I’m a brand new aspiring wood worker who
has ran into some problems while gluing
some bookshelves together. These shelves
were assembled with #20 biscuits and the wood
was 4/4 Red Oak. When I was putting the shelves
together glue was dripping/running everywhere.
(This is before I got to the clamps) Does anyone have
any rules of thumb for keeping the gluing process as neat
as possible or do you just have to deal with it and clean up
later? Also, I came down to the shop the next day and noticed
that the wood had soaked up the glue making “wet spots”
on the outside of the bookshelves everywhere there was a
biscuit. Wondering if that means I put way too much glue or what.
Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone.
Replies
Red oak is a very porous wood and it sounds like your glue soaked through from the inside out. There was probably 3/8" at most from the edge of the biscuit to the outside of the case.
Glue running everywhere is one of those things that you learn the first time and try not to repeat. Could have been a bit much on there.
I don't like to wipe up drips when they are fresh. It just seems get the glue into the pores of the wood and cause problems with finishes. Better to let them dry some and then peel them up with a sharp chisel or knife edge.
Good luck with it
Andy
"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
If you had runs and drips before the clamps, you probably 1) had too much glue and 2) put the boards together too fast after putting the glue on (it should tack and stick some when you put them together). Shoot for having little beads squeeze out all along your joint when the clamps are all the way tightened.
P,
Contrary to "biscuit lore" I glue the biscuits in to only one side of the joint at a time. I dip 1/3 of the biscuit briefly in water then brush on a very small amount of glue, on one half of the biccie only. Into the biscuit slot it goes, with minimal ooze-out. Any ooze that does express is wiped away there and then with a small, damp paint brush or a bit of tissue paper.
This makes the biccie-half in the slot expand and stick. But it doen't make the other half of the biccie swell - despite the dire warnings that it will, contained in this and that WW book.
When the first biccie-insertions are stuck (not necessarily dry, just tight) I wet and glue the other half of the biccies with small paint brushes, add an appropriate coat of glue to any mating surfaces (more for end grain than long grain) and clamp up. There is only the light beading of ooze-out that one should aim for.
I developed this technique building multi-drawer carcases out of veneered blockboard or ply, where many biccies locate the drawer frames to the carcase sides. It is much easier to glue one section (one carcase side for instance) at a time. You can control the amount of glue as you are assembling in stages and not in one, time-critical go.
One last point though - I think it unwise to use only biscuits to hold bookshelves in place, especially if the shelves are long and will take a heavyish load. The bowing at the centre of the shelf will try to pull the shelf ends out of the carcase sides. If only biscuits are holding them together, the joints might actually open up. Dadoes or wedged tennons are traditionally recommended as better for bookshelves.
The wider and thinner the shelves, the stronger needs to be the joint holding the shelves to the sides.
If your shelves are short, thick and/or screwed to the bookcase back, you will probably be OK with only biscuits, assuming they are good quality and your slots are accurate/tight.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I don't know if your methode will work for me or not but I will give it a try. That is the first time I have seem that metode written up.
Jack
Jack,
I'll send you some pics in due course.
Lataxe.
Jack,
Here are some pics of half-wetted/glued biscuit and a project that benefits from them, in terms of an easier glue up.
The biscuit is briefly dipped (no soaked - only a dip in and out) in water to a depth of 1/3 the biscuit width. The water then creeps up to the half way mark of the biscuit, but no more. The glue is painted on the wet half of the biscuit. You need to get it in to its slot within about 1 minute of first wetting it.
Use minimal glue and paint it on carefully, one biscuit at a time, immediately after the dipping.
The carcase pictured used over 100 biscuits, as you can see. This would have been impossible to biscuit and glue up in one single operation.
The biscuits you see sticking out of the one side have all been glued in and have dried. They could be left like indefinitely, as long as the weather doesn't go humid. The exposed half of the biscuit will only swell when wetted and/or glued.
Strange but true.
Lataxe
Thanks for that Lataxe, I'll gice it a try mynext bigg project. If it works as well as you say it will save me a lot of problems.
Jack
Jack,
Just a couple more "findings" about the biscuit that I glued and photographed...
I chucked that biscuit in the scrap wood basket but, spotting it there all dry now, this morning, I decided to measure it. I put the vernier on it then checked with a micrometer, just to make sure.
