Replies

1. 
   10fingers | May 23, 2004 07:52pm | #1

   Even if you go ahead and get the Clifton/LN planes, start buying older Stanleys.  The hunt for old planes is fun.  The only new planes I have are the Stanley 92 and the 13-050 with 18 blades that was made in England.  Let the collecting bug bite.  I have several early Stanleys 3-7 with the short front handle.  I love them.   Part of the fun in owning planes is tinkering with them.  My latest find was an early #5 C without the blade assembly I pulled out of a trashcan where I go to school.   They didn't want incomplete planes.

2. 
   Alan | May 24, 2004 01:51am | #2

   RDW,

   I have a "new" Record #7 that I picked up at a widow's sale ten or so years ago.  I don't need a replacement for it.  I sharpened, flattened and otherwise tuned it up and it worked just fine.  Then I got a Clifton iron and two-piece back iron for it and ZOOOOM!  It was hard to believe the difference; the up-grade turned a serviceable plane into a wonderful plane.

   Are the Clifton and Lie-Nielsen planes better than my Record?  I'm sure they are.  But I don't think they're so much better that I should spend all the big bucks to get one.

   As to getting an older plane: because of some experiences with older tools, I don't bother to hunt them down anymore.  If I run across a tool I want, that's in reasonable condition, I'll buy it; but I don't go shopping for a particular tool.  I was shopping for a used jointer for three years before I happened on the widow's sale.  With all the time, gasoline, frustration, etc., I don't think I was ahead at the end (even though the Record was brand new, never used, still in the box, wrapped in heavy plastic and slathered with cosmoline; AND I got it and a brand new Stanley 12-250 combination plane for less than $50.00 for both!)

   Besides taking no pleasure in the hunt, there's also the additional time and money I would have to put in on most older planes.  I would rather spend tune-up time on a new tool.  But that's just me; others will disagree.

   Alan

1. 
   leehold | May 24, 2004 02:49am | #3

   Alan: Your experience of upgrading your record # 7 sounds like a winner.I would like to try the same thing for my Record.  Any suggestions for a convieniet place to buy A Clifton Iron and 2 piece back Iron?  thanks. Lee

1. 
   RDW | May 24, 2004 03:36am | #4

   Lee,

   you can get blades & cap irons at

   traditionalwoodworker.com

   I think it's around $70 for both - Clifton brand.  Sounds like I should do the same for my Record #7

3. 
   CajunDan | May 24, 2004 03:42am | #5

   Sounds like you've done your research. Good! You will not regret having good tools.

   I don't know much about Cliftn, but they have a good reputation. I have about half and half LN and antique Stanleys, most of which are fitted out with Hock blades and cap irons.

   I would make sure that your precision tools, i.e. smoother, rabbet, and L/A block are top quality. It is probably less critical with the #5 jack and jointer, which usually take a medium to coarse cut. I just found an early #8 Stanley which blows away my #7. The extra mass and width are useful, and it leaves a good surface.

   I would add a good quality shoulder plane to your list.

   My most used planes in order :L/N adjustable low angle block, Stanley #93 shoulder plane, Stanley #8 jointer, Stanley #5 jack, LN 4 1/2 smoother, and Record #71 router

   One poster mentioned you should let the collector bug bite. They are right; it is a lot of fun. As long as you spend more on wood than tools (not like me), you don't have a problem. 

   Regards,

   Dan

1. 
   RDW | May 24, 2004 03:55am | #6

   Dan,

   Just was looking at the LN 60 1/2 low angle block plane....

   I assume the #93 shoulder plane is for rabbets, tenons, etc.........?

   Edited 5/23/2004 9:42 pm ET by rdw

1. 
   CajunDan | May 24, 2004 08:38pm | #8

   Hi, rdw

   Yes, the LN 60 1/2 in the handiest tool in my shop. I use it for evening rails and stiles, fine-tuning miters, chamfering and rounding edges, and smoothing small surfaces.

   The #93 is Stanley's large shoulder plane. LN, Clifton, and Veritas make better ones, but it works surprisingly well. A shoulder plane will allow you to cut your tenons slightly oversize and shave a little at a time until you get an exact fit. An amazing tool, really. Once you start using one, your joinery will take a quantum leap.

   I haven't found any use for my bullnose planes, yet. (Even though I own two.)

   Taunton Press's The Handplane Book is a great reference, if you don't have it already.

   Regards,

   Dan

1. 
   RDW | May 24, 2004 09:21pm | #10

   I've been pouring over that handplane book by Garret Hack over the last 2 weeks!!!

   thanks for the suggestions!

