I have been a hobbyist woodworker for 25 years. I have always enjoyed it but have never had the time to be more than just a hobbyist. I have worked with a Shopsmith and hand tools most of this time.
As I see retirement in the distant future, I have started building a new woodworking shop and plan first to invest in a table saw (the weakest part of my Shopsmith system). After a month of research, I am on the verge of buying a Grizzly Cabinet Saw because it sounds like a good product for the price. What are your recommendations? Will I be satisfied with the Grizzly for the next 25 years?
Thanks – I value your opinions.
Tony
Replies
The Grizzly is a good saw at a good price, and you probably wouldn't be disappointed if you bought one, but if you have the money you should take a closer look at the Saw Stop machine. It is the equal of the Grizzly in terms of performance, but the saw's state of the art safety equipment puts it in a class all by itself.
We have been using one here in the Fine Woodworking shop for a few months and I am personally surprised at the dramatically decreased stress that I experience when I use it compared to a regular saw. I have worked with saws, and a lot of equally dangerous machines, all of my life, without a serious accident, and have quite safe working habits. I never realized just how much I tensed up when using a table saw until I started working on the Saw Stop. Now that I've used one, I will have to reconsider what I will be using in my personal shop, though by the time I retire there will most likely be some other companies with competing designs that I would have to consider.
This isn't to say that it encourages me to work less safely, so far, if anything, I've become a little more aware of safety because I don't want to replace the cartridge and blade if I screw up, the prospect of financial pain seems more immediate than the physical oddly.
Of course if the system saves a finger, or even a finger tip, it will have easily paid for itself, but it is the comfort factor when using the saw that I am most aware of every time I use it. I'd love to hear from other people who use a Saw Stop to see if they have had a similar reaction to using one.
A MAJOR DISCLAIMER HERE: I have no personal or magazine related interest in the success or failure of the Saw Stop Company, in fact I hope their example will create a lot of competition for them in all types of power tools.
My comments are strictly personal, but if you are going to retire and buy a saw "for the next 25 years" I just felt that you should hear about the Saw Stop from someone with direct experience.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Edited 6/8/2006 12:18 pm ET by JohnWW
Edited 6/8/2006 12:24 pm ET by JohnWW
John,I haven't used a Saw Stop, but have looked one over at a local dealer's store. My impression was that, even without the innovative safety feature, it was a really good (if pricey) tool. I was particularly impressed with the fence and its ease of use/adjustment. Just curious -- after a few months with this saw, what do you think of the fence?
Pete,
The Saw Stop fence is a well made Biesemeyer clone with a minor refinement, also used by a few other manufacturers, for squaring up the face of the fence to the table top.
The fence had one annoying flaw, the system they designed to keep the head square to the fence while sliding it into position didn't work well. The result was that when you tried to position the fence at a certain distance from the blade, it would shift as you locked down the handle. The fix was easy, there's a metal wear strip between the cam on the locking handle and the back face of the front rail. I found that bending the strip inward slightly, until it pressed against the rail, keeps the fence square to the bar while it is slid into position and the fence no longer shifts while it is being locked.
John W.
John
I have immense respect for you and the folks at FWW and have been a subscriber to this and FHB for a couple of decades… but now that I have buttered you up I must disagree with you on the saw stop machine.
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I have a strong interest in safety and have followed this innovative design for several years. The first time I saw it at a wood show I was very impressed and figured it would be on every machine in the country in short order. The reason it isn’t on every machine is because of the outrageous royalties this company wants. It was just beyond what the market would bear and ALL the manufacturers agreed. Then the guy went to OSHA to try and force it in by safety code. They saw through the ploy and declined. So they started manufacturing their saw and are finding out what the other manufacturers told them, just too much profit in one small component. When they couldn’t compete in the market place, there are now looking to the trial lawyers and the courts to sue other companies over injuries.
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I am a hobbyist woodworker and do not work for any manufacturer. While their approach may be the rough and tumble practices of the overly competitive market in woodworking tools, I find it underhanded and distasteful. No one that I would care to sure my hard earned money with.
Regards, Ric
Ric,
Thank you for your compliments to the magazine.
I am unaware of the history behind the Saw Stop, so I simply can't comment on your allegations. I have never met with anyone from the company and, except for a few phone conversations with a Saw Stop technician, I've never talked to anyone at the company.
I judge the machine, and it is an excellent one for both the quality of the workmanship and the innovative design.
Life is too short to worry about the business ethics of each company I might deal with. Saw Stop may be guilty of the charges you level, but what about the ethics of Powermatic, or Jet, or Grizzly, or the dozen other makers of table saws. If I'm going to condemn one company, and not buy their product, I would then be obligated to investigate the ethics of any other company I would consider as an alternative, and where would it end?
