Hi All:
This is my first post. I am having a major nightmare with glue joint failure of a 5 plank bloodwood dining table top. To complicate matters I have cut a half inch stub tenon with 5 one & a half inch tenons on the ends for greene and greene style breadboards. I used gorilla glue for the first time thenking it would be extra good for bloodwood. I’ve got 20 ;plus years as a woodworker and a fair amount of glued up table tops with perfect results. What is happening is the 4 joints in this table top have one at a time just let go on their own sitting on my bench. I moistened the edges with a damp paper towel. And have re glued the with same results. I get good glue joints with a router jig and half inch spiral carbide cutter. Now that I =have cut the tenoned ends for breadboards I am running out of width and length to play around rejointing the edges to try again, and again. Anyone out there had problems with poly glue and bloodwood? Witz end here. Help!
Rubb
Replies
This is my first post also. I experienced the same gorilla glue failure you have. I built a small table for a customer using floating tenons and standard table top glue up. All joints were hand planned minutes before glue up and clamp pressure was only what was required to hold the pieces together. About three months after the customer took possession of the table I received the call asking why the top was coming apart. Long story short, after I got the table back I was able to pull every single joint apart. Some of the floating tenons held on one end but none of them held on both ends. I contacted gorilla glue and was told there are some woods the glue does not work with. They were not aware Bloodwood was one of them, they are now. I was also advised all joints should be put together within an hour of final machining. Four months later I am still awaiting the return call promised by gorilla glue after they researched the problem. I scraped all of the joints I could get apart and reglued the table using G-2 epoxy glue I obtained from Lee Valley. I contacted the manufacturer, via email, prior to using the product seeking any special instructions. They were very helpful. Aside from avoiding excessive clamping pressure and insuring good joint preparation there were no special instructions for using the G-2 epoxy. It has been several weeks and I have not heard from the customer wanting to return the table again sooooo. Good luck with the table. I would recommend the G-2.
Hi Dan:
Thanks for the reply. At least, now I know I'm not alone. I will try g2 and hope to net a slightly thinner narrower and shorter tabletop. I may find my temperature rise whenever I see an add for poly glue in fine ww. bye, Rubb
I've had similar experience glueing Ipe. I have had good results with resorcenol-sp, but what is G-2? is it available on the East Coast? Is it like WEST SYSTEM? Thanks!
John
Hi J:
I believe g2 is sold through woodcraft catalogue. It is epoxy formulated for teak and other difficult tropical woods. West system probably has more than one epoxy. The epoxys for wetting out fiberglass cloth may be too viscous for edge gluing wood, but I don't know this from experience.
Thanks for the update!
John
Rubb and Dan, While I don't use poly glue much, I had discussions with their tech people when I was involved with a shop a few years ago.
Poly glue requires tight clamping and the clamping pressure must be maintain for a considerable time. We're talking hours for poly glue to develop 80% of it's ultimate strength. Removing clamps before the glue has cured will actually cause the glue to force the joint apart as the glue wants to expand as it cures. Also, be careful about adding water. If the lumber is at 10% moisture content, adding water is not generally necessary. Too much moisture causes excess foaming and leads to weakened joints.
Poly glues are not a trouble free, simple product. Gorilla Glue has a good tech department that can answer questions or trouble shoot problems for you.
I will throw my hat in the love it category. I have used it for several projects, indoor and outdoor, and have never had any problems. FYI check out the glue charts on the home page for finewoodworking.
Very good points, and for those using poly glues, take notice.
Thanks for the input Howie. Interestingly enough the people at G2 indicated that excessive moisture was the usual cause of glue joint failure. Your statement concerning the moisture content of the wood prior to using the Gorilla Glue is the first time I have encountered that information. The instructions for the use of the glue advise introducing water to the joint. Perhaps information transfer, as usual, is the problem not necessarily the product. In the past I have used the glue with some domestic woods without any problems which is why I used it in this case. In future I will limit any use to only domestic species.
Dan, one of the strong points (pardon the pun) of polyurethane adhesives is for use on hard woods with heavy oil content. They perform very well on the applications. But, you have to have recently cut surfaces (hour or two) and you must be sure that the wood is just dampened (damp rag is fine) and that sufficient and long clamping is used.
Interestingly enough the people at G2 indicated that excessive moisture was the usual cause of glue joint failure.
