Replies

1. 
   crt2cu2 | Jan 15, 2003 09:37am | #1

   Chuck,

   I am in the same boat as you-trying to decide whether I should purchase separate machines or a combo for my small shop.  I am still researching the various manufacturers: Felder, Hammer, MiniMax, Laguna/Robland et al and so far have found that each machine has both benefits and drawbacks.  Laguna and Hammer will send you free videos,  MiniMax is supposed to have a video out soon as well.  I found that by watching the videos several times; using a very critical eye, and careful perusal of the catalogs reveal important considerations.  For example, the Hammer seems like a fantastic tool for the money but also requires one to buy all the tooling in European dimension (millimeters).  That means if I need a certain saw blade one day I have to order it from Hammer or the American company importing same and wait for the mail to arrive.  I also noticed that many combos seem limited in rip capacity which may be a problem if one works a lot of sheet goods, even with the accessory sliding tables.  220 single phase power is a minimum requirement for your shop as well and the bigger combos require 3 phase.  All companies seem to sell out of distant locations which worries me if I need parts or have any problems.  To further substantiate my worries, check out the thread in this forum voicing numerous complaints about Laguna Tools.  The major drawback I have noticed is in the changeovers- jointer or planer use requires complete lowering of the planer feature thus accuracy/repeatability may be an issue, setting up the shaper robs access to the jointer/planer and tablesaw, and overall one would have to create some sort of bench to store the combo accessories when they are not used.  Thus, such storage issues mean that space could have been originally used for a traditional stationary tool.  Finally, combo machines are built in such a way that only one person can use any tool feature at any given time.  Needless to say I am still carefully pondering the purchase of a combo.

   sawick

1. 
   ChuckDiPerri | Jan 15, 2003 04:04pm | #2

   Sawick,

   Thanks for responding to my concern about moving onto a Combo.

   I use an INCA Jointer/Planer and the change over is really quick and it is always aligned perfectly.

   The other thing is that I purchased everything from Garrett Wade. The staff there is very knowledgeable and whenever I needed a part it was always at my shop door in the next day. I have been dealing with Remote Location Serving for over 10 years. The secret is to chat with one of their reps and befriend them. Share ideas and topics that both of you have in common. Send a Christmas Card to the staff. This kind og Bonding has helped me greatly. My INCA machines have been serving me for about 10 Year. Perfect accurate and repeatable every time. At first I was skeptical about the Machines built with Aluminium and they looked so different than the Other Manufacturers but after I got my hands on them I don't know what to go to now that space is beginning to be a problem with Separates. The MiniMAX seems to be built well and also I have conversed with the rep Karl Knapp. He is a wood worker and he seemed to know my line of machinery as well. Carl is offering to put me in contact with some people here in my local area who use the MINIMAX machine that I am interested in moving up to. I'll go there and just monitor how it works for the other wood worker and then ask if I can just move things around & if I can cut a piece of wood that Ihave brought with me. If he accomodates great if he doesn't well nothing ventured nothing gained.

   Laguna has been around for a while and the Knapp is an expensive machine some of the things that Torbin illusrates means nothing to me when it comes to woodworking on a machine. So I want to witness the MINIMAX and see what they have to offer.

   Chuck

2. 
   MAP | Jan 15, 2003 05:20pm | #3

   Hi!

   I'm giving thought to the Inca line,

   you mentioned you were pleased with the jointer /planer and table saw, could you tell me please which models you have? Are there any negative aspects of these machines ?

3. 
   BenchMarkPhil | Jan 15, 2003 10:19pm | #4

    

   Chuck,

   Here are a few observations, these address some of the points made by Sawick as well:

    If you are looking at the CU300 then you should log on to the MiniMax forum on Yahoo Groups (and the others as well).

    There definitely are pros and cons to each brand and to a good degree you can find many of these issues using Sawick’s “critical eye”; you should do this sort of detailed homework.  I suggest you pay close attention to three-phase issues, dado, tool size (shaper), and other items you deem important.

    You can avoid some of the combo issues by separating the J/P from the saw shaper.  This would also allow you to mix brands and I think it offers more layout flexibility as well.

    Specific to the Hammer (or Felder), aside from the 30mm saw bore, there aren’t any other metric issues.