The (now bone dry) wetted/glued half of the biscuit now measures 4.4mm thick. The unglued half measures 3.9mm thick. I measured a new biscuit from the box and that too was 3.9mm thick. So, even over 12 hours of drying time, the water and glue has not leached across into the "dry" half of that biscuit.
The swelling to 4.4mm is presumably sufficient enough to make the biscuit grip in the 4mm slot, even if there were no glue; and the very tight fit must also force the glue firmly into the wood fibres.
It's sad, but I find these things interesting. :-)
Lataxe
I find it interesting also, I guess we just need to get a life.
Jack
Plake,
First, the good news! You took on a dificult task for your first glue-up, and you used expensive wood on your first piece. You have guts. Congratulations. I used pine and it was a simple cheap box. with just a few joints.
My suggestion is to fall back and regroup. I don't know what condition your project is in. It may be that glue has penetrated in lots of places and it will be difficult to get to to take a stain nicely. You'll find out when you try. It may take a lot of sanding. If a lot of sanding doesn't help, then you may just have to start again.
First, go to your library and get a few books on woodwork. They will cover such things as how much glue to use (in general, but not in specific), and how to glue up a project in stages (because if you are using white glue or the tan woodworkers glue, you have a limited "open time"). Secondly, go find an experienced woodworker in your town. Look on the web to see if there is a woodworking school near you, or a Roclker or a Woodcraft store, and they can help you find a woodworker who is willing to give you a few lessons. It really is good to do some reading, and to find an experienced woodworker to get a few lessons before you take on significant projects.
Find a book for woodworking (there are a billion of them) that will walk you through a series of four or five simple projects, during which you will get specific instruction from the book on the problems you are likely to face. Better to start small.
It is difficult to give you specific feedback since you didn't give info on how much background you have, and what tools you have, and whether you have any books, or whether there are woodworking schools or stores near you.
Your message was fascinating!!! I never would have envisioned a new woodworker having a biscuit joiner and using thick red oak to make a project with a lot of joints as a first project.
Hope that helps.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
A lot of us newbies have more equipment than experience, perhaps leading to the plethora of reviews bemoaned in another thread. For my first project, I had a router, jointer, planer and Unisaw on hand. The project was a stand with a drawer, for the clothes dryer. Carcase was maple ply, with 2" of solid maple edging at the top for shaping and decoration. Face frame of maple, with a false front of glued-up maple, hand-beaded. Used two center-mount slides underneath, which was a huge pain.
There's nothing like jumping right in. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I can't even imagine what it would be like to be new to woodworking, have a plethora of tools at hand and not have someone to walk me through the process of becoming a woodworker. My father had tools in his garage, he was also a certified industrial arts teacher although he never taught industrial arts. I started woodworking as a young teen with his supervision and in shop classes in jr. high and in high school. My first project away from a reasonably equipped shop was a book case using a circular saw, a miter saw, and a drill. That bookcase is still holding books over 30 years later.
My suggestion to anyone new to woodworking is to get some sort of instruction, even if it's just getting the old guy down the street with a shop in his garage that's always making Chippendale highboys to let you watch. Reading a book doesn't hurt, but there just isn't a substitute for eyes on learning.
I agree with you 100%, but I'm the old guy down the street. Hehe. I did have a semester of woodshop several decades ago.
I've looked for a club near me and there are none. There are a few classes at WoodCraft, but it's difficult for me to get there -- I've got 5 kids and it's hard enough to get shop time in my own garage.
This forum does a great service, and I've had many a query answered here. It, along with my books, will just have to do. Since my TS accident, I'm much more attuned to my little "that's dangerous" voice, too. That's why I went out today and bought a 1/8" spiral upcut bit -- I decided I didn't want to plunge my stiles and rails onto the TS blade for screen-holding stopped grooves on a vegetable bin I'm building.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John D,Your first saw was a Unisaw!!!! WOW!!!!
