Replies

1. 
   Biscardi | Dec 15, 2002 04:58am | #1

   In 17 years of seeing patients I have seen 6 lung cancers in non-smoking patients. 3 were woodworkers. There may be something to this.

   Strangley enough I have never  seen ####nasopharyngeal carcinoma in a woodworker.I heard of one (friend of a friend) who was a guy who sanded floors for a living and must have breathed alot of dust.

   I think the guys in big shops with OSHA mandated dust handling are probably OK. The guys in basements using the beltsander with no ventilation probably have alot more risk.

   Be careful,

   Frank

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Dec 15, 2002 06:46am | #2

   Would the guy in the basement with a beltsander have smaller risk than the full-time woodworkers, because his exposure is only for a few hours a month?

1. 
   Biscardi | Dec 15, 2002 07:09am | #3

   Jamie,

   Good point. Exposure is a complicated buisiness to calculate and has to do with intensity of exposure (concentration of dust), duration of exposure, and how hard you are breathing at the time (liters/minute).

   I guess I was trying to get across that we hobbyists are not mandated to keep any particular standards re dust in the shop wheras the pros in bigger shops are.

   Frank

1. 
   SgianDubh | Dec 15, 2002 07:34am | #4

   Well, I hate to be the cynic here, but why not tell me something I didn't already know. I mean, if you spend your whole life puffing on cigarettes's, then don't be surprised if you get at least a cough, hack, hack.

   And if you spend eight hours a day sucking in fine dust from cutting up wood, including MDF and other such nasties, and applying veneer, and sanding that, and then applying polish, and sanding that. And then there's just living in a city like Houston where you're sucking in fumes from oil refineries and car exhausts, etc., all day long. I'd find it hard to believe that all these things have no meausurable effect on the health of fauna living in those conditions.

   As far as I'm aware, nasal (and similar) cancers and woodworking as a living have been known to have some sort of correlation(sp?) for about the last 80- 100 years, ever since the advent of mass production in the furniture industry, where dust rather than shavings were produced on a daily basis. Slainte.  Some stuff I've made.

1. 
   Splintie | Dec 16, 2002 12:19am | #7

   Well, I hate to be the cynic here, but why not tell me something I didn't already know.

   OK, you're a cynic, but also much more sophisticated than the average Joe--or Jill. I remember in college wood classes coughing and wondering aloud if we should be using dust masks. The prof claimed we didn't need to because the shop had a DC routed to every machine. Duh...didn't do much for the ten or so hand-held sanders or routers in use at a time. Hearing protection? That was for weenies, too.

   Kind of like those vermiculite mine workers who were told by W.R. Grace that studies indicated there was no asbestos, and even if there was, it wouldn't hurt them. From Mother Jones re internal memos at Grace:

   Men judged to be ill were moved to less hazardous jobs -- not for their protection, but to keep them working. In 1968, the company's safety officer speculated that if Grace could keep sick workers from being exposed to more dust, "chances are that we may be able to keep them on the job until they retire, thus precluding the high cost of total disability." 

   All the while, Grace continued to monitor the health of its employees, initiating an annual X-ray program in 1964. By 1969 the company concluded that 65 percent of employees who had worked at the mine for 20 years or more had some form of lung disease. Once again, the workers weren't told the results. 

   The English study i cited elsewhere was published in the early 70s, not long after the correlation between dust and adenocarcinomas was first noted. The authors claim mechanization in the furniture industry in the area studied was accomplished 1920-1939, while dust extraction started only after WWII. This wood dust problem is fairly recent compared to what was known about asbestos, and the companies are still stonewalling on that, to the detriment of the uninformed workers. I think these workers deserve better, but until the harm is documented, workers and families who suffer from being unjustly exploited can't be compensated.

2. 
   SgianDubh | Dec 16, 2002 07:55am | #10

   I'm hardly sophisticated regarding information Splintie. It's not very hard to read newspapers, listen to the news, watch the news, read technical books, and otherwise learn about the things that you want to learn about.

   I'd be a closed minded dumb-erse if I'd missed the link between smoking and lung cancer, and I'd be just as much of a dumb-erse if I'd missed the connection between  woodworking dust and nasal (or similar) cancers. I find it odd that it's 'confirmed' what's been known for decades.

   After all, if you arrive in Miami as a tourist from some other places in the world, then you'd expect your likelihood of getting shot for no seemingly immediate obvious reason to be somewhat elevated. The US population is  chockablock with gun carrying types, and not all of them are exactly responsible gun carrying citizens. Some of them are criminals and nutters, but they're loaded gun packing criminals and nutters. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.

3. 
   Splintie | Dec 16, 2002 09:58am | #13

   Color me a dumb-erse, in that case, LOL! The first i ever knew of the hazards of breathing fine dust was about 6 years into a FT woodworking career, and that only bec my mother was having parts of her jaw and palate removed for an adenocarcinoma which led me to investigate the connection.

   I admit i can't fathom how anyone can eat at McDonalds--knowing how richly addictive Scottish food is--and not expect to gain weight, even if he's only given a plastic MacDanife instead of a sgian dubh to subdue that cow. 

4. 
   Biscardi | Dec 16, 2002 06:06pm | #14

   Sawdust won't cause a chronic infection. It can cause a specific allergy that can produce chronic pain, drainage and even fever which can look alot like an infection. If you are better after being away from the shop for a week and it is worse the first day back you may have become sensitized to one of the species of wood you work on. Certain wood dusts can cause asthma and occupational bronchitis. Your family doctor is unlikely to appreciate this and you may need to see a Pulmonologist who has an interest in occupational medicine.

