What’s a good HVLP setup for a serious hobbyist?
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Check out accuspray at http://www.compliantspraysystems.com
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
Ditto. I have two buddies that have this gun. One has a homebuilt turbine and the other bought the #23. I have used them both and can hardly wait to get one of my own. Just need the right commission to come along.
While you're at it try some of their Enduro W/B poly. You won't be sorry. It's also nice dealing with the owner of the company that makes Enduro. They also have an in-house guru that is very helpful.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Edited 10/29/2003 3:35:15 PM ET by ELCOHOLIC
I would strongly suggest that you avoid turbine systems. You get much more bang for the buck with a good "conversion" gun, run off compressed air. Turbine systems perform OK within their limitations, but they just don't have the versatility of conversion guns. I have owned two $1000 turbine setups, and used several others, and I haven't yet seen one that holds a candle to any of my compressed air HVLP guns.
Case in point: for the past couple of days I have been doing some consulting, designing a "furniture grade" finish for a contractor and training his crew how to apply it. They had expensive Graco HVLP units. Applying the dye stain and the pigmented stain required fairly precise application to avoid blotching and to get the look we wanted. Both stains had to be sprayed with no wiping, and we had to have a very light, even coat. The Graco guns could NOT be adjusted to put down a light enough coat with sufficient atomization. I brought in a Sharpe 998HVLP for the dye stain, and a Binks Mach1 with a small fluid tip and air cap for the pigmented stain, and the guys were able to apply the stain properly with no problem. This is very typical of my experience, along with the fact that that big hose gets very awkward, very fast.
Both the guns I brought to the job will operate all day on a "3 HP" twin- tank compressor that can be bought for around $250. The Sharpe gun cost me a little over $200 with a pressurzed cup. So for under $500.00 you have a rig that outperforms any $1000 turbine rig, and you have a compressor that will drive nailers & such, too. For a couple hundred more you can get a Mach1 or and Asturo Eco or any of the other high end Low volume guns and you'll have a gun that will last a lifetime. If you're really on a budget, get an Astro gravity gun for a round $100 - After you check its CFM requirements against your compressor's output. (There are a lot of other goo guns on the market. I just mention the ones I have personally owned or used.)
I especially have a problem with Accuspray and their misleading advertising. That product comparison they show just doesn't match with reality, and their performance claims are wildly inflated, in my opinion. For example, they claim something like 80 to 100 CFM for their turbines. What they don't tell you is that that is for the turbine, wide open with no hose or gun. The turbine rigs I have tested actually put around 15 to 20 CFM through the gun. They also claim 7 to 8 PSI at the gun, but that's static pressure. With the units I have tested, the pressure drops off a lot when you pull the trigger. This means you can't atomize heavier finishes as well. With a compressed air gun, you can turn the pressure up to get an actual 10 PSI at the tip, or even more if you need it. It won't be legally HVLP over 10 PSI, but it will do the job in a pinch, and still have reduced overspray.
I could go on for pages, but I think I've made my point. A lot of people are very happy with their turbine HVLPs, but I think they don't know what they are missing.
Michael R.
Great post!
This is the first time that I have seen anybody given "real" technical input on the turbine systems. I HATE these things. I, like you, have a binks conversion gun with a 2 gal binks presure pot that has a fluid pressure regulator and a air regulator (at the needle). Plus the air regulator at the compressor. I have used turbines and I also have the "old fashioned guns, along with airless and they have their advantages. I have found the turbines too restrictive for cabinetry and furniture
I'm in the market for an upgrade to my system as well. I have a 3 HP PC compressor and a PC PSH-1 gravity feed gun. I am considering a 2 qt pressure pot conversion gun or going the turbine route. I may also need to upgrade my compressor if I go the pressure pot route. Any input on this?
BTW- my compressor runs nearly 60% of the time when I spray, the specs are identicle to the twin tank version..
Thanks
Craig
Michael,
I know you speak the truth about the turbine units. We bought one for use in our painting business a couple years ago, 4 stage "CapSpray" model CS9100. Was supposed to be the answer to all painters most fervent prayers. BS!! It's adequate at best for very light stuff and won't do thicker stuff worth a hoot!
Absolutely would recommend the conversion setup as the better way to go!!
Regards,
Mack
Bump
I have really enjoyed reading your letters on conversion guns. I'm a newbie and was really looking for a Hvlp unit until you explained the benefits of a conversion gun. I have a small 2 hp Hitachi oil air compressor. Could not seem to find the Sharpe 998 info, it is disontinued.How do feel about Wagner conversion gun/maxum1? Any other info would be great.