   The LN 60 1/2 Low angle block will be in my first purchase.  I'm going to get a new Hock blade for my record #7,  flatten the sole, file the frog, and see how it works for some glue-up edges and such.

   Man -  I'm going to need a real workbench!! lol..........

1. 
   Alan | May 25, 2004 01:46am | #11

   rdw,

   Clifton tools, including irons and back irons, can be found at just about all the on-line and catalog outfits.  I know Highland Hardware, Garret-Wade, and Woodcraft have them.  They're not hard to find.

   Pardon me if this is wrong, but as I was skimming through this thread I thought I saw the smoother/jointer confusion.  Many people aren't clear on the jobs those tools are meant to do.

   In short: to 'flatten' is not the same as to 'smooth.'  Jointers flatten, and smoothers (surprise!) smooth.  So to flatten an edge to make a glued-up panel you would use a jointer; but to flatten the face of that panel you would also use the #7 (or #8).

   Once you have the board dimensioned, using a scrub plane and/or a jack, you need to flatten it.  A plane with a long sole is for flattening.  A smoothing plane would ride up and down the high spots, taking a nice, long shaving, but the stock wouldn't be flat.  Once the stock is dimensioned and flattened, then you use the smoothing plane.

   Alan

2. 
   RDW | May 25, 2004 02:38am | #12

   Thanks for the clarification.......the #7 does seem like a versatile plane.

   BTW,  to flatten my #7 Record:

   I've got a sheet of 1/2 glass about 2 feet long - is this big enough to "tune the sole" of this long plane?  I was going to use #220 - 320 grit SC paper with some WD-40 sprayed on it.  Butt joint a couple of sheets of the sandpaper together using 3M adhesive and off I go?

   Obviously the glass is big enough to work on an old Bailey #4 sole...........

   Thanks!

   Roy

3. 
   Alan | May 26, 2004 12:24am | #18

   RDW,

   The length of your glass sounds a little short to me to be flattening the bottom of a 22" long plane.  If you keep all of the plane's sole on the paper/glass (as you should) you would be able to move the plane only 2" at a time.  I think I would be steaming with frustration long before I finished the job.

   Alan

   Edited 5/25/2004 5:28 pm ET by Alan

4. 
   CajunDan | May 25, 2004 04:27am | #13

   I assume you were refering to my reference that my Stanley #8 left a good surface. What I meant was the antique Stanley was acceptable for jointer type work.

   Of course you are right that a smoother is used for smoothing, and a jointer for jointing. However, since a jointer is often the last plane used before the smoother, you don't want one that leaves a lot of tearout.

   I am sorry if I did not make that clear.

   Regards,

   Dan

5. 
   Alan | May 26, 2004 12:48am | #19

   Dan,

   My apologies.

   I was reacting to your post where you wrote:

   It [a quality plane] is probably less critical with the #5 jack and jointer, which usually take a medium to coarse cut.

   I don't use my jointer to make either coarse or medium cuts.  When I'm working on the face of a board I do all the leveling I can with a jack, which has a sole long enough to get things pretty flat.  Only then do I drag out a jointer.

   BTW, I thought it was Ron who wrote that.

   Alan

6. 
   CajunDan | May 26, 2004 08:43pm | #23

   Hi, Alan

   Lately, I have been using the #8 more and more where I used to use a jack, such as preliminary flattening. When you get close to the line, just retract for finer and finer cuts until it is dead flat. Then switch to a smoother.

   I joint with what I call a medium cut. Nowhere near what you'd take with a smoother.

   Hence, I use the jointer for coarse to medium cuts.

   Regards,

   Dan

7. 
   RDW | May 28, 2004 05:58am | #25

   Dan,

   A fellow experienced woodworker has several LN tools.  He thought I should get the LN 60 1/2 -Rabbet (LA).  He feels it has totally replaced his regular LN 60 1/2 (LA) because it does the same things PLUS a great way to fit Tenons & other joinery applications.  While not suitable to replace a larger rabbet plane, its great for end grain and trimming joinery. Sounds logical to me - what do you guys think?

   Kinda like a bonus mini shoulder plane??

   Roy

8. 
   CajunDan | Jun 05, 2004 12:03am | #28

   Hi, Roy

   I was at a woodworking show this spring at the Lie-Neilson booth when someone asked about that. The company rep sort of hemmed and hawwed and said that you lose the advantage of the adjustable mouth. So I don't know.

   It sounds logical, though. I just hope it's not too much of a compromise.

   I have thought about using the LA block to make fielded panels, so I might try one soon. If I do, I'll let you know.

   Don't feel like you need to buy all your tools at once. Better to buy them as you need them.