John White
To me, that sounds like saying I should let a known sex offender babysit my daughters, because I've not done FBI checks on everyone else ever charged with their care.
We can only apply the knowledge we have. I won't deal with someone I feel is underhanded, even if I haven't time to play Morality Investigator and dig for dirt on everyone else.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John I agre that as consumers that we should be aware of a companies business practices, however I'm don't think that we have not heard the full story.
In your initial messae you stated that the 'royalties were too high', but gave no back up to this. What were the royalties, and what would the average cost increase be to a standard cabinet saw? Obviously the saw manufacturers decided that the consumers would not pay. I would like to read more about this so if you have a link please pass it on.
I was aware of the OSHA stuff, but not the lawyers. Again I think it would be helpfull if you passed on a link.
To me, that sounds like saying I should let a known sex offender babysit my daughters, because I've not done FBI checks on everyone else ever charged with their care.
This is a straw man argument. Of course he wouldn't let a sex offender babysit his children. He is not even insinuating this! Poor ethics is not illegal, sex offences are
I don't think he was insinuating anything, he was using a metaphor. Poor morals are poor morals.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I'm not sure to whom you intended to direct your remarks, but somehow I doubt it was me.-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Nope... It was JohnDD posting I must have switched the 'To' tab accidentally. Very Sorry.
Aack, it wasn't me. Dockside's the one who was talking about the SawStop's royalties. Look at post 3 in this thread. My only part of this thread was saying that I'd feel free to use all the information (giving the most reliable information the most weight) at my disposal when deciding on a purchase.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
It was the sex offender metaphor/argument that got me to hit reply. It was late.
Regardless I'm sorry.
John D.,
So far you haven't presented "knowledge", you are repeating stories without evidence. I will be glad to reconsider my opinion of the company when presented with some reasonably reliable evidence.
I'm an ex hippie, Buddhist, Vermonter, and do believe that all of our actions have consequences, but I feel obligated to make my decisions on the actions to take on facts not hearsay. As a Buddhist, I also believe in Karma and I am quite sure that in due time everyone will get what they richly deserve, but you must be patient.
John
Edited 6/14/2006 1:56 pm ET by JohnWW
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.htmlhttp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4182602http://www.physicscentral.com/people/people-01-10.pdf-Toby
Thanks for posting these links. It appears, as I originally thought, that the issues surrounding Sawstop are a little deeper than they first appear.
*** ALL
I'm not in that type of business can someone comment if the 3% and 8% royaltys mentioned are excessive? Regardless, the cost gets passed on to us, the consumer.
I think when we are are questioning the business ethics of a business we should look at both sides. Is it ethical to not include a safety device because of cost, market competition, or fear of litigation? I think you'd have a very hard time arguing that it is ethical.
Table saw manufacturers as a whole seem to be ignoring rather simple modifications that imporve the safety of a saw. Ignoring Sawstop for a second, a riving knife would be a safety improvement.
I didn't "repeat stories." I just said that it's illogical to say that one cannot make a personal judgement about a company's ethics based on reports about it, without also seeking out similar data on others. I neither repeated anything about the vendor under discussion, nor said I would or would not deal with them.
I agree that were I to repeat such assertions (I did not) as though I were an authority, I would be on shaky ground. If I advised someone here not to buy from SawStop (I have not), I'd be hard pressed to defend that advice, and any of the fine honest folks here would be welcome to call me on it -- including you. Particularly you, because I've read many, many helpful posts from you here.
Part of me wishes I'd bought a SawStop. If I'd done so, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have spent the last six months doing rehab. I didn't buy it, for two reasons. First, the price. Second, I'd read several times that the founder tried to sell the tech, and didn't really want to be running a saw company. So I was afraid of having this great tech, and nobody servicing or selling the brakes in 25 years. But that's just me, and you won't find a post from me telling others not to buy from SawStop.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John,I appreciate your candor. As far as business ethics are concerned... well, let's just say that no one in the power tool industry has exactly impressed me with their rectitude.I am in the market for a TS, but I have a few concerns. First, it does not appear to me that, aside from the Saw Stop, there have been any real improvements in safety by the major North American manufacturers/importers in the past 30+ years. Leaving aside the braking mechanism, what of riving knives, better blade guards, even more efficient dust collection? It's as if time stood still at the 1955 Unisaw. During that same time, we have seen padded dashboards, crumple zones, better seat/lap belts, air bags, shatter resistant windshields, etc in cars, but no significant changes in TS, at least on this side of the pond.I do have a concern about the Saw Stop, however. If the company does not succeed, owners of the TS would have essentially a white elephant. Parts could be very hard to come by- and it will need parts- on such a small installed base. I would not have a problem parting with the money for a SS if I was convinced that the company was here to stay, and had the finacials to make a go of it.Your thoughts?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Just a comment on an 8% per unit charge to Saw Stop. If you make a saw that costs $424.99 to get out the door and you sell that saw at $849.99 you get a 50% gross margin. If you add 8% to Saw Stop and expect to get the same Margin return on your dollar invested ( your share holders will ) then the sale price has to go beyond $1000.00. At this point we still have not added the cost of retooling or producing the Saw Stop mechanism all these costs will also have to produce the same margin while also increasing the payment to Saw Stop.If this adds $100.00 to the cost of production then you will have to sell the product at $1236.00 to maintain return. $386.00 sounds a lot less palatable than 8% . I see why there is resistance to this sort of demand .