This whole, 'do I need to introduce moisture into the joint' question alone is reason enough to shy away from this stuff. I don't own a moisture meter, have done fine without one for years, but if I did buy one I understand the cheap ones aren't worth crap. I think that poly glue introduces an incremental amount of complexity that seems pointless.
Bottom line when I used the stuff - the foaming action does jack the joints/boards apart. The stuff is very sensitive to clamp pressure and obviously sensitive to the moisture level of your stock.
Do you really need the hassle?
Why reinvent the wheel, yellow glue does a fine job. Any time a joint fails, it's never in the glue line. Why go through the noise of second guessing moiture levels....bla bla bla. Stick to what works!! I experimented with Garilla glue and had to start over again due to joint failures. Never again!
I work with ipe a lot and I've had similar problems with polyurethane glues. I did a glue test with ipe and every glue I could find. The worst was polyurethane (I think Titebond brand). I could break the joints with my hands. The best performing glue was resorcinal and G2 epoxy. The wood failed before the glue. Regular old Titebond II did surprisingly well and Urea resin also was a strong performer. Actually the only glue that really did poorly was the polyurethane and I repeated the tests just to make sure it wasn't an isolated incident. I suspect bloodwood has similar glueing issues and resorcinol or G2 epoxy would be my choice. The purple color of resorcinol might be a problem (not with ipe), but the epoxy is clear and I've even tinted it for gap filing applications. Polyurethane is nice when it comes to sanding and finishing, but I just don't trust it any more and I won't use it in my shop. I've even heard of failures with more traditional woods.
Thank you for your reply. This forum promises to be a great connection for me. My local friends who build furniture all seem to only have had great luck with poly glue. Now I can at least warn them that there are others out there besides me who have trouble using it. I will try titebond or g2. I only used poly this time because I thought it would be the better choice for bloodwood. I won't be using poly glue again for anything.
The only glue failure that I have ever had was on edge joints with polyurethane glue, Gorilla Glue brand. The wood was honeylocust and I have never used poly glue again.
Edited 7/2/2003 2:12:16 PM ET by JS_HERBEL
JS Herbel:
Thanks for your reply. I've gotten 3 so far and you all seem to (rightly so) not want to use poly again. I get kind of angry now when I see an add for gorilla glue in fww. Seems as though if there are more than a few of us out there with bad experiences with poly that maybe an editor at fww should consider mentioning the risks of using poly on exotics so that future failures might be avoided.
I surely won't use poly glue again for anything. I've never had a glue failure before this, and will probably use wither titebond or marine epoxy to try and save this job.
I used Titebond II on a table top (bloodwood and lacewood) I built a few years ago for home, ignorant of any potential problems with bllodwood and glue - and everything is tight as a drum. Sometimes ignorance is bliss....but think that I might throw away the bottle of poly glue that's on my shelf (so far, have only used it for a cocobolo picture frame - hasn't fallen apart yet).
Rubb -
I'm no fan of poly glues - they're a mess to use to be sure. None the less, I did a built-up lamnated, resawn and relaminated handrail pitch change piece for my exterior deck handrail using it. The wood was redwood, an admittedly poor choice for steam bending but in thin enough lams I managed to make it work.
I don't think I'll be using poly glues anymore, either, but not from a bad glue failure experience. I find the urea type glues (I believe that's what the Resorcinol glues are) to be a *lot* easier to use with better open times and easier cleanup. And they don't turn the palms of your hand brown.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
This is my first post; but wanted to comment on the poly glue problem. I had a poly glue failure in trying to laminate two 4'x4' plywood sections. Thankfully, it was just a rough tabletop for the camp. Will not use poly glue in furniture construction anymore, though I'm sure it works for certain applications -- just not sure what its limitations are.
I must be the only fan of the stuff here. I've only used it for domestic hardwoods, but I have never had a failure, the stuff is a standard in Europe, they love it.
I have not had any poly glue failures with Gorilla, PL or Excel. I have done used it on several projects:
a carved teak dock sign down at the marina that's been there over 5 years.
a pair of mahogany captains chairs for a sail boat - 5 years
a pair of 6'h x 4'w redwood gates with nothing holding it together but PL and (4) #20 biscuits per joint that's at least 6 years old. The leaves mate with a standard dead bolt lock. No hardware but hinges and a cain bolt!
edge glued my 8' (6) board KOA dining room table with a 5/16" Ebony stringer down the middle, 2 years old
attaching corner glue blocks in prefinished chairs
No failures. I wipe the oily woods down w/ acetone right before wetting one side down with water. Poly is sensitive to clamping pressure. If it's too light it will foam and have 0 strength. Shelf life is short too. I buy small and toss it in 6 months. Even expensive glue is too cheap to have stuff fall apart. The same clamping scenario for TB may not necessarily work for poly. John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
John, Are you saying that if Gorilla glue foams, the clamp up is too tight?