   Regards,

   Dan

9. 
   RDW | Jun 05, 2004 05:58am | #29

   Dan,

   Yea, I've talked to some local guys and they all think the LN LA - Rabbet block plane is excellent; and so good that I don't need the veritas LA blk or the veritas medium shoulder plane.  The veritas shoulder plane only has a 3/4" blade so it has no adv. over the LN LA blk-R.  I've heard that veritas is planing on a larger blade shoulder plane (1.5 inch) later this year - so if I find I must need it I'll get that one.  As of now I'll skip those two and save me $238.00!!!

   I probably don't need the square edger but I've seen it work and it's pretty slick.

   I'm just want to get good tools.  Yes,  I know I could save 75% buy getting some Baileys and such - but I don't like (or have the time) to fiddle - I want to make projects for my wife & daughter that are quality (and from Dad, you know).  These planes are very good, and a pleasure to work with.  I won't miss the money after a few years with these...........

   At least I'm not buying a set of Infills and such............

   Roy

10. 
    HeavyD | Jun 05, 2004 06:56am | #30

    RDW,  I have come to the conclusion that you have two choices. Buy old stuff and tinker and woodwork or buy the best and woodwork. If you like to tinker on stuff and collect stuff that is old then buy old stuff and tinker.  If you want to enjoy the experience of woodworking and have that be the experience then buy any of the really good ones and go make shavings and forget about the money and know that every time you pick up that particular tool it makes you feel warm and fuzzy.  I don't own a lot of tools, but my very supportive and wonderful wife bought me a LN low angle block and I almost put it under my pillow.  If you haven't used a LN yet then go use one and just close your eyes and make shavings. You won't ever go back, I PROMISE.  You will feel guilty for letting these kind of tools collect dust. I have never used a clifton and I like the handles better than veritas as mentioned above. So buy what feels right and make your wife and daughter happy.

    dave

11. 
    RANGERP75R | Jun 07, 2004 02:09am | #32

    Roy

       "The Veritas medium shoulder only has a 3/4" iron so it has no advantage over .............."

       The iron is .005 narrower than 3/4" and if you do a lot of dadoes in 3/4" or 15/16 it is perfect for cleaning the bottom of those dadoes. Other than smaller projects with smaller tenons, my Veritas sees most of it's traffic with the bottom of dadoes. I have been known to cut short dadoes with the medium shoulder using a clamped on block as a fence on the non-protruding side. Just for fun and hand only projects.

       Shoulder planes are in-dispensible and thier uses are pretty much limited by the imagination of the craftsman.

    Regards...

    sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   RDW | May 24, 2004 04:11am | #7

   Dan-----

   Also thanks for your list and order; very helpful.  Yours seems logical since I'll probably still buy Surfaced lumber.  I don't want a power jointer......would rather run the #7 (or #8) over two edges and then flip one and glue.  I'll look up these other planes to educate myself.

   Roy

3. 
   RDW | Jun 03, 2004 02:10am | #26

   How about this list to get it all done:

   These are all premium tools but I think I've got a good mix for saving some $$$ without losing quality:

   1)  L/N 60.5-R :adjustable low angle block-rabbet, $140

   2)  Veritas LA Block $99

   3)  Veritas Medium Shoulder Plane  $139

   4)  Veritas Edge Plane   $125

   5)  Record #7 jointer  (this one I have, thankfully $0) 

   6)  LN 5 1/2 -  $295   ( or LA Jack?)

   7)  LN 4 1/2 smoother   -  $265

   8)  some used scrapers  -  $25

   Yes - that's $1k..................

   Or pick up #4,  #5 Baileys for $10 each...That would save  a quick $500!!!

   Better yet, I could always buy s4s lumber and never get the LN 5 1/2!!!

   Thanks,

   Roy

   Edited 6/2/2004 11:42 pm ET by rdw

1. 
   CajunDan | Jun 04, 2004 11:25pm | #27

   Sounds good, but why two Low Angle block planes?

   Dan

2. 
   ian | Jun 05, 2004 05:27pm | #31

   Roy

   here's my comments:

   1)  L/N 60.5-R :adjustable low angle block-rabbet, $140  nice plane but not part of your essential kit.  Note that the mouth is not adjustable.  Get it later

   2)  Veritas LA Block $99   I've got 4 low angle blocks and will get at least one more.  You need one with an adjustable mouth and given that you already have a #7, get it next

   3)  Veritas Medium Shoulder Plane  $139   yes you will need a shoulder plane

   4)  Veritas Edge Plane   $125   also a nice plane (I have the R/H and L/H LN versions) but not part of your essential kit.  Ultimately you will need two, a R/H and a L/H version.