John,How naive you are! Don't you know that SawStop is evil? You're dancin' with the devil. All the other saw companies are so moral and ethical in all their dealings that I'll bet they don't even have a need for a corporate lawyer.-TobyEdited 6/14/2006 8:57 am ET by tkb
Edited 6/14/2006 8:57 am ET by tkb
John
I am sorry for putting you in the position of receiving so much flak. I thought I was just replying to you.
And to all out there reading this, John's neutral position is much more open-minded then my rather opinionated position.
I went from a circle saw to the 1023 and to be straight up, the damn thing frightened me. Without fingers, I would be the end of my career so I approached it like a grenade with the pin pulled. Over the last four years I have come to terms with it but the standing rule here is NO ONE enters my shop if they can hear a power tool running. Unless the house is on fire, they wait until the task is done. And believe me I stay focused.
I am sure there is two sides to the saw stop story, I'm just very frustrated with what appears to ME to be a a bunch of lawyers in a cat fight.
BTW, on a different topic... I think I'm becoming rather addicted to all the good discussion and wonderful help many folks give freely here. Hats off to you guys, brilliant idea.
Ric
Edited 6/14/2006 9:08 pm ET by Dockside
I agree wholeheartedly. I would'nt buy their saw even if it was 4 times better than anything else. Trying to legislate their way to market share is a sure fire way to insure that I will never buy any of their products.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I was aware of their earlier attempts to mandate their technology and was pretty disgusted by it. This new attempt on law suits is new news to me if true and is even more distasteful. It conjurs up much of what's wrong with our justice system and is the type of thing that gives lawyers a bad name. I would have thought that they would learn their lesson about ticking off their customer base....who do they think will ultimately pay if they prevail? My intent isn't to doubt you, but I hope ts not true...
Hi John,
Any close calls with relatively moist wood triggering the mechanism?
Any "false triggers" to report?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Jazzdog,
The saw will detect wood that is too wet and will shut down, without triggering the brake mechanism, and give an error code on the small control panel. To restart the saw and continue the cut in the wet wood you can disable the safety mechanism with a key operated switch. So far, I have cut a few pieces of moderately wet pressure treated wood on the saw without having to bypass the safety.
We have not had any false triggers, but we have had the unit fire off once when a miter gauge with an accessory aluminum fence was run into the blade. The brake worked exactly as designed and the nick in the fence was barely visible. It gave me a great prop for show and tell. You can cut metal on the saw, but as with cutting very wet wood, the safety circuit needs to be switched off.
John White
Thanks for the reply, John; I was unaware of those features.
We've been considering them for our college woodworking program, but were concerned because we so often work with green wood for chair making, turning, etc.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Wasn't this thread originally about Grizzly cab saws?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
John,
It's nice to hear from somebody who actually has used the saw for an appreciable amount of time. I was not aware that the saw would sense wood with an elevated moisture content and shut down (I figured that it would false trigger and require a replacement cartridge and blade). Thanks for the info.
I've heard so much negative about the way the Sawstop company did business or tried to force their technology down the industries throat, etc., etc. The quality of the saw has gotten lost in the rhetoric.
It's hard to say what the truth is (about the business practices of the Sawstop company) but I have a feeling that there is a good deal of misinformation running around the internet forums regarding the matter.
Maybe FWW could do an updated article about the saw, not from a technical point of view, but from the marketing point of view and addressing some of the accusations against the company.
I know you personally do not have anything to do with this sort of thing, but the readers of FWW (myself included) might like to hear from the Sawstop company what their position is, before they are condemned by the court of public opinion.
I've heard it over and over again that the saw is well regarded but many people would not buy it due to the business ethics of the principles. I'm sure they would like the opportunity to set the record straight. I'd like to know from them, directly, what their side of the story is.
Best Regards,
David C.
"It's hard to say what the truth is (about the business practices of the Sawstop company) but I have a feeling that there is a good deal of misinformation running around the internet forums regarding the matter."