It will foam in the absence of pressure. If the squeeze-out foams no worries. In fact I think that's a good indicator that there was enough glue and moisture for it to go off. If it foams in the joint then you have a bad joint because of gaps and/or not uniform clamp pressure. John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Thanks, that sounds right.
Tex
I just finished building a mahogany porch swing with gorilla glue and if that thing falls apart I am going to be extremely unhappy. My bottom line: after reading these posts I'm throwing away the rest of the bottle and never buying the stuff again. It can't be a coincidence or bad practices that causes so many people to have problems.
Mark, poly glues have little to recommend them. No tack to assist in glue up (I need help where I can get it). If you need a strong, waterproof bond then resorcinol glue or epoxy is what you should use. If you're building fine furniture nothing improves on hide glue. It seems like there is a glue that does everything poly purports to do, but does it a lot better.
Man, I must be lucky. I've used poly for all sorts of stuff, indoor and outdoor projects, bent laminations, mortise and tenon, dovetails etc. I've never had a failure. I can't say that it was necessary for any of those projects. I'm sure other glues would have worked and I'm not sure why I chose the poly. I like that you only need to apply glue to one surface, and the cured glue is easy to clean up. It also tends to have a little longer open time which was handy for one large laminated glue-up. The exception is the titebond brand of poly which cures very fast here in florida. I don't know if it is the heat or the humidity or both, but I don't use it anymore. I wonder if this post had started with a question about yellow glue failure how many folks could come up with an instance where yellow glue failed.
I'll probably keep using the poly on occasion, though I usually use titebond PVA.
Mike
we use poly glue for eveything in our carpentry business and have never had a failure.
Ease of clean-up is one of the main benefits.
Sorry I missed this post when it first appeared, but I wanted to voice my own experience with Gorilla glue. I also experienced total joint failures with Gorilla glue on a couple of pojects, using cherry and maple. After these failures, I decided to do some testing. I glued up various boards, using both Gorilla glue and yellow PVC. I used the traditional testing method -- after the glue had a day to cure, I applied a shock to the glue joints with a mallet. In each case, the PVC-glued boards broke far away from the glue joint. But in all cases, the Gorilla glue joint failed at the glue joint.
Needless to say, I no longer use Gorilla glue, or any kind of polyurethane glues.
Another note. If you use biscuits at all, keep far away from polyurethane glues.
Here is some info I got from GG. The point they are making is that surface prep is the most important factor in joint failure with PU glue. I have had several failures with PU glue but am trying the method they recommend and will see what they results are. I use alcohol to remove oil from the surface and to wet it at the same time.
Cocobolo: Difficult to glue due to very poor glue penetration. Preparation of glue lines is very critical due to the oil in the wood, and it is a question whether to advise gluing with PU-glue at all.
Please note: Grandillo, Ebony is the same as Cocobolo when it comes to technical specifications, and should be treated carefully with regard of being glued with Gorilla Glue or any other reactive glue type. For those type of wood thermoplastic glues are the best, thou they gives a very flexible glue line.
Rosewood (Jacaranda): (A number of types from all over the world are called PALISANDER or ROSEWOOD). As examples: Rio-Palisander, Guatemala Palisander, Para Palisander, Cabiuna Palisander, Honduras Rosewood, Ostindian Rosewood (Palisander), and quite some more. When discussing "Rosewood" or "Palisander" it is important to look behind the commercial number of ideas for trying selling something a given piece of wood it not.Density in the range of 750/900 kg/m3
The general characteristics are though, more or less the same: High resin/oil content, machines pretty well, stable when dried. Careful preparation before gluing required, cleans surfaces with alcohol – not solvents if required. Allow all alcohol to evaporate before gluing, then sand carefully. Apply standard clamping pressure and clamping time.
