Replies

1. 
   Marcello | Jan 07, 2003 06:24pm | #1

   Use the planer to achieve the two flat surfaces on a wide board.  Move it to the jointer and joint the two remaining narrow edges.  Now you have edges at 90 deg to one another.   That is all you need - don't try to joint the face of a 12" wide board on the jointer because you may get slightly different angles across the width, meeting at a high or low point in the center, and/or, both sides divided by a narrow ridge.  If the boards are too cupped, you can resaw them into halves or thirds and produce narrower but thicker stock.  Repeat planer/jointer process.

   Marcello

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 07, 2003 06:40pm | #3

   The trouble with what you propose Marcello, is that running a rough sawn board through a planer doesn't get timber flat. Planers would perhaps be better understood if they were universally called thicknessers or thickness planers as they are in the UK, for that's all they do-- they get timber down to a uniform thickness. I was taught the saying regarding thicknessers, "Banana in. Banana out. Thinner banana." It's a valid expression.

   Like Lee, who made good points, it gets my goat if I'm asked to pay full price for an item that patently isn't the full piece. For example, 4/4" 'hit and miss' planed as it's called is usually something less than a full inch, and if I want to get 3/4" or 7/8"  thick parts out of it, I'm pretty much out of luck and need to buy 5/4" which costs more. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.

1. 
   LeeGrinding1 | Jan 07, 2003 06:54pm | #4

   True, true, Sgian, a planer will not straighten lumber. The machines that claim to are known as "Strait-o-planers" and such and are a huge investment for mills running in the tens of thousands of dollars and still doing a piss poor job of straightening lumber. These are very different machines that what we use in our workshops.

   Robbbo, rough sawn 4/4 stock is a full inch after drying. Mills generally saw 4/4 stock at 1 1/8", 8/4 at 2 1/4", etc. to make sure they have the full dimension after drying. Shrinkage must be taken into account when sawing.

   Lee Lee Grindinger

   Furniture Carver

2. 
   Marcello | Jan 07, 2003 08:09pm | #5

   Live a little, learn a little.  Banana in, banana out, ha ha.  Yes, I understand that concept, but without having a wide enough jointer that is the best I can do and I thought that was part of the question - not having enough $$ to buy the big jointers.  I have been able to straighten slightly warped boards on tops with a belt sander and/or hand planer.   I aggree with what you and Lee are saying - I feel better buying rough stock and mill it to my project's needs.  I did miss the point that robbbo would like to make and sell some S4S lumber commercially.  I have a feeling the motors of a 6" jointer and 12.5" planer will burn out if demand is high.

   Marcello 

1. 
   floman47 | Jan 08, 2003 12:44am | #6

   You can't sell full-length lumber 10' to 14' jointed flat.  You sell it thickness planed only or S2S.  when you go to a local hardwood store the wood they sell is just planed not jointed first, banana in banana out (Richard you know this is going to catch on).  If I was going to make a table top 8' long I would probably have to start with hand picked 5/4 material to get 3/4" jointed flat then plained wood.  you always rough-cross cut your material to it's shortest length before you joint and plane it.

   Jeff in so cal

   82 f---30%

1. 
   Marcello | Jan 08, 2003 12:54am | #7

   "You can't sell full-length lumber 10' to 14' jointed flat. "

   Again, I missed the robbbo's point about making and selling the wood.  I thought his question was how to use the planer and jointer that he has without going to the expense of purchasing larger equipment.  I goofed. 

2. 
   floman47 | Jan 08, 2003 01:07am | #8

   I goofed, I ment to post it to Robbbo.

   Jeff in so cal

3. 
   Marcello | Jan 08, 2003 02:08am | #9

   oops!!! :-)

4. 
   forestgirl | Jan 08, 2003 04:51am | #12

   TM -- I don't think you missed the point -- he never actually said what he was doing with the wood.  The responders in the thread are assuming he's milling the wood to sell, near as I can tell.  I came back to this thread to see if the original question had been clarified at all.  Nope.  Still don't know for sure what the end purpose is.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

5. 
   Splintie | Jan 08, 2003 09:24am | #13

   I suppose my answer would vary depending on whether Robbo is milling pine for wide-plank flooring or birdseye maple.

   I wonder if we can all agree what we have here is an elephant...

6. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 08, 2003 10:34am | #14

   He did, fg. he said that he is converting trees into rough sawn planks using a chainsaw mill. He was wondering if, after careful(?) seasoning on his part of the raw product (timber) if a thickness planer-- or a jointer working with a thickness planer might make his product more attractive, by being able to offer nicely squared material. And if he were to pursue this option, what machines (or maybe only one machine) should he buy?