Thanks
Bruce Hand
Bruce,
You might want to check with Compliant Spray Systems to see of one of their guns will work with your Hitachi:
http://www.compliantspraysystems.com
Please let us know what you find out!-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I have a 4 stage Fuji turbine system and I am very pleased with it. I mostly use it for oil based paints on built in furniture and it does great. I have also sprayed a lot of furniture with various finishes and it preforms great.
I have never used a conversion gun, but in my research I found that most auto body guys and "old school" pros are partial to the conversion setup. In the end I took the turbine route because I checked out what the fine finnishing pros were using in my area. ALL of the piano, and musical instrument refinishers use turbines as well as all the truly highend furniture guys I know.
I like my fuji, I think it has the best turbine, but the gun is probably not the best out there.
Mike
Jeff,
Sometimes it's hard to relate to others experiences when you own differ drastically. I own an Accuspray # 10 gun for about 8 years now and have run it off a CH 2 stage POC turbine and then finally off of the 3 stage fan cooled turbine that comes with the 230K system from Accuspray.
With the first turbine I was always able to get a great finish once I found the right water based product. There were issues of blowing hot air with the first turbine and I’m sure everyone knows the plus’s and minus’s of that. One minus was that it was very difficult to spray solvent base lacquer because the air was to warm and it would cause the product to blush. I also had to thin heavier products to spray well with the two stage, but all and all it was totally acceptable.
The 3 stage fan cooled is just a pleasure to use. I can spray anything I like and I really if ever have to thin product. The advantages to turbines are many and should be taken into account when buying one. Fan cooled turbines blow good clean dry air where as any air from a compressor will need to be filtered and possibly drier with a drying unit. Turbines can run for a long time, I’ve run mine for about 2-1/2 hours will no ill effects and they are small, light weight and portable.
My #10 can be converted to spray with a compressor with the purchase of a $45 regulator. I tried using on a 1-1/2 and 3 ph compressor. The 1-1/2 just ran all the time to keep up with demand and the 3 hp run ½ the time. The biggest problem was the drop off when the compressor would kick in. That momentary pause would cause the finish to spray lighter then the surrounding area thus making the film uneven at that point. You never get that with a turbine. I got excellent results when using my 5hp compressor, but it is surly not that portable.
A good gun and turbine will run you between $600 and $1000, but you will definitely get what you paid for.
Edited 10/31/2003 5:36:58 PM ET by Resurrected
Res,
You illustrate my point very well. You are happy with your turbine, limited though it is. You apparently haven't spent much time with a good "conversion" system. It appears that you have no real need for one, if you are getting results that satisfy you.
I've been a full time woodworker for over thirty years, 20 in industry, and the last ten doing mostly custom finishing work for Very Picky people who are willing to pay for good work, and I need the best tools to get first class results as easily as possible. You can do good work with poor tools; it just takes longer.
Over the years, I have owned just about every kind of finishing apparatus except for airmix (they weren't available yet when I could have used one), including two $1000 turbine systems. I have also used a lot of rigs that I didn't own, including several turbines. In my experience, I have yet to see a turbine system that can come close to the performance of $500 woth of compressor and spray gun. I didn't say turbines are bad, just that they are not as good a value, and that they are limited.
I think if you took a poll among full time furniture finishers who have used every type of small shop equipment available, the majority would probably be in this order: Airmix (especially Kremlin), HVLP, LVLP, standard spray guns, airless, and turbines. It would be fun to take a poll to see whether I'm right.
Turbines do have a weight advantage, but not much since you don't carry them around a lot. For small jobs I use either an Asturo Eco or a Mach1 with a "3HP" twin tank compressor that I can carry with one hand. I can literally spray all day with it. For jobs whre I'm going to be there several days, I take a "5 HP" oil lubricated portable compressor with wheels. Besides, almost anyone serious about woodworking is going to need a compressor - except for the strictly hand tool people. So the cost of a compressor driven HVLP could be said to be just the cost of the gun, from $100 for a good one to less than $500 for the best.
I've never experienced the "drop off" that you described, nor can I think of any reason for one if you were using a decent regulator at any pressure below 50 PSI, since most compressors kick on at about 90 PSI. As for clean, dry air, a $25 filter/separator is perfectly adequate for one person use, even in a Florida summer, if you drain your compressor daily. The only time I needed a drier was when I had a 25 HP screw compressor supplying a whole plant with compressed air.
