Hello, all.
I just bought 200bf of beautiful quartersawn black oak, all cut from the same bole. All of these boards are in the neighborhood of 16″ wide. The rayfleck is continuous and very dramatic. I’m having dreams of building a 42″x72″ table top with 3 of these pieces. I have a 16″ planer and 18″/36″ drum sander among my tool arsenal, if anyone is wondering.
My conundrum is weather to glue up at 16″ and not have a sander quite wide enough, or to rip down to 8″ and glue up in two stages. I’m also wondering about glue, since I just read some recommendations for polyurethane on table tops. Robert Lang says that yellow glue will flex over time and expose itself at the joints, whereas poly is less flexible and may be a better choice.
I definitely do not want to mess with board direction, since I can bookmatch two pieces and alternate the third for a very continuous looking grain.
I am patiently awaiting advice…..
Replies
There is no good reason to rip and reglue a quarter sawn board. Assuming the wood has been properly kiln dried or air dried properly you can use the boards as they are.
You don't have a sander wide enough for a 42" width so leave it behind and address that width in what ever manner you choose.
Bob Lang is right, PVAs (yellow glue) creep. A rigid glue solves this problem. Plastic resin, hide glue, epoxy and polyurethane are all alternatives. I've never used polyurethane glue and have heard mixed reviews on it.
I'd suggest some sort of mechanical joint on your glueups, a tongue and groove or spline, dowels or glue joint. This will help hold the top together when the glue begins failing.
Lee
Edited 7/9/2005 10:53 am ET by Lee_Grindinger
Thanks for your reply, Lee. I haven't used polyurethane glue either, and have heard good things as long as there is enough moisture and you clean up the foam. I'll keep doing some research on it. Epoxy seems like a good alternative.
My sander will handle 36", so my thought is to address the 6" section in the center of the top by hand.
Good idea about the t&g or spline. I don't think I'll opt for dowels, since I have heard that they may profile through the surface in time.
Any other opinions?
Edited 7/9/2005 11:31 am ET by geomax
Lee,
what do you think is the absolute maximum width that a glue up could be? (assuming bisquits)
What I'm thinking of is to run my boards thru my planner (20 inch wide) then I'll use bisquits to align everything.. Glue everything together and wedge it together using the great room as the clamp base.. The great room is 30 x22 feet. The boards vary from 20 inches wide to about 14 inches and in length from 18 feet to 10 feet. most are white hard maple but some would be burl white oak.. long grain to long grain..
Once the boards are glued together I'd remove the plastic sheeting from underneath and then from below I'd screw the whole assembly to the subflooring..
Yes I'd do the calculations to figure out swelling and shrinkage and leave plenty of room for that plus the screws would "float" in the holes with plenty of room to prevent splitting the wood.
The reason I'm thinking of using such a radicle appraoch is that shrinking during the heating season would move boards more than the tongue and groove.
Geomax,
Many ways to skin a cat, probably lots of opinions.
Personally, I would never rip anything to suit my machines, always work with full width.
For lumber which is well dimensioned by milling (this is not your case), I always use a joint bit on a shaper, or a router and although I seem to be the only one around here doing this, the glue-ups are always easy and near perfect, needing the least amount of finishing afterwards. Glue creep is not an issue, as the joint aligns the boards. A joint bit has it's tricks, but once you have mastered them, there is no equivalent in my opinion. (I'm alone here though)
In your case, was this my choice, I would glue-up one board at a time, in the rough, matching grain direction and using biscuits for alignment, machined from the top face as a reference. Would use PVA glue and after glue up of all the boards, I would finish with hand planes, while the top is secured to it's frame. This will probably add 1/2 day in time to the job, but it will yield the thickest top and the best finish.
Your boards MUST be well acclimatized before you start.
Were this a production shop, wide belt sanding would be the quickest, but a small guy like me, believes sand paper belongs in a butcher shop.
Willie ,
You are not entirely alone about the glue jointt cutter. I usually just butt my boards, but for a table top of that size and application then out comes the shaper "f" joint cutter block, which in my case is adjustable so better than the router one -which I have not found to give a seamless line.