   5)  Record #7 jointer  (this one I have, thankfully $0) 

   6)  LN 5 1/2 -  $295   ( or LA Jack?)   personal choice here between a #5, #5-1/2 or #6.  LA jack is a different plane.

   7)  LN 4 1/2 smoother   -  $265   or #4, with or without the high angle frog

   8)  some used scrapers  -  $25

   My ordering of this list is:1)  either a #5-1/2 or #6 or a Terry Gordon wodden bodied plane of similar length.  These will work as a jointer for anything up to about 3 ft long and you can use a shooting board for longer stuff.  2)  low angle adjustable mouth block plane – at a pinch the #164 will work as a block plane but it needs two hands whereas a true block can be worked one handed.  3)  shoulder plane – wider and/or longer is not necessarily better, it all depends on the size of your tenon.  What you want to avoid is a plane that is so wide and/or long that the tenon shoulder is cut at an angle because most of the plane is in space.  4)  smoother — look at #4, #4-1/2, #62 (LA Jack) or #164 (LA smoother).   If you go the #4 or #4-1/2 route a HA frog may be useful if you want to work on highly figured wood.  If you go with a LA route definitely get a second blade and grind a steep bevel on it to get an effective cutting angle equivalent to a HA frog.  I was using a #164 at a show yesterday and it is one nice plane.  5)  hand scrapers6)  one of the speciality planes.  The list is vast so you're best off collecting them as projects require them.  

   Ian

4. 
   BHerman | May 24, 2004 09:01pm | #9

   Don't lose track of the Lee Valley Veritas planes - just got their new bullnose small shoulder plane, and it is excellent - and well-priced, too!

5. 
   KyleZ | May 25, 2004 04:57am | #14

   I am a big fan of L-N planes, and I would recommend getting at least one.  However, I think one could argue for a long time that Steve Knight offers the highest quality for the money he charges of any planemaker out there.

   http://www.knight-toolworks.com

   He usually has some on Ebay that you can pick up rather inexpensively (around $100 for a coffin smother with a 1/4" thick blade.)

   Cheers

   Kyle

6. 
   AugieFrise | May 25, 2004 05:36am | #15

   Have you read James Krenov's The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking? 

   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1402714165/ref=sib_rdr_dp/102-1895698-0000963?%5Fencoding=UTF8&no=283155&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books

   That book, (besides being a near-religious experience in general), cured me for all time of the need/urge to buy hyper-expensive planes, chisels, and the like. 

   After reading and absorbing Krenov, my little 7" Stanley, which cost me about $15 brand new in 1998, makes beautiful shavings you can practically read through -- using the same blade and breaker that came with the tool.  (I did make one change -- I removed that little lever that tilts the blade from side to side and tossed it in the garbage.) 

   The secret?

   1.  The blade is sharpened correctly;

   2.  The blade and breaker are installed correctly. 

   That's it. 

   Augie

   ps  I realize that there is nothing quite so obnoxious as a "true believer" -- so please forgive me if I come across as a jerk.  I don't mean to. 

1. 
   RDW | May 25, 2004 06:19am | #16

   Augie,

   No offense taken - I enjoy knowledge!!

   Looks like I'll pick up your book recommendation next when I return Hack's "the handplane book" @ local library...........

   I realize even the LN could take a turn for the worse if I can't keep the blade sharp......so I'm practicing with my old Stanly #4 for now. You hit a critical issue on the head.

1. 
   jroy | May 25, 2004 04:01pm | #17

   i got an old stanley#4 that came from a school that got rid of its woodworking program (cost me $2.00)..i spent a rainy afternoon tuning it up and replaced the blade with a Hock replacement...there is nothing better then listening to the sound of it cutting thru a piece of cherry with nice thin curly shavings showering the floor........ 

2. 
   RDW | May 28, 2004 05:51am | #24

   Augie,

   Can you elaborate more on your sharpening techniques and chip breaker position?

7. 
   jquinn | May 26, 2004 04:00am | #20

   Fine Tool Journal 2 issues back did a review (I think by C. Schwartz - sp? - from Popular Woodworking magazine)  of Clifton planes, and found several problems with fit and finish - concluding that overall, not what one would expect for the price range.

1. 
   Lar55 | May 26, 2004 04:31pm | #22

   Not the case with the Clifton's I have.  Fit, finish and performance equals L-N's in my experience.  L-N's handles are a bit more comfortable though.

8. 
   corners | May 26, 2004 07:29am | #21

   One of my favourite and most used planes is my Clifton #3.

   Super quality and very usefull - sort of a big block plane with real handles.