   The answer is, of course, that he'd be wasting his time buying one without the other (jointer and planer.) He'd really need a machine at least capable of planing a face and squaring an edge square in one pass, and those machines cost tens of thousands of dollars new, and something less secondhand.

   The concescus amongst the professionals is that we would rather buy truly rough sawn, full thickness, seasoned timber that has not been mucked about with. Professionals loathe 'hit'n'miss' planed timber. It's done for the convenience of the saw mills, the shippers, etc., and the excuse offered by the seller at the end is that the buyer can see what they're buying, which is a load of cobblers.

   It isn't flat It was never squared properly in the first place, and even if it was squared properly some 2,000 miles away in PA., the stuff certainly isn't square by the time I buy it three months later down in Texas. And as I mentioned earlier, it really sticks in my craw when a timber wholesaler or retailer wants me to pay extra to buy 4/4 timber that has been  hit'n'miss' 'planed' "flat."

   In judging rough sawn material, some buyers can't see what they're buying for the simple reason that they don't have the training, experience or knowledge to 'read' what's going on underneath the rough surface. In the same way, I didn't study accountancy in depth at college, and therefore, I'd expect to be a bit less sharp than a trained and qualified accountant would be if presented with a sundry balance sheet, or a random profit and loss statement.

   (Enron's smoke and mirrors trick springs to mind as a counterpoint to that last assertion of course. But, maybe apparently, their accountants, Anderson, had a 'flexible' approach regarding the immutability of numbers-- , ha, ha.) Slainte.

   Some stuff I've made.

7. 
   ian | Jan 08, 2003 02:33pm | #15

   Without an indication of whether Robbo is a home user or looking to wholesale, I think the core question is "the thicknesser I can afford is much wider than the jointer I can afford, what is the widest finished stock I can produce?"  --  the two responses I can think of are: after drying 1   use a hand plane to flatten one side, then put the stock through the widest thichnesser you can afford, preferablely a 20 in.2   use a sled to support the stock so that one side is flattened by the wide thicknesser.  FWW has covered this at least once in the last 5 years (ie since I became a subscriber). However, I have no experience with using a thicknesser and sled.  Can you or FG comment on its practicality?

   Ian

8. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 09, 2003 01:38am | #19

   The sled thing to flatten rough material through a thicknesser can be done, Ian. From a quick, cost effective, and profitable throughput point of view, it's a non starter.

   I've flattened a few boards this way under instruction from a hand tool averse employer, and believe me, by the time you've piddled about setting up the rig and levelling the board on it, you can often do the job as swiftly with a hand powered scrub plane and try plane. Naturally you have to know how to sharpen and use hand planes and straight edges, and winding sticks, skills that that particular boss had never mastered. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.

9. 
   Splintie | Jan 09, 2003 02:13am | #21

   I love the idea of flat stock, i really do, but reading this i feel i must be the only person ever faced with a finite amount of lumber and furniture that had to be built with it, or a rainy spell outside a shop that wasn't hermetically sealed. 

10. 
    fdampier5 | Jan 09, 2003 06:19am | #22

    I think it really depends a lot on who is using the wood and for what purpose.

        If I stuff a reasonably flat board into one end of my planer   I can expect a reasonably flat chunk to come out the other end..  I take that board and use it for flooring or paneling and I'm happy..   However I've nerver attempted to make the kind of furniture some of you do so I must be a hack..  That's OK I'm really not offended. I just know my limitations..

      If I want to put two or more boards together I'll run one edge  over my jointer first, then I'll clamp em together and run them on edge thru the planer to wind up with the same width....

      Ain't rocket science but seems to work for me...

2. 
   LeeGrinding1 | Jan 07, 2003 06:24pm | #2

   I'm a veteran , Robbo, and I'd pass your lumber over if it was surfaced. There is a market for surfaced lumber but every professional I know would prefer rough lumber.

   The tools used to surface lumber are planers meant to "straighten" as they surface but anyone whose been in this business very long knows the frustation of not having enough thickness left in a board to actually straighten, I mean straighten, the board once it's back to the workshop.

   Any tool you'd be looking at to do a remotely adequate job of straightening the wood as it gets surfaced would run into the tens of thousands of dollars.

   From a professional woodworker's viewpoint you'd be much better advised to invest in a kiln and offer kiln dried, rough sawn lumber.

   People that prefer surfaced lumber haven't learned to observe grain in rough sawn boards. It takes a bit of practice to learn this but mostly it's exposure.

   The practice of surfacing lumber for market is driven by the suppliers. These suppliers ship less weight and neater stacks if they surface it first. I, and many like me, shop for yards that sell lumber in the rough.