Due to possible penetration of the wood oil into the glue lines, maximum stability and strength of the glue line may take up to 24 hours to be reached.NOTE: The "TERM" Alcohol for use in removing any oil/resin from a prepared wood surface, is specified as normal "House hold denatured alcohol " of approx. 40 – 60 % concentration. This means: when applying alcohol, you are, at the same time, applying water to the wood. In many cases, this volume of water will be enough to "moisten "the wood sufficiently for adjusting moisture content in the surface, for the glue to react.
Please note: Grandillo, Ebony is the same as Cocobolo when it comes to technical specifications, and should be treated carefully with regard of being glued with Gorilla Glue or any other reactive glue type. For those type of wood thermoplastic glues are the best, thou they gives a very flexible glue line.
Hard Maple: 550/750 kg/m3. The surface trends to show very shiny when machined, and sanding is strongly recommended before gluing.
The Maple accepts only light moistening. Sanding after moistening is also recommended.
"Hard Maple" requires high clamping pressure.
Extended clamping time is recommended >4 hours/20 C.
DIFFICULT TO GLUE – OR GLUE WITH CARE:Sapupira: South America: Very oily wood type
Angelin: Central America: Very closed cell structure "wets poorly"
Granadillo: Tropical central America: As stated above,
Partrice: Central/tropical America: Difficult to machine, "wets" poorly
Sabrewood: Tropical America: Newer stops sweating oil.
Synthetic resins are usually divided into thermosetting and thermoplastic adhesives. The former must have a hardener added in order to complete the gluing process, and include urea, phenol, resorcinol, epoxide, polyurethane and acrylate adhesives. Thermoplastic adhesives are usually delivered emulsified in a solvent. Important adhesives of this type are PVAC adhesive, EVA adhesive, chloroprene and SBR adhesive. The latter group represent a sub-group of contact adhesives and require large amounts of organic solvents which can include aromatics and esters.
Hello Matthew:
What I don't get is this. What is the incentive to use gorilla glue ? I tried it because of the hype on the label and in the adds in fww magazine. I still would like to see a mention of the problems woodworkers are having with this glue in Fine Woodworking. As for me I hope I have learned a lesson the hard way on trying a new product on a clients expensive table.
rubb,
Although I did not use Gorilla Glue on a profesional job, I know what you are saying about trying a new product for no really good reason. Well, I am always on the lookout for improved methods, materials, and tools. Advertising can get you even if you are a pretty critical person. A good lesson to learn.
On a related topic, I read "The Glue Book" from cover to cover, and learned all about every aspect of glue. A great book -- one of the best woodworking guides I have ever read.
That's the point exactly. There is no incentive to use GG for furnituremaking. It's lack of tack alone is enough to turn me off. The foaming squeeze out, the need to perhaps moisten stock before use, its irreversibility, whew - need I go on?
Edited 9/6/2003 11:44:08 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Here is something I wrote a couple of years ago for a woodworking club journal.
First, let me say I am not a fan of the poly glues primarily because I have found no advantage to them over standard PVA glues when gluing wood to wood joints except for gluing oily, exotic woods. "Creep" is much less of a problem but there are other adhesives that are creep resistant such as plastic resin and hide glue. I'm sure there are other opinions however.
That said, like any PVA glue (white or yellow) the poly's are no stronger than the wood itself--and may be weaker if they are not used correctly. They cure by a reaction with moisture but many use too much adhesive and moisture. Excess moisture increases the reaction but shortens open time--one of their claimed benefits--and results in excessive foaming and a weaker joint. If the wood is at a moisture content of 10% or more, additional dampening is probably detrimental, not helpful. There are now PVA glues with extended open time. In fact the white PVA has virtually exactly the same open time as the poly. The yellow PVA was formulated originally to respond to woodworkers who wanted a faster setting adhesive. Strangely, some poly glues are now being marketed that have a shorter open time and faster cure because some wood workers have complained about the longer clamp time required for the original polyps.
Some poly adhesives are certified to meet the ANSI Type 1 waterproof standard which means they can be used for totally submerged applications. However, for normal outdoor use, a type II adhesive will work as well.
While "gap filling" they fill gaps with foam which has no strength. The adhesive expands as it cures tending to force glued surfaces apart so tight clamping is required. They also require that the clamp pressure be maintained for much longer than most other adhesives.
It contains hazardous materials and should be used in a ventilated area and kept away from skin if you believe the Material Safety Data Sheet. If it gets on your hands, only time will will remove the stain.
Finally, they cost much more than other glues and IMO, do not offer many advantages over less expensive adhesives.