It IS hard to relate to other people's experience when your background and requirements vary so widely. I'm just reporting on my experience, along with a few objective facts. There's always room for differing opinions, and I do think it's a good idea to compare them objectively.
Michael R.
Wiz,
View Image
Joe,
Currently own:
Asturo Eco
Binks Mach1
Sharpe 998 HVLP
Binks Models 7 and 19
Devilbiss JGA and MBC, 2 each
Owned:
Graco President 15:1 air powered airless with 2-stage tips. Could topcoat a 6-drawer dresser in less than three minutes with a .016 tip. Sprayed over 20 gallons of lacquer a day with that rig. Used to buy finishing materials 500 to 1000 gallons at a time.
Graco automatic airless guns.
Wagner Capspray 900 (?) three stage turbine -- rated tops at the time, but very slow and hard to adjust.
Graco four-stage turbine. Can't remenber the model no. from Sherwin-Williams; bought it used and sold it after a few weeks. Again- slow & hard to finetune. By the way, that was the same system that wouldn't do what I needed last week.
There are no doubt others that I have forgotten, IE Crapsman, etc, that are probably best forgotten.
Brands used or tested: (You'll have to forgive me if I don't remember the model numbers, but I do a lot of work in other people's shops, training finishers, correcting problems, and designing finishes)
Roll coaters
Curtain coaters
Kremlin Airmix
Kremlin LVLP
Graco airmix
Fuji turbine,
Accuspray 10 ? (the gun that splits in two). Sprayed OK but very slow with heavier materials. Compare to 6 -12 oz per minute at 35 seconds in a Ford no.4 cup with a Binks Mach1. Controls similar to a conventional gun. Never seen Accuspray's performance specs, although I have looked. Haven't tried the one you mentioned. I shy away from Accuspray mainly because I find their advertising claims singularly offensive, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
Campbell Hausfield cheapie.
Sata (great guns, but an air hog.)
Astro gravity feed
A lot of cheap Chinese knockoffs.
There are surely more, but that's a pretty good sample of what's available, including what I think are the top rated turbine systems out there. I did say every kind, not every brand. I stand by my point: Turbines perform OK within their limitations, but a good conversion gun gives better performance, more versatility, for a lot less money, and thus presents a better value.
When was the last time you were able to turn the pressure up to 10 PSI or over to handle a difficult material? The accuspray only produces 7 to 8 PSI with the trigger not pulled. Never measured pressure drop when the trigger was pulled, but I know performance drops way off when you add hose.
Speaking of hose, that big hose gets in my way a lot, especially finishing inside cabinets and doing flat work.
Can you sit your turbine outside in the fresh air and run 75 feet of hose into the gun and still get any kind of performance?
Will your turbine power a nailer, or even provide 30 PSI to a blow gun?
How much lacquer, and at what viscosity will your Accuspray put down per minute, and still give class A results? Can you go from airbrush flow rates to 2 gallons an hour with the turn of a couple of knobs?
My Porter-cable twin-tank compressor weighs 60 to 75 pounds. I put 3HP in quotes because it really produces a little over 1 HP continuously. I am 57 years old and weigh 165 lbs and never even deadlifted 450 lbs, but I can easily carry the compressor with one hand. It will run my lower-consumption guns for a full day's finishing without distress. And remember, I just have to get it out of the truck and plug it in. I don't have to drag it around with me. I have a little cart on wheels that holds my pressure pot, a filter/regulator, and a hook to hang my gun. All I have to drag is a 3/8" hose. The bigger compressor rolls easily out of my van on a couple of planks, and then stays in one place for the duration.
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I don't mean to disparage your choice. If it suits you, it suits you. I like Kimchee; a lot of people can't even get near it. I do think, however, that most others would find better value elsewhere. To each his own, but I think any prospective buyer is entitled to a number of viewpoints.
One can't prove a negative, so I'm giving my opinion based on a fairly wide range of samples over 50 years of woodworking, and 30 years of finishing. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not there, but I think my range of samples implies a pretty strong tendency.
By the way, a Kremlin is not suited to custom work, or to stains and glazes, really. It's pretty much a production rig for topcoats.. It's just that most people who try it find it to be the nicest spraying production gun around. You change fluid volume by changing tips, as you do with an airless. There's little need for feathering and the like at production speeds.
Pax,
Michael R.