   I don't know where the #### came from.

   Best regards,

   Frank

2. 
   jase | Dec 15, 2002 07:36am | #5

   I just got rid of a 3 week cough that i am guessing came from the cloud of dust hanging over me as I sanded a tabletop. No dust collection or dust mask. Now I wear a respirator when I'm sanding. I didn't have any other symptoms. Also the cough went away as soon as I quit attending cabinetry class. Class began in August so I know that wasn't the cause. However, working primarily with MDF for those three weeks didn't help either.Jase--Is there a better way?

1. 
   Biscardi | Dec 15, 2002 10:00pm | #6

   Your cough may just be from a non-specific irritation from just the dust. Some folks develop an allergy to specific components of wood- eg phtallic acid in western red cedar. I don't know anything about MDF.

   I have no intention of giving up woodworking. All you can do is be as careful and thorough as you can be  about dust and get on with the project at hand.

   Sgian is right. There are alot of co-carcinogens and frank carcinogens in the enviroment. Some of these things must have some additive effects.

   Frank

2. 
   mrles | Dec 16, 2002 08:50am | #12

   Frank

   In your reply you stated you didn't know anything about MDF. I was raised in East Texas where pine and sawmills are plentifully and a byproduct of course is lots of sawdust. This was a problem to dispose of before a fellow in Dallas named Wynn came down and built a plant and started producing Wynnwood, in the early fifties. This was as far as I know the forerunner of MDF. 

   The way Wynnwood was made was quite simple mix sawdust with glue, roll it out, let it set. In the mixing room you had large open vats, the people working there had to breathe the fumes and after about 6 weeks the glue would make your nose bleed. They paid $1.15 an hour for this job, this was the highest paid job in the plant. They had no problem getting people to work in this environment. We didn't have OSHA  back then.

   MDF is a little finer sawdust but it is still basically the same product. I wonder how healthy it is to breathe the sawdust off MDF.

   God Bless Happy Holidays

   les

2. 
   Telemike | Dec 16, 2002 07:53am | #9

   I'm curious as to whether you've heard of any correlations between sawdust and chronic sinus infection and/or ashtma.  I've recently had the pleasure of three years of asthma caused by a stubborn sinus infection.  I had one roto-rooter a year and a half ago that cleared up the lower sinuses, more or less, and I'm going in for a second "high tech" roto-rooter next thursday to clear up the upper sinuses (thrills!)

   I've heard rumbles about sinus infection and wood dust and Norm Abrams, but haven't seen any definitive literature.

   I'm taking all the sensible precautions.  The dust collector is now outside in a closet, and I'm building a down-draft table.  I now use the new two-strap dust masks - they seem to seal better.

   The huge winds here this weekend brought down a big olive trunk (and some euc and some deal walnut).  I cut it up between horizontal rainstorms today into bowl blanks.  I figure, I'll be down and out about a week watching TV and reading; then, I'll do a bit of green wood turning and put the rough blanks away to dry.

   Oh well.  If I can't ski, I can make long strips of green wood.  Better than work anyway, I guess!

3. 
   forestgirl | Dec 16, 2002 08:21am | #11

   OK, Frank, all the important stuff's been covered here, so I'm now wondering what triggered the censor key in "####nasopharyngeal".  Would you kindly spell it out with dashes, i.e., #-#-#-#-nasopharyngeal?  Thanks!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   JeffKurtz | Dec 16, 2002 03:34am | #8

   I'm not the Surgeon General, nor a physician, nor a scientist, so take this for what it's worth: After many years of observation, I have come to the conclusion that living is carcenogenic, inherently dangerous, and may result in death.

   Jeff

3. 
   swines | Dec 16, 2002 06:11pm | #15

   Sand is considered carcinogenic by the State of California according to the warning posted on the sacks of playground sand at HD & Lowes.  Makes you wonder how they can knowingly let people on the beaches...or, why someone hasn't sued the State for not posting hazard warnings. 

1. 
   IanDG | Dec 17, 2002 09:30am | #16

   I want to know why the obvious connection between piles of sawdust and CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) of the wallet hasn't been more closely investigated.Thousands, nay, HUNDREDS of thousands of woodworkers are falling prey to this invidious plague every year and what's being done about it?? -- NOTHING, that's what!The price of timber should immediately be drastically reduced in the interest of the fiscal health of the woodworking community.

4. 
   WoodBeaver | Dec 17, 2002 10:09pm | #17

   Hi all from the WoodBeaver.

   Breathing the stuff is bad? Is eating it???

   In all seriousness though I find that I can't breathe through my nose like I used to and I don't like that much (being called a mouth breather that is LOL)

   I find that MDF is the worst thing to work with. I have to wear a resp just to work with it. If I leave MDF dust on sweaty arms it will soon start to itch like crazy! I'll actually spend more money to buy other products in place of MDF. Only if I have to will I use it.  The only solid lumber to have an effect on me is POPLAR. If I don't wear my respirator I get all choked up and can hardly speak.  Nasty stuff.  Don't have any poplar around either. If it is paint grade I'll use maple or birch. Costs more but healthier for me. Just to clarify I do wear my respirator all the time when machining.

   NTS (note to self: don't use poplar and MDF)

   Funny thing is that EVERY other wood has no effect. Weird. Anyone else have very specific wood allergies??

   Working with wood is not allowed as an allergy! LOL

   WoodBeaver