In regards to testing, adhesives should be allowed to cure for at least five days to develop close to full strength. In 24 hours, most water based adhesive, including poly glue, develop only about 50% of their ultimate strength.
Howie,
You just reminded me of one of the worst aspects of Gorilla glue -- cleaning it off your hands! It was such a nighmare that I tried to forget about it, but your writing jogged my memory of a sticky, gummy sensation on my hands, trying to wash it off but having the water and soap just run right over it to no effect. I switched to using rubber gloves when working with Gorilla Glue.
As soon as possible, I used up that glue and then I recycled the bottle so it could be used for something better someday, like maybe a bottle of Titebond II.
rubb,
It helps to vent right? Ok, poly glue stinks in my humble opinion. Thought I'd try some on a simple hard maple picture frame. Prep was as per the directions, clamping was even, and for a 24 full hours. Took the clamps off, and a corner had stuck to the table, kind off. About as hard as a beer glass gets stuck to the counter after a good party. I picked up the opposite corner, and promptly broke two of the glue joints.
I thought, hmm.... Maybe hard maple is too dense? So I tried a frame in walnut. Would have had better adhesion with the afore mentioned beer. Those joints EASILY broke with a little pressure. Luckily, before I had a chance to cut the splines on the TS. That could have been a real mess, with picture frame splattered all over the shop. Shish.
This brings up the thought of walnut not reacting well to poly glue. An oil or something?????? What good is a glue that will not work with the woods that I use in my shop? To be fair though, I haven't tried it on agba or iroko. Perhaps thats were it really shines.
So now I have a dilema. What do you do with a mostly full bottle of wasted money? I'm thinking about dumping it in a coffee can partly full of water, just to see what happens. Sorry for the rant, you're not alone.
Steve
Edited 9/7/2003 12:33:23 AM ET by Steve
I must say that I have used quite a bit of gorilla glue with no failures yet. I rarely dampen the wood surfaces however. The gorilla glue is actually a very dense foam. Moisture increases the foaming action but also makes the bubbles larger and thus the foam is less dense. I usually want the foam to retain a quite dense form and so I rarely do any dampening of the wood surfaces. It also pays to remember that although this glue will fill pretty wide gaps it has VERY little strength when the gaps are much larger than you would allow for a PVA glue. It does have the advantage of complete waterproofness and it has slightly more flexibility than most glues. I don't think that any glue should be relied upon to glue end grain to end grain joints without the addition of mechanical fasteners (such as in picture frame assembly). When I was running my custom frame shop I crossnailed all frame joints in addition to gluing. I reccommend yellow glue for this type application because ease of cleanup and quick clamping time are important. I like to use gorilla glue for exterior door repairs and I glued my lathe stand legs to the top and the shelf with gorilla glue because I wanted the extra flexibility for these cross grain joints. I also attached them with 12 penny nails and they have maintained complete rigid solidity for about 7 years now. Any testing that you do should give the glue ample time to cure fully. I would suggest that joints glued for 24 hours are unlikely to be fully cured even in warm summer weather and much less so in winter time. I have not done any scientific testing of gorilla glue (nor of any of the others that I use) but like all of my glues it has passed the practical test of time and experience. I like it very much though I would not call it my standard glue.
Clay,
Perhaps I'm not being fair, poly glue can have practical uses probably. I just suspect that it is not as good as one is led to believe.
The glue I used was Titebond Polyurethane Glue. I'm reading the label now, and here are a few highlights.
Coverage-1/2 oz. per sq. foot
Open Working Time-30 min.
Clamp Time-1 to 4 hrs.
Cure Time-100% in 4 hrs.
Application temp.-above 50 degrees F
My maple picture frame was about 12" by 20", with keyed, not splined as I said before, mitered corners. I take pride in a tiny glueline, so the miters are always very precise. I've built a jig to evenly clamp frames, so clamping was better then usual. These joints as stated before were horribly weak. If I would have tried to cut the dado for the key on the table saw, they would have broke. Plain old yellow glue, Titebond, has preformed this task admirably for me for a long time, I thought the poly glue might make a totally invisible glue line though, so I tried it.
The walnut frame was quite small. 4 by 6. Same construction technique. Same problem.
I used an ample amount, they are right on the working time, I clamped for 6 times as long as was required, the glue inside the joint appeared to be hard, so I think it was dry, and my shop was about 80 degrees at the time. I'm thinking the glue is not very good. Perhaps the nailing you do provides the little extra the glue needs? I don't know, but it doesn't fit my woodworking needs. Regards,
Steve
The real Gorilla glue is more expensive and darn well worth it too. I have used some other brands and they are NOT the same.