   You'll probably hear a much different line from hobbiests so you need to figure out who you're going to sell your lumber to and cater to their needs.

   Lee

   Lee Grindinger

   Furniture Carver

3. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 08, 2003 02:35am | #10

   robbbo -

   Are you using, or selling, the lumber?

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
   PlaneWood

1. 
   robbbo65 | Jan 08, 2003 04:25pm | #16

   Thanks for all the help.  Perhaps a few clarifications/statements would help.  My saw is a bandmill capable of cutting up to a 29" diameter log, resulting in the occasional wide board.  I hope to not only sell some wood but also use it myself.  I understand the "banana in/banana out" analogy hence the question regarding jointers.  Whether I am the seller or the buyer how would one deal with say a 12" wide board.  The Tools & Shops issue seems to indicate the need for both a jointer and planer to have truly flat/square/thicknessed lumber.  If this is true does the jointer have to be at least as wide as the widest board to be finished?  I can't believe everyone has a jointer of this magnitude unless they are always working with 6" or 8" material thus requiring a smaller jointer.  Would a planer only work with sufficiently long infeed/outfeed tables (table length equal or greater than stock length)?  Run the material through "bow" down until the planer has taken material off end to end then turn the material for a parallel thicknessing cut.  I see that most woodworkers seem to prefer dried rough sawn lumber, and this will probably be my approach as a wood seller, but at some point a wide board needs to be finished by someone, unless standard practice is to rip wide boards to accomodate the jointer and glue narrow finished material for wider requirements.  Thanks again for any help.

1. 
   AlanTurner | Jan 08, 2003 11:54pm | #17

   I used to use a sled on my planer since I was jointerless.  It worked quite well, but was slow and combersome.  I will do it again, however, if I have a need to flatten more than 12" (my planer is 20").    If you want to learn more about the sled device, there are several threads/comments on this forum aobut it, perhaps from July or August.

2. 
   fredsmart48 | Jan 09, 2003 12:08am | #18

   What I do is this.

   Cut both end of the boards and leave a little longer then finished length and put it then stack it and stick it put a lot of weight on top for a week or two let it dance.

   After two weeks I straighten the edges .

   Now I also make two rails that are been run through a jointer so I have one edge and face true

   I glue then to the wide board and let stand over night.

   Now place the straight rails on the infeed of the planer and you end up able to get a straight board running it through the planer the rails are proud of the top to start with.

   After you get one side flat and straight you turn the board over and do the other side.

   When your are done you just cut of the rest of the rails.

3. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 09, 2003 01:59am | #20

   The ideal set up is  to own an overhand surface planer (aka jointer) that is the same width as your thicknesser (aka planer.) This way you have a matched capability. If you must flatten  material that is wider than any machines available, the only recourse is hand tools, i.e., hand planes. With hand planes you can flatten and true any sized piece of wood you like.

   Most structural parts are less than 75 mm (3") square, so most woodworkers can handle these dimensions on their machines. It's only when you start working with table tops, cabinet tops, and carcass parts that you run out of machining capability. Table tops and cabinet tops are usually planted on as an extra to the frame, and more often than not they don't have to be perfect. Slight bowing, cupping, etc., can be lived with by holding down strategies.

   With a cabinet carcass part, such as a cabinet side, maybe 24" wide, then it becomes more important that it's straight and true because these items are critical to the structures overall integrity. The part might be one piece of timber (unlikely) or a few narrower pieces joined together. Most furniture makers will join the narrower pieces together into widths that their machines can handle until a final glue up of just two or three already edged jointed parts is done to create the full width.

   Any ridges and discrepancies remaining after the final glue up have to be dealt with by old fashioned hand working skills-- i.e., back to those hand planes again, ha, ha. But if you're planning to sell some of your dried timber, I'd suggest you sell it full thickness, and rough sawn. Furniture makers (and other woodworkers) trying to make a living in the trade appreciate having the full thickness to work with. Slainte.  Some stuff I've made.