With a name like John D., I would guess your last name is Rockefeller. You were born with a PhD in engineering. Your first car was a Maseratti. Your first wife was Paris Hilton. Is there any chance you would adopt me? If you go first, I want the Unisaw. I come from another universe. I was born in the Old Country (Connecticut) before moving to the New World (Virginia). I started woodworking while in graduate school, and having no money, by going to some garage sales and getting a bunch of hand tools and half-used boxes of screws and nails. Then I went to Sears and spent about $50 to buy a circular saw and a jig saw and some sandpaper. I went to the lumberyard and bought some chipboard for my first project -- a sewing machine seat (large box) for my wife. After I varnished it, I thought that those wood chips in the pressed wood (chipboard) glistened like diamonds. Oh well. So much for whining and thinking about my newbie days. I would rather do it your way -- one of each of the best before I got started. What til I tell my wife that I have corresponded with "John D." Her response will be the same as mine: "Rockefeller?". It was good to meet you, John D. I cant wait to find out what tools you "step up" to. Keep us posted. Tell me, do you have a CNC machine for precision routing? Please let me know if you want to get rid of your "old" tools. But don't post it!! Write directly to me. :-)
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hahahaa, well, funny to be taken for a rich guy. My current car is a Chrysler minivan, to go along with my five kids. I'm disease-free, so no Hilton sisters for me (well that, and I'm happily married).
You and I just started at different times. In college, my bookshelves were cinder blocks and 6' x 12" MDF planks. Now I've been working in the computer industry for decades, so when I decided to get into woodworking, I came here to Knots to find out what saw I should get. I learned plenty, and didn't see the point of going through three different saws -- the typical progression of benchtop, contractor then cabinet didn't make financial sense, since I knew what sort of work I wanted to do and you guys told me what sort of machines are typically used.
I've gone through this process on everything I've bought, so I've only replaced one machine (a 6" jointer I bought before I decided to put in 220v, replaced with an 8" Grizzly, sold the 6" to a guy here).
No Maserati's either... my wife needed the minivan today so I rode to work on my beater bicycle. :)
All kidding aside, I do feel rich -- nobody in my family has had to worry about a meal or a place to sleep -- as should most of us, I suspect.
Thanks for the ribbing. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John,
Congratulations! You are rich --in family (most important thing in the world) and in a maature understanding of how to outfit a woodworking shop. You bought the best first. It took me longer to figute that out than you did.
I take it that you five kids are still at home. My three are finished with graduate school, married and have jobs, and are living in CA, MD and FL. Like you, I am very proud of my brood. It is much quieter around here since they went off to find their fortunes. My wife is a quilter. So I do a lot of woodwork. Plan to retire soon, and will do even more woodwork. Family and woodwork -- that's where it's at. Keep up the good work. I'll follow your lead on tools from now on.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Between you and JimV I have a great example to follow. Yes, my kids are all still at home, the oldest is 16 and the youngest are 2; grandkids are still some time in the future. So I have a long wonderful way to go there, more in an adventure that's been the greatest ride of my life.
As to the woodworking, you two both have a great history I'd love to have had. Still, there's no time like the present -- every family tradition has to start somewhere -- so I'll just have to deal with being an older beginner. Maybe one of my kids, or even one of their kids, will end up someday with fond memories of working in the shop with me. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Mel,I've never thought about it, but I guess I would have to count myself among the fortunate. My grandfather was a cabinetmaker (he worked for the Hoosier Cabinet Company during the depression, I have the Hoosier cabinet he built for his new wife, my grandma, in my kitchen). I was raised working with wood. Although my own career has been in computers, I always had sawdust in my veins. When he passed on, I inherited his tools. Along with a beautiful assortment of every handtool I would ever need, I got a 1951 Unisaw (with the goose egg), a '59 6" Delta jointer (the old art-deco base), a 18" Oliver planer from the 60's. Every time I use one of those machines or pick up a plane or a back saw, I'm instantly 12 years old again, working by my grandpa's side.Jim
Edited 8/15/2006 10:44 pm ET by JimV
Jim,
you have been blessed. Having Grandpa's tools and remembering him in the shop is a very good thing. As John D. said, he and I have to start family traditions in woodworking. Actually, my youngest brother was the one who inspired me to get into woodworking. When he was in high school, taking a shop course, most of the kids built a shoe shine box or something like that. Lenny went to Ethan Allen and got a catalog with a picture of a 7' tall Early American hutch that he liked, and built it. PHENOMENAL! He took off from there. I looked at that and figured that if my kid brother could do it, so could I. I am "self taught", but like so many on Knots, I spent a lot of time with woodworking books. In a way, I am glad that I started with a circular saw and a jig saw and a homemade workbench on the porch of my apartment. I learned what could be done with such tools. After that, getting a contractor's saw opened up new worlds. I joked with the kids when they were growing up that when they get a job, they should send me a small check every two weeks. Haven't seen any checks yet. if I ever do, there may be a Unisaw in my future. :-)
I wish you and John D. "good woodworking".
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
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