Clay,
Hmm... Maybe I'll try some of it if I get a good project for it. In your opinion, would the Gorilla have held these joints? Also, was my initial reason for trying poly glue justified, that is a "finer" glue line? Have a good evening,
Steve
Well as I said in my first post I am experienced as a frame maker and I like titebond for that use. The real Gorilla glue will outperform other brands but I don't think it is a good choice for assembling mitered frames. It is not the best choice where a fine or invisible glue line is wanted. The things that it does do well are to resist moisture damage, adapt to movement within the joint (making it a good choice for cross grain joints), and fill SMALL gaps. Disadvantages are slow cure time, long clamp time, messy application, a little tougher to clean up, resists stains and finishes, less strength where the surfaces are very smooth and/or very tightly fitted. One place where it is usually a good choice is in assembling mortise and tenon joints. Note that these are usually cross grain joints and the foaming action also seems to aid in getting good glue coverage inside the joint. I also believe that the confinement of the mortise helps to prevent over expansion of the foam which can result in a weak bond. One other common reason for using Gorilla glue is to join oily woods that do not glue well with other glues (teak is a common example).
OK, here's a question that hasn't been covered yet: I'm about to build two screen doors for a screen porch that occasionally gets wet from rain that splashes up from a deck. Ordinary screen doors made from fir only last a few years in this Florida application, so I've carefully air dried some treated pine thinking it might not rot so quickly. Is Gorilla Glue going to work in this case? The joints will be M&T.
Everything that poly glue does there is another glue that does it better. You want a strong, waterproof glue? Use epoxy. Epoxy is not cheap, but has customizable open times, several different fillers and colorants that can be added.
Epoxy fills gaps with strength, so if you accidentally cut your joints a little loose the epoxy with save your behind.
Edited 9/8/2003 12:56:27 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
What exopy brands do you prefer and what applications do you use them for?
West System or System 3. Mostly West Sytem (Gougeon Brothers).
I use epoxy to glue entry door mortise and tenon joints.
I've not met anybody in the woodworking circles that I run in that would use poly glue on a custom made door. What you usually see being used are epoxies, resorcinol, and plastic resin glues.
Again, virtually everything a poly glue does another glue does better and usually much better.
Edited 9/8/2003 6:55:43 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Edited 9/8/2003 7:00:37 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Perhaps Chris is right Jim but I do not favor epoxy for gluing up exterior doors. I have consistently used gorilla glue for such purposes with no reported failures to date. I think the gorilla glue does an excellent job of keeping mortise and tenon joints together and also seals moisture out effectively. On a recent project I cut off the rotted tops of 6x6 cedar posts I used a chainsaw to create a long scarf joint with the ends stubbed off a little. I then cut a matching joint on a new cedar post and fitted them together. I glued them with Gorilla glue and bolted them with 2 half inch bolts each. After the glue was fully cured I chiseled off the excess cut the tops off level and reinstalled the porch rail. the bolts alone might be adequate to hold the joint but with the large gluing surface and the Gorilla glue to add strength and keep out moisture these posts are as good as new. Since this was a second story deck and the posts were integral to the structure, replacing the complete posts would have meant tearing down the entire deck and rebuilding it. I have numerous times taken apart frame and panel doors that were sagging because the joints were failing and reglued them with Gorilla glue while also installing 3/4" oak dowels drilled through the side rails into the stiles and then glued in with Gorilla glue. This system eliminates the problem and I like the Gorilla glue because the dowels end up being longer than is ideal so that they can reach through the rails. The extra flex of the Gorilla glue helps to keep these edgy joints from loosening as the rails move with the weather. At least that is my theory, and at any rate, it seems to work.
Charles, Clay and All -- Thanks for the insights. I've used resorcinal for exterior applications before and, after seeing all the doubts expressed here about Gorilla-type glues, may just go back to that. However, the bigger issue is now the treated lumber itself -- it's way too unstable even after a year or more of seasoning and twisted like crazy when ripped to finished size. Guess I'll use something else!
Cypress should be available where you are and it would make a fine screen door! Yellow cedar works pretty good too though that comes from the other end of the continent.
