Replies

1. 
   JEvans | May 18, 2003 03:09am | #1

   I'm a rookie at veneering.  After reading a couple books, and considered the cost involved, I chose hammer veneering with hot hide glue. I've been told yellow glues can bleed through thin veneers and affect the finish.

   I have two books I've used for reference, Veneering - A Complete Course by Ian Hosker, and The Complete Manual of Wood Veneering by William Lincoln.  There is also another popular book by ? Burton. Can't remember the title.  If you live near a major bookstore, see what they have on the shelf. 

   If I'm not mistaken, all the veneer work at http://www.americanfederalperiod.com/ is done by hammer veneering.

   Jeff

1. 
   GJMID2 | May 18, 2003 05:08am | #2

   I've tried them all and a vacuum bag set up is by far the easiest to use & provides the best results. Gluing with hide glue/veneer hammer is fine for small projects but I found it difficult for larger items. Contact cement never hardens and table surfaces always have a softness to them and lacquers will sometimes soften the glue. Don't even think about trying water based contact cement with regular veneer--you might get by with paper backed veneer. I have found,with vacuum bags you discover new ways to use veneer and results are terrific. There are several sites that offer advise etc. If you don't have a fairly large compressor (5 horse) you will probably need to buy a vacuum pump, so there is a considerable investment to make.

1. 
   mwinkle | May 19, 2003 02:32pm | #3

   I have a 5 horse compressor-however I'm not familiar with the those site you referred to.   Please give me the names

   Thanks for your reply

1. 
   GJMID2 | May 20, 2003 08:14pm | #6

   This is the forum site with questions & answers http://WWW.VACUPRESS.COM. Fine woodworking usually has ads for two or three companys that sell bags etc for vacuum gluing. I have dealt with Quality VAKuum Prod Inc ([email protected]) and Vacuum pressing Systems Inc 207-725-0935. Both will provide info & are very helpful. I started with a venturi vacuum system and a 4' X 4' bag - kit form with gauges etc and still use it.(You will need to make a 4X4 board to fit in bag and provide a base for glue ups) If price doesn't matter I would purchase a separate vacuum pump, because the venturi system will run your compressor for long periods. Let me know if you have other questions.

1. 
   mwinkle | May 20, 2003 08:50pm | #7

   Thanks for taking the time to reply.  Now I can get busy.  

   Another example of the quality people who use this forum!

2. 
   koikid | May 21, 2003 02:32pm | #8

   Last year I did 2 end tables and a coffee table and was my first time doing any "real Veneering"    Doing lots of research I found every one had their own idea of the way it should be done and and glues to use.

   I had an old vacuum pump I use for wood turning from time to time and I opted to build a vacuum bag myself and save some bucks!  I would go the vacuum press method if you can, if you are a builder of all like myself look around you should be able to find an old vacuum pump at some surplus house some where.

   A site to go to to read over his veneer section is  Joewoodworker.com    then go to his to his Veneer Press section (bout 2" down from the top)   he tells about building a bag where to get materials and so on.  I live in a very small town and was able to get every thing but the cement to bond the bag local.

   Need more info.... just ask..good luck

2. 
   ETG | May 19, 2003 02:48pm | #4

   I just finished a small (20 inch by 40 inch) veneer project.  I've heard/read rave reviews about vacuum veneering, but the barrier of entry (cost of equipment, single purpose except the compressor) made me consider the two alternatives - Titebond glue or hide glue.  There are several recent posts that claim spreading Titebond on both surfaces, letting dry then using a household iron to "iron on" the veneer worked well.

   I opted for the hide glue - bought a glue pot (I will use it to heat my finishes so it is a good investment) - process not bad once I got the hang of it.  Like the Titebond method, I coated both sides but then I immediately applied them and started spreading the glue with the hammer.  Working from the center outward, I squeezed any excess out and I used an iron if I had adherence problems.  The next morning, I found the infamous "death grip" that hide glue imparts - I was impressed!  The point that swayed me to hide glue is the fact that is has been used for thousands of years - much of the "antique" furniture that we see today in museums has hide glue veneers.  There are some interesting sites about hide glue veneering - run a query - I'm pleased with my results!

3. 
   JerseyJohn | May 20, 2003 05:12pm | #5

   I'll provide a brief "Short course" as it applies to your questions on veneering

   1. Glue Selection

   Thermoplastic glue - can flow again with heat like candle wax, subject to creep (pva's, cure by water evaporation)

   Thermoset glue - rigid glue line, not creep or springback, cures by chemical reaction (think plywood glue line)

   Hide glue - traditional adhesives, hammered, thermoplastic

   FSV - A fast tack modofied PVA adhesive which you can hammer with.   Four minute open time.  This is a liquid glue to replace hide glue.  You don't need the electric glue pot.  Thermoplastic glue line

   PVA - Your standard yellow and white glues.  Varying open times and varying close (cold clamp) times.  Various colors and viscosity.  Thermoplastic glue line

   Urea - Thermoset adhesive. Rigid glue line

   2. Pressure Systems

   You can use clamps and cauls but be sure to sand a bow into the clamping stringers.  This prevents the center from lifting when clamping at the ends.  Place stringers about four inches on center. The challenge is getting EVEN and CONSISTENT pressure.

   Vacuum bagging

   Vac pumps are rated in CFM for cubic feet per minute of extraction.  This is not a major consideration unless your in production.  For a 4x8 bag it may take 20 seconds to evacuate a bag with a 10 cfm pump and 40 seconds with a 1 cfm pump.  Either way, mother nature will push back with the same amount of pressure once the bag is empty of air.  It is simply a matter of time.  If you operate multiple bags at the same time, a higher extraction rate is best so that the pump can compensate for losses at the bag closeures more quickly with pressure drops.

   You can use a compressor with a venturi pump.  Think of it as an inline siphoning of air. 

   3. Other

   It is not good practice to apply glue to the veneer.  Can you? Sure, but a very light coat.  If you are going to iron it, put a bit more on the core.  With PVA based glues (water based), the glue can wet out and cause a wrinkling of the veneer.

   Try to have the core and veneer at the same moisture content when pressing

   Don't machine or perform other work on a panel until it has cured a full 24 hours.

   I lurk here to keep the craft alive and share knowledge.  If I can be of further assistance either drop me an email or I'll find your post.

   [email protected]

   Regards

   John Ersing

   Veneer Systems