4. 
   crt2cu2 | Jan 10, 2003 11:22am | #26

   robbbo,

   Speaking only from my point of view as a woodworker, ie end user.  The issue is not necessarily how to machine a board to appropriate dimension; rather, the issues are grain appearance (figure), grain orientation (flat sawn vs quartesawn), and ultimate use of the stock such as paint grade opposed to stain grade (a 'vast comparison').  If you are making lumber 'in the rough' then it is up to the buyer to pick the correct end use of same.  I would hope that you know how to cut a log for the best possible yield per board foot.  Most experienced woodworkers would really appreciate any log cut on the bole specific to their needs.  Turners want thick and dry stock, furniture makers want grain matched, framing carpenters want dimensional consistency, and finish carpenters want predictable dimensions.  Instrument makers want quartersawn and floorers want maximum yield, cabinet makers want lots of lumber for face frames, rails, stiles, panels, and trim.  Your challenge is to suit your logs (species?) to the appropriate market.  That being said, maybe it is not your task of worrying how to dimension any particular board if you are producing rough lumber only (except for specific uses) wide and long stock can be dimensioned in many ways by the end user.

   sawick

   sawick

1. 
   user-274461 | Jan 10, 2003 08:01pm | #27

   Robbo,

   All the people who have responded certainly know what they are talking about but as a few have already suggested, I don't think your question has been clearly and succinctly answered.   Since your jointer will probably never be as wide as your planer, I recommend you do this:

   1) stabilize the wood before you do any straightening - use a kiln, stack in your yard for a year or two, whatever.  Don't attempt to flatten until this is done.

   2) If you are selling the lumber, sell it rough - most woodworkers want it that way, and most don't mind a little warping.

   3)  After drying, if the board needs to be flattened and it is wider than your jointer, you can either: a) cut the board into narrower pieces (then joint and plane); b) flatten one side with a scrub plane and winding sticks and then run it though your planer, c) or use a sled or edge guides as some have suggested.  If you are dealing with large quantities, the latter may be time consuming.  

   note: Small distortions in a board can probably be planed out without a jointer.  use double stick tape to apply some shims to the under side of the board if necessary.  I've done this successfully without a sled.  Good Luck!

4. 
   fdampier5 | Jan 08, 2003 04:40am | #11

   I'd keep most of my stock rough since so many want to do-it-yourself.   Have several pieces avaliable for those who want finished wood..

     I've put 20,000 bd.ft. of wood through my 20 inch Grizzley. I did break one $3.00 drive belt and have sharpened the blades several times.. another words a decent deal.

     I Use the Grizzley 8 inch jointer to straighten the edge and use care when stacking to avoid as much banana as possible.  Long infeed/ outfeed tables are needed to work with the 10,12, 18 foot long pieces that I use

5. 
   biosf1 | Jan 09, 2003 07:25am | #23

   I'm a professional furniture builder and I've never  bought lumber that's surfaced on one side or has one striate edge ,but if your determined that planed lumber sells better than ,buy a commercial rip saw and a good 18"to 20" planer, I have a woodmaster 18" planer and will change to a sander , I use a steel striate edge on my table saw to get one side true before I size the lumber for withe. I put up my own lumber and have it milled by a portable band saw mill, If it is stickered properly and weighted it might still come out with a little bow, so if you don't sell the right away after truing the edge, it may not be true by the time it sells.( Save your self the headache.)

6. 
   bill_1010 | Jan 09, 2003 08:00pm | #24

   the main thing about selling s4s/planed lumber is that your palner will eventually dull leaving half of your lumber ok, the other half with a less then desired planed wood. Your wood thicknesses will vary with each run regardless of how well you plan and measure, think Murphy's Law. 

   If i were you, id have the option of planing/surfacing lumber.  This way you could bill for your time rather then incorporate it into your retail wares.   This custom milling/planing style approach might be better tailored to your business.  This will also let you judge the demand somewhat. 

7. 
   crt2cu2 | Jan 10, 2003 10:53am | #25

   robbbo,

   You have received some remarkable advice from the experts of this forum,yet I wonder if your questions have truly been answered.  The wierd thing about written communication is that any reader may misinterpret the writer's intent and of course a writer may struggle in delivering an accurate message.  I interpreted you asking basically about how to mechanically convert rough sawn lumber to finished/usable dimensions perhaps suitable for furniture building use.  You also stated that you are "new to woodworking".  Forgive me if I miss the point but it feels like you are blending the tasks of sawyer, grader, kiln operator, and retailer.  These multifunctions certainly are possible among the talented folks of this forum.  Please help us help you by revealing more info about your lumber production goals, types of wood being bandsawn, end user potentials, et al. 

   For example, if you are producing flat sawn green pine from your bandsaw mill then perhaps a better information source would be from log home builders and the like.  However, if you are sawing "generally rough cut material up to 12" (your words), and the material happens to be walnut,cherry, honduran mahogany or cocobolo, then I claim first rights to all you produce regardless of jointer/planer concerns <G>.

   Seriously though, the advice from other posts are true.  It may be wiser to invest first in a kiln operation then perhaps later in machinery.  Ya gotta get the wood stable first.

   sawick