You have given good advice-perhaps if Geomax does not have a biskwik thingy then it would be better to put in some loose tongues for easy alignment.(I have never had an overwhelming urge to get a biscuit joiner)
Ok we are all together about not ripping QS boards apart only to glue them back together. I can tell you right now that the sawn line will open as it is sawn, so you will loose something while getting the edges back straight. I usually find that if there has been any creep, it is because I have tried to glue a flat sawn up with a QS. The QS will move twice as much across the glue-line as the Flat, which will move twice as much across the face. The point is that a poorly mated glue-line will either show some creep, or it will break the bonds of the glue.I normally by epoxy by the 5 gal. but I don't use it for edge gluing. The long chains of molecules do not penetrate the cell walls, and only have a more or less mold shape adhering to the texture of the face of the cells, and in its raw state, is a little brittle for this purpose. Sometime a little flexibility is not a bad thing. I usually add fillers to get the properties that I want for a given purpose.Mook and Willie need to do yourself a favor and go get yourself a plate jointer. A lot of woodworkers would like to think that they were made to replace a mortise and tenon joint, but what they really excel at is just aligning the face of boards that will be edge glued together. II normally do NOT even put glue on them nor in their slot for edge glue-ups. If the glue-line is better than the wood around it, why bother? Some people complain that they can see glue-print or indentations downstream of finishing, Well Duh! What should one expect when you put about 10 cc of glue into a pocket of wood, then add about 500 PSI or pressure to hydraulically force it into the cells and pores. First it is going to swell the wood because that is what the water does to wood. Then the wood is sanded or planed flat, finished, then after a few months when the moisture is gone from the glue and wood, it shrinks to another dimension. That is just the way it is. Almost everything swells when it is wet and shrinks when it is dry. But I have wandered. If a well mated flat glue-line is stronger than the wood around it once it is fortified with glue, it is really quite pointless to make it any better than that, so why would you want to make it any harder to make the joint.You don't need glue in the biscuits to make the edge glued tops stronger. They are only needed to keep the top edges flush while you get the clamps on.OK I'm through with this soap-box now, Who is next? Keith
Keith,
You are right enough.I still don't have an urge to get a bikky thingy , as I have been doing with my router the same sort of things that a bisqueet joiner does. Strangely enough, when joining tops with loose tongues, I too usually do not put glue on them-or just a token gesture.
If I had cash to burn I think I would be looking at a Dozuki or two or a bronze item from Canada or one of those "kit infill plane sets"-just one so that I could "crib" them in the Japanese way.
You may think you are through with the soap opera-but you have not told us why you buy so much epoxy-are you cheating with those thin turnings now?
Boat work, bent laminations and I like it for veneer work.
geomax,
If it were me,, and the lumber is good and dry, I'd glue up the wide boards without ripping. 16" qtrsawn oak is pretty scarce, I'd want to keep it that way.
I'm comfortable with pva glue for applications like tabletops. Creep is a problem only where the joints are under continuous stress, or when gluing woods with different expansion rates together. Not an issue here, imo. Use splines, biscuits, dowels or whatever, if it makes you feel better, but they aren't necessary if you can make a good glue joint. Titebond or its equivilant will make a bond stronger than the wood, what more do you want?
Regards,
Ray
Geo:
I've used polyurethane glue (the Gorilla brand) on end table tops with no problems.
After jointing and a dry clamp to check it, I moisten both edges with a damp (not wringing wet) cloth, then apply the glue to one surface and clamp.
Foam/squeeze out was planed off with a hand plane, after initially scraping it off with a sharp putty knife.
Hope this is of some use,
Geo,
We just had a big debate over a very similar question. Most people agree it is neither necessary nor desirable to rip wide lumber just so it will fit into your planer... but that was about the end of the agreement!
You could probably find the discussion (which turned into a bit of a flame war for a while) by searching for "wide boards." What I took from it was that there are two completely different approaches:
1. Do all flattening and thicknessing on the boards before glue-up, and use cauls (or a glue joint bit, or splines) to hold the boards in-plane when clamping. After scraping off the squeeze-out, sand or scrape whatever tiny offset might have occured.
2. Only do the most rudimentary flattening on one side of each board before glue-up, and use this partially-jointed face to align the boards. Controversy arose over the question of biscuits or splines... After glue-up, flatten the whole thing with hand planes.
Adherents of each method adamantly maintained their way was best. I gather each works, it is just a matter of how you prefer to work.
I find QSWO to be too much of a challenge for me to smooth with hand planes, so far. Therefore I thickness first, join, and either scrape or sand to finish surface. I use biscuits for alignment, but they don't always work as well as I'd like. A continuous spline (rout a groove with a slot cutter, slice a spline with the TS) would probably be better.
As for glue, either PVA or polyurethane will work fine for this.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
PVA glues can creep even if the joint is not under continual stress, and you've glued up identical species. I have a cabinet top that had some creep that is all cherry. The cabinet sat in my shop for a few months before delivery to an art show. When I delivered it, I felt a slight seam where the glue had squeezed up between the two baords that formed the top. No big deal, it was easy enough to knock it down without damaging the finish.
With table tops, I would not be as concerned. Everyday use will keep any glue that creeps up buffed down. My Kitchen table top is a combination of hard maple, curly and birdeseye, sycamore, elm and some spalted maple. It's 15 years old and still looks the same, glue joints all strong and fine. I do get sick looking at the crappy water based poly finish I slapped on it years ago, and keep wondering when I should refinish the sucker. I think SWMBO would notice a table top missing for a week.
