In the latest Woodworkers Journal there’s a lengthy article on building a G&G dining room table. It’s just what I was looking for. Extremely complex project, so even at 7 or 8 pages long, the author had to omit a lot. In reading it, I came across something that has me stumped. He glued up the top out of 6/4 mahogany planed to 1″ thick, then banded it with 1″ thick rails, all the way around. The grain of the top runs side to side across the width of the table, meaning he glued up the long grain of the rails to the short grain of the top. With each half of the table top being about 30″ wide, this will cause major problems when the top moves with seasonal changes in humidity.
My guess is he addressed the expected expansion and contraction of the top in a manner I can’t discern from the article, though for the life of me, I don’t see how.
It looks like he attached each 30″ long rail with two or three 2″ wide splines. Even if he didn’t glue the rail in between each spline, this would still lock the long grain of the rail down tight to the short grain of the tabletop.
I hope this description makes sense.
Has anyone read this article and figured it out? WJ doesn’t have a website, or I’d post the question over there. I’d very much like to build this table, and while I could come up with a fix myself, I’d like to know how he did it.
Regards,
John
Replies
John,
Your description makes sense. And your concern about the problem with seasonal changes is well taken. The top is solid mahogany? And the rails are solid also? Bad news. The rails are the equivalent of the end pieces in a breadboard design. There has to be provision for movement of the top. Which in this case is in the long direction of the table.
Also . . . he planed the top from 6/4 mahaogany to 1 inch? A bit wasteful.
R
Glad you understood the description. Actually, the top is 1 1/16" if I remember right and the rails are 1 1/8", leaving a 1/16" reveal or ledge around the top. He didn't waste that much wood.
The more I think about it, the more I think he just glued it all together. The top is generally oval, with a cloud lift design to it. As a result, it required about 8 seperate pieces to make up each half of the table top rail. He biscuited and glued the rail together, then used a carefully shaped template to pattern rout the top to fit the rail. He then butt joint glued and splined the solid wood top to the solid wood rail.
You're correct in that the long sides of the table are the equivalent to a breadboard edge on a table where the grain runs lengthwise. Bad juju to glue all this together.
I can't imagine he charged the client under $3000 for the table, so I'm guessing (hoping) he addressed the seasonal expansion in a manner not clear when reading the article. He makes his living building furniture on commission, and his design/build skills are first rate, so I kinda doubt he commited the "crime" it looks like he did.
Any ideas?
Regards,
John
I haven't seen the article, but it wouldn't surprise me if he glued only the middle spline, and the outer ones are left unglued to form a sliding joint. One of the signature details of G&G furniture is a scheme that dresses up the ends of splines used to join breadboard ends to plank tops. The author probably couldn't help but be aware of wood movement.
Actually, there isn't an "end" to the breadboard rail. It goes all the way around the table. He biscuited and completely glued up the rail as one solid piece, then template routed the top to perfectly fit the inside profile of the rail. He then butt joint glued the top to the rail with spline reinforcements.
An obvious solution to the dilema would be to make the top out of plywood, which wouldn't experience the seasonal expansion. Down side of course is you have an awful fragile 1/64" veener, plus the need to cover exposed edges. Also, it doesn't have much strength to it. There's no support to the top on this table other than the 1 1/8" thick solid rail that trims out the table top and leaves. With both 24" wide leaves installed the table will seat 10, so it's a "big'un"
I'd much rather build the top and leaves out of solid wood, but the more I think about it, there's no easy solution to affixing the solid rail to the top. It needs to be perfectly flush with the ends of the table where the two halves (and leaves) meet. If not, you'd have an unsightly gap.
Another solution would to be to make my own plywood out of 3/4" MDF with a shop make resawn mahogany veneer (1/8" thick or so) on the top and bottom. I could then trim the exposed edges with solid mahogany that the veneer laps over. It'd work, but geez, that's a ton of work!!!!!
Anyone out there more clever than I?
Regards,
John
John,
I would not want to make that table out of solid wood. I'd use MDF and veneer it. Or Finnish ply and veneer it. Or I'd make a frame and panel construction, and still use MDF for the panel as I probably would not want any movement and the appearance of a continuous construction from the panel to the frame.