Mike,
Nice list. 15 years ago I met a man who was a great finisher. He had two brushes, he referred to them as “the big one and the small one”. He never cared much for spraying, but then again he didn't have to. . .
The more I read it seems that you are making the argument that owning a turbine doesn’t afford you the luxury of having a “tool”, the compressor that has a devise functionality. The compressor gives you more options. . .
Well the #10 gun from Accuspray is an excellent conversion gun. You can buy the mini regulator for around $45 and run it off any compressor you own, maybe. My point is still a simple one, there are many good turbine systems available and they should be included in the set of what to buy when looking to go HVLP.
Now the last time I looked, my Leigh jig or my PM 27 shaper weren’t any good at driving nails, but then again I didn’t buy them with that expectation in mind. There is absolutely nothing wrong in buying a system that is “dedicated” to one task as a turbine finishing system is.View Image
The point is, and has been, value for the dollar, versatility, and overall performance. The compressor is a side benefit. You are right that an accuspray gun can be connected to a compressor, and when so connected, probably performs on a level with other good conversion guns, and overcomes my objections. It also becomes much more competitive in value. Probably a lot faster, too, with more pressure available.
But then it's no longer a turbine system, is it? You have demonstrated my point exactly.
If your accuspray gun is good with a turbine, it's got to be better with a compressor if only for the fact that you have that extra three of four PSI available, under the 10 PSI limit, for difficult materials; you're not dragging that big hose around; and it's less expensive -- especially if you already have a compressor..
As for all the equipment I own or have owned, that's the product of over 30 years' work in a number of environments. The tool needs to be appropriate to the job. A brush has no more place on a finishing line where you're finishing over 100 pieces of furniture per day than a curtain coater does when you are trying to paint double hung windows.
If your acquaintance was such a great finisher with only two brushes, why aren't you emulating him? Why use a spray system at all? I think the answer is obvious. He can't do half the things you can do with a spray system, nor can he remotely approach the productivity on most applications.
Truth is, I mainly use four guns these days. The Asturo is connected to the pot I use for clearcoats. The Sharpe is connected to my stain pot. The Mach1 is currently set up as a cup gun. I also use a Binks touchup gun for glazes and touchups. The rest sit on a shelf, used mainly for things I don't want to put through the other guns.
There is nothing wrong with buying a dedicated system when it's justified economically. Again, that argument is beside the points of performance, value, and versatility.
Clay, I agree that you can dial an Accuspray gun way down, unlike the other turbine guns I've tried. You've also got more adjustment range than most. It also sprays fine with thin materials, if a little slow. But why pay for a turbine when you can get a wider range of performance with a compressor, and for less money?
I think I've said about all I can say on the subject. We're not about to convice each other, and it's getting repetitious. I think we've examined the subject more than thoroughly, and maybe others will benefit from the views we have expressed.
Thank you, Joseph, for representing the contrasting point of view.
Michael R
Edited 11/1/2003 10:36:43 AM ET by Woodwiz
The Accuspray is a very good value for the money whether you buy it as a conversion gun or part of a turbine system. Value for your dollar can be viewed differently by different people in different circumstances. To me purchasing my turbine system was an excellent value in the aspect that I can use my gun anyway I choose. Buying a single purpose conversion gun means you can only use it with a compressor. . . So that blade cuts in both directions.
I get excellent performance with my gun if I use it with my 5 hp compressor or my turbine. I use my turbine 99.95% or the time.
In the 22 years plus that I’ve been a carpenter I’ve acquired 10 of thousands of dollars in various equipment. The point is not “how much”, but what. Being a one man shop I have only 1 PM TA66 table saw, 1 PM 60 jointer and 1 PM 27 shaper. I would have no need to have 3 or 4 of them since I only do about 6 kitchens a year.
As for my acquaintance with such a great finisher, as you put it. I did aspire to his excellence and if I must say am an excellent finisher with brush or spray gun. When I make tables and small pieces of work I get great pleasure from finishing by hand. Since I make a living at kitchens and cabinetry on a larger scale, the brush is just not practical for me. Just as the Airmax is not practical for me either. I make and finish all the components for the cabinets I build and the Accuspray system is perfect for me at this time. If I reach a point were I spray 100 pieces an hour I’ll be sure and buy an Airmax.
Finally and once again, turbines shouldn’t be discounted because they are a single purpose tool. Most tools I own perform a single purpose. I like to try and find the ones that do whatever job they are intended for the best. That to me is true value.