Yep, cypress is available and I've considered it, but the quality of what's being lumbered is rather poor since most of it is newer growth. Practically no old growth is available, or it's recycled and too costly. I made a project for a church out of cypress recently and and had a lot of splits to work around. My buuilder son wants me to consider mahogany instead. Don't know anything about yellow cedar, but will check into it with my supplier. Thanks -- Jim
Old growth anything is better than new growth. You can't turn the clock back five hundred years, unfortunately.
Cypress is still a viable choice. Wilson Lumber in Memphis deals exclusively in the stuff and what they have has never disappointed me.
I have no commercial interest in them other than being a customer from time to time.
Jim I don't think mahogany would be advisable for a wet environment such as you describe. There are some newer woods emerging for outdoor use you can find them being used in deck building and for patio furniture. They are Australian and South American woods. Not cheap but sometimes reasonable. Check out Homestead Hardwoods for Ipe (cypress too). Sassafrass is one domestic timber that should be good though it is kind of uncommon and may be difficult to find in the right sizes and grades. Teak would work well of course but the prices might be a little steep.
I would strongly agree with Chasstanford.
The thought of epoxy may be inimidating to the first time user, do to the mixing and pot life, etc. In reality, it is terribly easy to use. Beyond that, it is tough as nails and IMHO there is no better adhesive for exterior uses.
I have used West System to join everything from teak to plywood to pine with never a failure. Have used it to "paint" a waterproof coating on exterior wood (like mahogany) prior to 10 coats of SPAR varnish. If it goes outside and it is going to contact water, then epoxy is the choice.
Along those same lines, however, epoxy breaks down with UV exposure. So, if the application is for anything other than a joint, it needs to be painted, covered, or otherwise protected from the sun.
Gorilla Glue Failure
I have made numerous projrcts using Gorilla Glue and followed the instructions carefully, but every single joint both inside use and outside have failed within a few m,onths. The glue does not appear to live up to expectations. I find some of the other fast glues fail as well. I have gone back to the reliable rabbit skin glue for intrnal use and Titbond for everything else.
Oh . . . nowwww . . .
No problems at all here AS LONG AS THE GLUE IS FRESH and the fit up is within spec.
I learned to not use old thick glue but that is a no brainer. All I had to do was look at the joint in the clamps and I could see it was a no go. The Gorilla does not like gaps either. Nope.
I used Gorilla the first time to make the Klausz work bench (I used high end epoxy in the vise) no problems.
All purple heart. Oily, weird, exotic and all that.
Then I used the bench to make the table shown. Tons of hand planing flipping the planks over and around and again and again.
The table planks are bubinga. Way heavy and all by my self so some of the maneuvers were not particularly graceful lets say.
: )
Then once the top was all glued up back to the bench it came for flattening and finish planing. Near three hundred pounds in that table top.
When I planed the ends ( see photo with table standing on end beside bench ) I was standing on my bench prancing around like a big ol' dog.
Din'ah brake the bench even then.
We have been using the table for years now and not a whimper. Gets real dry here and real hot here and then wet in the winter.
My recommendations:
Some body buy me a bunch of blood wood and send it to me. I want to make a table out of it and see how I do with that. I get to keep the table. Sorry . . . for SAFETY reasons I couldn't release the table back into the unsuspecting civilian world. At least not for the next fifty years or so.
2nd : I think the poster that mentioned , what was that like ten years ago now, that the surfaces were freshly planed just before glue up. That is important. I would have liked to have seen the fit up as well. In both of my projects shown the joints were no compromise pain staking fit ups. No spring. I probably could have done rub joints if they were different woods and so hide glue being used and no clamps even though the tops were roughly 8/4 and more.
3rd : and I think this is a biggy that some one mentioned but I would take even further when using Gorilla. The clamp time.
In both projects I left the wood in the clamps for at least twenty four hours.
I would use Gorilla again. I would recommend others use it.
For oily exotics.
No need for Gorrilla on more friendly wood such as walnut and maple and stuff. Hide glue for those or PVA etc.
Whenever I glue up 'oily' woods I clean the joins thoroughly with denatured alcohol and/or naptha. Then I glue up using Titebond III - I built a Japanese-style garden bridge with Titebond III and PT lumber - laminating 2x12's to form the stringers. The bridge has been in place a few years now and is durable with strong laminations. I tried Gorilla glue and didn't like the results - even after testing and clamping for 24 hours. I would guess that each application is very different relative to the wood-type, moisture content and natural oils within the variety.
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