    A lot of the combo units have rip fences limited to about 30”, the separate saw / shapers about 48” or so.  This really isn’t that big of a problem because you’ll want to cut most of your sheet goods using the slider, this is backwards from a non-slider saw.

    I have quite a bit of Euro machine info on my site if you are interested.

    PMB

   http://benchmark.20m.com

4. 
   wop | Jan 16, 2003 12:34am | #5

          I've used combination machines for years, first I had a MiniMax U-31(model before the cu 30 ca.1985) then a cu 35. Now I have a felder CF-731.

      The major reason I stick with combination machines is space. Some operations of change over from one operation to another take time; not much, but it is not like having separate machines where you can leave the set up and then find it as you left it 5 minutes ago. For example to change from thickness planer to jointer you have to lower the bed of the planer to 19cm, thats lots of cranking.

         With felder tooling is no problem they also make shaper spindles in imperial measures and saw blades can be acquired to fit from and good quality producer(CMT,Freud,forrest, etc....).

      As far as comparing Mini-Max to Felder (the only two brands I consider worth anything) both are excellent machines. To get the same quality of machine as a felder CF-731 you have to look at the Mini-Max cu 35 ie. tilting shaper ecc.    Why I got the Felder?

   1. it weighs 400kg more, more stable.

   2.rear tilting shaper, the work piece is never trapped against the table.

   3.4 knife cutter head on the planer with two speed feed rate on the thickness planer.

   4. quick change planer knives in HSS .(mini-max alternative Tersa works fine but ss knives cost like felder hss)

   5. shaper spindles Felder has changeable spindles with a spindle that takes router bits, cuts cust for tooling on one time jobs. also if you remove the spindle to do another job when you replace it the setting is still held.Same with shaper hood and fence setting. IE.   You mess up a piece , pull the spindle and hood, use the saw and planer to remake the piece, put back the hood and spindle and don't loose lots of time refinding those delicate settings.

   6. Accessories; felder has a large catalogue of accessories designed to help an artisan work alone even on large pieces.Bed extensions. rip fence extensions.

          There is also one last draw back to combination machines when you want to up grade you can't change just one piece like with single machines as such when you do so your wallet goes around with an open wound for a long time. If you can ,go to a show and look at both the machines , do the change over movements and see how they feel to you.Get both companies to send you catalogues so you can compare specs and accessories.Both companies have always given me good service (even for just stupid questions).   If you want to know anything else just ask.

                                        Philip

5. 
   pritcharded | Jan 16, 2003 04:21am | #6

   Hi Chuck

   I also had a full suite of INCA equipment and some years ago for space reasons I sold the lot and bought a secondhand Casadei combination machine (1980's vintage).  A couple of points:

   • INCA equipment might be aluminium alloy but in my view it's nicely made and I found it to be a pleasure to use. If you like your existing INCA equipment, then I suspect that you could be disappointed with some of the cheaper combination machines.
   • Combination machines are a lot more compact but you do need to think through the production process to prevent a lot of unproductive set up time - the changeovers individually don't take long but it can add up. Personally I don't find the discipline of thinking through the workflow in detail to be much of a hassle.
   • My combination came out of a joinery shop and is a fully professional machine. It has much larger tables, more power, a great deal more mass, etc, than the INCA equipment it replaced and that makes a lot of jobs easier and more enjoyable to do. Having a sliding table is a big advantage, as is the scoring saw.
   • The weakest point on my machine is its fence - it's insufficiently rigid and I have to use a "work-around" to make it adequately so. If I was replacing my machine I would look closely at this aspect of any replacement contender.
   • The quality of the sliding table mechanism is worth carefully considering. From reviews I've read of panel saws (and they use the same mechanisms), there's quite a variation in accuracy and life expectancy and they are not necessarily easily adjusted or repaired.
   • From what I've read and seen, Knapp, Felder and Minimax are all worth a look - there are big $$ differences between them and doubtless some differences in quality, finish, features and resale value - depends on what's important to you.

   If you need the room, would benefit from much increased capacity, don't mind working in a methodical way, and you select a machine which comes up to your expectations for finish and accuracy, then you're likely to be very happy with a changeover. I certainly have been.

   Ted

   
   

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   Edited 1/16/2003 8:06:22 PM ET by Ted

6. 
   stancalow | Jan 16, 2003 05:03am | #7

   Just a coincidence, but current (FEB) issue of FWW has article on combo machines.