Paul, I'm curious - how did you knock down the glue line without damaging the finish on that cabinet?
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I used an O/V finish, so a little buffing with #0000 steel wool was all that it took. very careful work with a very sharp cabinet scraper will also do it, but that's more risky!Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
I have never seen 'BLACK OAK'
Can you post a PIC for the slabs?
Hey guys.
Great responses! I appreciate the time you all took to toss in your 2 cents. This is a good forum.
I learned that I don't need to sweat the distortion accross the face with QS wood. I learned that regular Titebond type yellow glue should be sufficient for a tabletop with polyurethane as a good alternative. I also learned that everybody has their druthers when it comes to joint alignment.
That said, since I have a 16" planer, it makes sense to me to use it to surface before glueup. Also, since I have a drum sander capable of 36" width, it makes sense to glue the first two boards, then sand, glue the third and sand from that side to the finished thickness of the first two if I need to after glueup. I have a plate joiner, and a drawer lock cutter for my shaper that may double as a glue line cutter. I'm still chewing on that proposition, since I've usually just butted the boards and clamped away. I also am not a pro at smoothing large surfaces with hand planes, and don't really want to practice on this project.
Again I thank you all for your input, and look forward to more comments.
Btw, Black Oak is is an indiginous tree in my area of Oregon. It is probably very close, if not identical to red oak of other areas. I'll snap a couple of pix and post them if I can figure it out.
Black oak is a red oak. There are thirty some oaks lumped into the category of red oak. There are about the same number classified as white oak.LeeMontanaFest
Geomax,
Post a picture when you are done with the sanding and the center and let us know how everything worked out.
Willie
Your response that you have a glue lock cutter for you shaper brought to mind a question that I have about shaper use. I tried to shape an edge to a table top about 5' long and had problems keeping the edge straight. I have a 2 hp. Fox Shop shaper and the fence is only about 18" long. The edge came out a little wavy. I think it is similar to trying to joint a board that is too long for your jointer. Any tips on how to keep the edge perfectly straight as it goes along the shaper ?
I'm sure you'll get some responses on this.
What I do with a long workpiece is to use roller stands at both the infeed and outfeed sides, coupled with some good hold-downs or feather boards. The roller stands support the length of the piece that is off the table, while the hold-downs keep pressure against the fence and / or the table.
There are many types of hold down devices available. If your fence has a T-slot in it you can use a Bench Dog type locking feather board. I also have used the Board Buddy rolling type that is spring loaded and adjustable to differents widths and heights.
Other devices may be placed in your miter guage slot for providing pressure against the fence.
Edited 7/11/2005 3:48 pm ET by geomax
Geomax-
The table top, this is for a side table, is 16" wide and the miter gage slot is covered by the top as I run it past the cutter. I do have T-slots along the top of the fence, but hold downs were not the problem. It isn't absolutely necessary to have a shape along the edge; I'll straighten it out on the table saw, but I need to get if right for the next time. I did use roller stands on the infeed and and out feed sides. I wonder if I could replace the factory fences with longer ones to make this easier? A complaint about this shaper is that the left and right fences are not absolutely parallel. They have to be shimmed and I have not been successful getting them close enough.
This takes a bit of practice, but once you've got it, it works well.
Your boards MUST be flat and in full contact with the shaper table, in front of the knives.
To get a long board straight, I have two MDF fence add-ons braced at their extensions which I only use for this purpose. Align both fences, so that they are parallel to each other and the knife at "TDC" is 0.000 to the fence with a dial gauge. Then back off the infeed fence, until you get a clean cut of the full joint. In theory, this should do the job, but I find I have to tweak the outfeed fence. I do this by cutting a long piece of MDF, until perfectly flat, checked with a straight edge. Once dialed in, I again measure both fences, in reference to the cutter and record these measurements.
So far every time I set up, I go back to my initial measurements and get a perfect straight cut.
Make sure your fence does not flex.
Your discussion of using a longer fence address the question I had. I have some Polyethylene I use for making fences since it is slick and wood slides along it easily, but it isn't very stiff. I also like your suggestion of using a dial indicator to find TDC on the cutter and line the out feed fence up with it. I have a cheap test indicator I bought at HF and a surface gage. I drop the pins on the surface gage into the miter slot and line everything up parallel to that.
I normally use hide glue, but the likelihood of having to unglue a tabletop is fairly remote. Therefore, I'd simply use epoxy. It won't come apart. It might be smart to use a spline to aid registration as Lee pointed out.
I used polyurethane glue for a maple table (30" x 60") a couple of years ago. While I've always been a little skeptical about using "insulation" or "varnish" as glue (what is in that stuff anyway), the table still looks good. It was made from hard maple that has air-dried for about 6 years. No glue lines have opened up and shrinkage was minimal (1/4"=/-). I roughed out the thickness, glued the top and hand planed the top flat - lots of sweat).
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