View Image
You're making me feel bad for buying my fuji now. I would like to use a good conversion gun to see how it preforms. I don't want to hijack the discusion but do yall have any recomendations for a "better than my Fuji" gun?
Also you guys are talking about serious bucks for these systems. 3 and 5 horse compressors, with $300 to $500 guns. As a serious hobiest he may not be hip to that kind of dough. You can walk out the door with a great turbine system for $600 easy. While these systems may not lay down as much material, they are a lot easier to control for the inexperienced.
MIke
Mike, If I were in your position, I'd keep the Fuji until it is no longer adequate for your needs. I just wanted new buyers to have some facts to help counter the hype that turbine manufacturers put out.
As you have probably read above, there are a number of professionals and serious hobbyists that are completely happy with their turbine setups. However, if you're really interested in a cinversion gun, here are a few suggestions:
If you already have a decent sized compressor, there's a pretty good gravity gun by Astro Pneumatic that sells for around $100, and that lots of people like. Problem is, it uses a maximum of 10 CFM at around 40 PSI, and that's a little beyond the range of a hand carried twin-tank compressor like Porter-Cable and Campbell-Hausfield make. You'd really need a 20 or 25 gallon portable compressor for that. Ones rated at 5 or 6 "peak" horsepower (@1 1/2 continuous), and selling around $350 should keep up just fine. If you have to buy both compressor and gun, your investment would be about $450.
Keep in mind that you don't usually use these guns at max pressure, nor do you use them continuously. Even when I'm finishing all day, I'm doing well to keep the gun spraying half the time.
Sharpe makes a pressurized cup gun, the 998HVLP, which sells for something over $200, and that will run just fine off a $250.00 oilless twin tank compressor, making a total investment of less than $500, or less than $250 if you already have a compressor. I have one of these guns, and it performs above its price level.
You can often find professional guns used or on sale. I paid $100 for my Binks Mach1 from a guy who was quitting the business. I think retail on it was close to $500. Depending on the tip and air cap combination, it wiill run on anywhere from 6cfm on up to about 13 CFM. The 92 tip and 92P air cap uses around 6CFM at 15 PSI, and the 94, 94P combination uses up to 13CFM and will spray lacquer faster that you can handle.
The Asturo Eco is another gun that I bought on sale for just over $300 when it usually sells for over $400. Both of these guns are hard to improve on, and the Asturo does more with less air than anything I've tried.
As for too much speed, you can turn any of these guns way down to near airbrush levels and still get good atomization and pattern.
Regarding the cost of a compressor, most people who do a lot of woodwork seem to end up with one. Brad nailers and blow guns are just too handy to avoid for long, even if you are heavily into hand work, and larger nailers really speed up carpentry work. Part of my argument was that if you already have or need a compressor, then why spend the money on a turbine.
There are a lot of guns out there that I haven't used, and there are new ones coming on the market all the time. You've read how pleased some people are with their Accuspray guns, which will work with a compressor, and who knows how many other brands are out there. I own most of the ones I mentioned, and have lived with them long enough to know that I won't be replacing them any time soon.
Make your own decision. Most of the pros and cons have been aired out pretty well, here. Determine your needs, read, listen, ask questions, maybe hold out until you find a deal. Try out as many as possible -- not at woodworking shows where they are spraying colored water, but in the real world, spraying the heaviest material you are likely to use. Most finishes should be sprayed with as little reduction as possible, unless the manufacturer says different. Overthinning can make the material lay down nice, but it reduces the build per coat, and makes runs and sags much more likely.
Michael R
I just now had a chance to sit down and read each of your contributions and wanted to say thank you to all that contributed to my post. I'd especially like to thank those who contributed so passionately -- I mean that sincerly. I clearly have some work to research and understand more of the details so I can choose the correct option for me.
Jeffrey
(Will use Jeffrey going forward to distinguish myself from the other Jeff who got here first :-)
I will have to say that I too have a strong feeling for my accuspray gun (I think it's LOVE). I have used other turbine HVLP's and conventional spray guns also some real high end air brushes. Nothing else performs like my accuspray ten gun. I have sprayed a fog of mist so fine that I had to have the light just right to see it and I sometimes lay down a quick blanket of finish that covers lots of square feet in a hurry ... the accuspray does all these things with ease. I cannot imagine a thin dye or stain that I could not spray wonderfully with it. I know of many professionals who echo my feeling for the accuspray guns.
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