R
I was thinking the same thing. Don't own a veneer press but am always on the lookout for an excuse to buy a new tool!! As I explained in my post back to Jamie, I was considering resawing 1/8" mahogany to create a shopmade veneer that I could apply to both sides of a 3/4" MDF panel with yellow glue, overlapping a 1/2" thick solid mahogany edge I'd glue on first. I'd just weight the whole thing down with a couple of sheets of MDF with maybe a few weights on top of that. I could ensure alignment with masking tape before applying the weight.
Think this would work, or should I jump at this opportunity to buy a veneer press?
Regards,
John
John,
I wouldn't use a veneer press. I'd use hide hide glue and a hammer or "dry glue" and an iron.
Rich
Sorry, not familiar with dry glue and an iron. What is that? For that matter, what do you mean by hide glue and a hammer? I've used rubber cement and a hammer rather than a J roller to afix a veneer and sub-base before, but never hide glue. Wouldn't you need to clamp it up as well?
Thanks!!
John
John,
The "dry glue" veneering method utilizes PVA glue. White or yellow, even the water resistant kind. You spread glue on both the veneer and the substrate and let them completely dry.
Heat activates the dried PVA glue. You put the veneer in place and iron it down with an ordinary household iron (no steam). White glue needs about 180°. Yellow needs 240-260. Waterproof needs over 300 (never used it). White glue has a little softer glue line than yellow. Many workers use this method for the finest veneering. It can often be used to veneer only one side of a sufficiently thick substrate without and warping. It doesn't warp beacuse all the moisture has already evaporated.
Hot hide glue with a veneer hammer is the classic, centures-old technique of veneering. It forms the best bond, and is the best method once you learn how. It's also the method that almost always requires "balanced" construction - veneering of both sides. Although there are techniques to pre curl the substrate in the opposite curl first.
You spread the hot hide glue on the substrate, wet the veneer on its face side (it will curl too much if the face side isn't wet when the down side hits the glue), place it in place and smooth it out with the hammer. It takes a lot of practice to do it right. Sometimes areas that don't adhere need clamping with spot blocks, but in general, no clamping is needed.
A J roller just can't exert the line of pressure that the veneer hammer does.
R
Edited 10/24/2002 12:20:19 AM ET by Rich Rose
Thanks for the info. I was completely ignorant of dried glue veneering. Would this work with shopmade veneer 3/32" or even 1/8" thick? It seems that's a lot of wood for the heat of the iron to pass through. What's the maximum thickness veneer you can use with this method? I'd likely use the white glue and veneer both sides for asthetic reasons.
I think I'll resaw up some mahogany scraps and experiment with this. I'm in no great rush to build the table at the moment. The wood is gonna wind up costing me about $1500 or so, not even counting the 8-10 chairs I need to make next.
This hobby sure get's expensive, huh? :)
Regards,
John
John,
I've only used it with thin sheets of veneer. Wood being an insulator, it would seem that the thicker the veneer, the harder it would be to heat the glue.
Wonder if others have used thicker veneer with PVA?
R
John,
I did a commission a few months back that involved making a top much like the one you described. The table was based on a Greene and Greene design for the Thorsen House. The top was made of 1 1/4" MDF and veneered with shop saw Figured Maple. Around 3/32" thick. Pressed on with a vacuum press using urea glue. It worked well and completely deals with the problem of seasonal movement. It did take some time but would probably would probably be a good solution for your project. Check the gallery for Padauk Dining Table if your interested in seeing it.
1 1/4" thick huh? I was wondering if 3/4" MDF would be stiff enough, and was considering getting 1" instead. May just do that. My concern with going too thick is that the top may wind up so heavy that the extensions have trouble holding it up. Looked at your table - beautiful work!!!! Your point about using straight grained wood and allowing for only a few thousands of an inch top to bottom clearance on the T-slides makes sense. That should prevent the sagging I was worried about.
You may be interested in looking at the WJ issue this month. The author built the table I like based on the Robinson House table, which is nearly identical to the Gamble house model.
Thanks for the help!!!!
Regards,
John
John,
I think you might be confusing the Robinson house table with another. Although the Gamble house table top is very similar the bases for these two tables are quite different. Both very nice though.
One thing I'd like to mention is the use of splines between the table parts. I noticed in your other post you were concerned with the leaves sagging. The spline help to distribute the weight of the leaves as well as keeping everything lined up. You might not like the look of them protruding so pins would help also.
