenon at the front in place without causing problems with shrinkage and expansion of the carcase side. There is an extra step in the process, which is a disadvantage.
This then is a situation where long dowels at the back of the runner/kicker serve a useful purpose in allowing far more for carcase side expansion and contraction where carcases are very deep. The dowel also takes less meat away from the rear divider.
So, in summary as I see it there are all sorts of small variations on the general theme. Each variation has its strength and weakness. It's a case of making an educated judgement on each situation as it arises. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
" making an educated judgement on each situation as it arises"
What kind of talk is that? We've never done it that way in this shop!
Cheers,
Ray
Ray, it's just a fancy way of saying, "Lick it 'n' Stick It."
I really didn't want the aura and mystique taken out of the job, but you've forced my hand, ha, ha. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 7/9/2007 11:32 am by SgianDubh
Joinerswork,
I'd like to ask a somewhat related question of you and Sgian. In the diagram the drawer will be supported by the runner and the side of the carcass which is clear. However, most times(for me)the sides of the case go into 2by's or a face frame kinda setup. At any rate the drawer has no side support and will flop around. I've never seen this addressed in any drawing. I add a piece of stock to make it flush or add perpendicular stock to the runner for drawer support. I'm really curious how it's supposed to be done. thanks
BG,
Just as you say; add a filler to the case end, or a guide strip to the runner. In the instance of a small table with a 2" thick leg, and a 1" thick apron, it's usually a 1 x 2" filler, glued and/or screwed to the apron, to which the runner is glued and/or nailed, in line with the front rail. For more substantial construction, like a frame-and-panel end chest of drawers, the inside of the stiles can be mortised to accept the tenoned ends of the fillers, to which the runner may be attached.
By the way,I like to attach drawer runners and fillers in such a way that they can be removed for replacement down the road, without giving the repairer a case of heartburn, Many times I've cursed the builder of an antique chest of drawers who carefully built the drawer framing into the cabinet, with no means, (short of dis-assembly of the case, or destruction of the framing,) for repair/replacement of worn parts.
Ray
Joinerworks,
Thanks for the information, I always wondered how that space was filled and have never seen it addressed.
That's a good point about not making the sides or runners fixed. I often shim the sides to improve the drawer fit; no matter how much I try, the carcass is usually out of square by a sixteenth and the drawer too but of course the other way. Shimming lets me hide this fact.
Ray & Richard - wanted to thank you both for your excellent posts. I'm just getting my bearings for cabinetry and furniture work and your posts succinctly and clearly explained with real world examples (and an illustration no less!) something I've seen various books take entire chapters to explain.
Your posts are a good example of the reason I take the time to browse through Knots.
Thank you!charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
The basic carcase can be glued, utilizing the mortise and tendon for stability and strength. The top is a different story. When I put a top on a piece I either use figure 8 fasteners or buttons to allow for wood movement. To make a sliding dovetail, do it in two steps. The first step is using a straight bit, then follow up with the dovetail bit. This procedure allows the removal of wood for the dovetail to go smoother and the waste does not clog the cut as much. Once you have the project complete, post a picture of it. All of us enjoy the fruits of labor of fellow woodworkers.
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