I believe that Jamie probably hit the nail on the head regarding the splines.
I also imagine that the author glued up the planks for the top while still in the rough - he jointed the edges but did not flatten the faces before glue up. After the slab was glued, he most likely combined the flattening operation with planing to desired thickness. This is what I do since I use all hand tools, and this is what one would have to do if he or she did not have a large drum sander or other machine to bring the top flat. Flattening and thicknessing one board at time before glue-up is really a sequence more appropriate for a woodworker running machines.
I'm not sure whether or not starting with 6/4 was wasteful or not, the boards may have been beautiful but perhaps they had a fair amount of distortion that required taking the unit down to an inch to achieve flat. I'd hate to start a large table project with only 5/4 stock since this would leave you with only a quarter inch or so of play to bring the top into flat AS A UNIT, which is all that matters in the end. I would feel like I had a knife at my throat the whole way, and I don't like that feeling.
Nine times out of ten, I'd buy the 6/4 stock and leave what I didn't need on the floor as chips. It's easy to make up for that 'waste' by not butchering wood for machine setups, mis-measurements, and that sort of rot.
MDF would be a cop out in my opinion. I wonder what the condition of the original is? Have you considered using a riftsawn or quartersawn species? A company by the name of Mahogany Hill might be able to help you. Do an internet search as I don't have their info. at my fingertips. Mahogany is in short supply in the U.S. at the moment.
I'd do a lot more research on the construction methods of the original and looking around for quality stock before I headed down to the MDF aisle at Home Depot.
Veneer over MDF will always give you the look that you want; keep that idea in your vest pocket until you've exhausted your other alternatives.
I'd very much like to know the condition of the original too. Trouble is, you can't get close to it. 6-8 feet is about as close as you can get to the Gamble House table, and the docent's move you along at a pretty good pace, so the visit isn't that long.
I carefully re-read the article last night and it's pretty clear that he glued the long grain of the solid rim to the short grain of the table top, using two 1" wide, 1/4" thick splines to assure vertical alignment. Each half of the top is 32" wide, so this is a heck of a lot of short grain to long grain contact. I simply don't see how that table top will absorb the hydraulic pressure of the wood movement without warping or even splitting.
I agree that an MDF core table top is not in keeping with the traditions of craftsman furniture, but I don't see any other way to create the top.
Regards,
John
Write or call the curator, tell him who you are and what you're doing, and ask him if the tabletop is split. If you can't tell from the tour, he might be knowledgeable enough to tell you if the top appears to be made of quartersawn or riftsawn stock.
These people usually love to talk about furniture and architecture with serious craftspeople. I would be very surprised if you were not treated very graciously on the phone, or if somebody would be willing to engage in an email exchange with you regarding the piece you're reproducing.
I am not a G&G expert, but I don't believe that the top is veneer over MDF or plywood. If you can ascertain that neither the top nor the banding is split, then there might be a bit of a 'mystery' to solve.
I may not be picturing the table in mind correctly, but I wonder if dovetailed keys would be an appropriate way of attaching the banding.
Edited 10/24/2002 12:04:27 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
John,
I too have been hurried by the Gamble house table and from where your standing it looks good. There is the table from the Thorsen house located in the Huntington Museum which houses a complete collection of Greene and Greene furniture. You can get a foot away from it if you want. It has a very similar top and looked to be in very good condition.
I don't believe they used MDF as well but that doesn't mean it's not an excellent choice for a substrate. Some of the finest furniture makers use it in their work. One example is Frank Pollaro who makes art cases for Stienway Piano. If it's good enough for him it's good enough for me. I hardly think it's a cop out. I think it's a good use of new materials available.
If you just can't live with a top of MDF than you could rip small narrow strips of flat sawn Mahogany. Orientate them so they are then edge grain. This is cheaper that buying edge grain to start with plus I feel the smaller strips will fair better as far as movement. You can then cross band this solid core with a veneer the same thickness as your top veneer. Then resaw and apply your veneer to this. A lot of work.
I've used this technique on smaller cabinet parts but never table tops. Wood will never stop moving. Of course edge grain will move less than flat sawn but it will still move. You might be asking for problems. Although Mahogany is a very stable wood and the Greene tables look to be holding up well.
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