One piece of information that's always missing from these discussions is how the big companies (Jet, Delta specifically, and perhaps others), jerked the SawStop owner around, leading him to believe that they would be very interested in utilizing the feature on their saws, and then sitting down with him opposite a roomful of attorneys, who found a reason to not take advantage of the mechanism, using some seriously dumb arguments.
I read about this early last year, IIRC, but have not been able to "re-find" the on-line article despite diligent searching. If anyone has the link, please post it here.
It's apparent, from this and earlier discussions, that some people feel so strongly about the personal freedom issue that they will never forgive anyone who tries to institute a requirement in the way the SS owner did, no matter how valuable the actual invention is. That's their prerogative.
Whatever he did, or why he did it, I find I have to admire him for putting himself on the line and getting this piece of machinery in production and marketed, going up against the Big Boys in a big way and, near as can be seen, succeeding! It's a rare, rare event in this age of mega-corporations and big fish eating up small fish.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/15/2006 5:09 pm by forestgirl
"near as can be seen, succeeding!"
Hi Jamie,
I, for one, would love to be a proverbial "Fly on the wall" when they review their books following their second year in business.
If my career in business taught me anything, it is that, no matter what pundits and uninformed observers may have to say, the view from inside a company is almost always far more complicated than outsiders can infer or imagine.
The single largest mistake I see most American companies (e.g.: Rockler) making involves focusing too much on short-term profit: "Gee, why are we losing market share when we've done so much quarter after quarter to reduce cost-of-sales by outsourcing jobs and manufacturing?" Could it have anything to do with customer dissatisfaction because of lack of innovation and inordinate sales of cheap junk made off-shore?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I doubt they're expecting to see a huge black number anytime soon. Just getting where they are must be a major achievement, dontcha think? It's not like he's Bill Gates, just having fun, designing and manufacturing a new toy with his pocket change for funding.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA04/pubcom/REDUCEPT2.pdf
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA04/pubcom/REDUCEPT1.pdf
Not sure if these are the ones you were referring to or not, probably not but pretty interesting.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Hi, DG, no neither of those was the article I read. It was something like a trade or business magazine article, on-line presentation. Drivin' me nuts that I can't find it, as I usually bookmark stuff like that! Covered the background of his developing discussions with Delta and WMH, and the meeting they had and the results (stonewalled). I'll find it someday, but not today--work awaits.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What to buy,
Unfortunately, John is hiting the nail on the head. I'm very happy with my Grizzly 1023s but there was no Saw Stop when I bought mine and therefore did not have to make a choice. Good luck with your decision.
I had the Shop smith until I bouth he 1023slx. Had it now for a while and don't regret it at all. I am a hobbyist, and it has tons of power and was dead on. The shopsmith is actiing as a sander for moment(until it gets sold). Here is my link to the original post.
I would agree the sawstop would be nice, but at over 2k, I could not afford one and it was not out yet. Having said that, I am still very pleased with the choice.
Will it be here 25 years from now, come back and ask me in 25 years, but it is made solid and I don't think you will have second thoughs. I also own the griz 17" bs and like that one as well. Take care and enjoy the new toy what ever brand you decide on.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=4957.1
Thanks bones!!....especially for the link to previous post and pics. Tell me - do you recommend the 7" rails? What other accessories do you recommend?
Tony
I replaced the standard gaurd with the over arm gaurd from PSI. I like being able to kick it up out of the way and the dust pick up. I would reccomend the 7' rails. It gives you a lot of room on the table and the bessy style fence glides easily (I do keep a good coat of floor wax on it). If you want to be able to move it around, go ahead and get the shop fox base. If you select accessories when you buy the saw, the right version will show up. I got the extention kit for mine base since I had the 7' rails. If you ever have to move the beast, you will appreciate the base! I use a zero clearance insert with a forrest WWII blade heck of a combo. I also use the splitter from microjig and the grippr system. For feather boards I have a grip-tite. While not required, I have found them very useful. If you have any other questions just let me know. Have fun with the new toy. If you are use to a shopsmith you are in for a big treat when you make those first few cuts with the Griz! Take care.
P.S. Remember you are ordering mail order. When the box arrives (by common carrier), inspect the box! Note any damage on the shipper's manifest you will be asked to sign. If the box is very damaged refuse shippment! My first one was damaged by the carrier (not grizz's fault). I wanted it so bad, it was tempting to just take it, but I did not. Took a few digital pics just to back up any issues that may come up. CS was great and had another one out to me the next day and I had it in a week.
Edited 6/8/2006 11:32 pm ET by bones
I think a new Shop Smith will cost you about $2400.00 if you bought one today. Yes it will do more then the Saw Stop will beyond the table saw function, but if I had to make the decision today, I would put the $2400.00 into the Saw Stop.
I have a Shop Smith and it gets used only for disc and drum sanding.
The 1023 I've used was as impressive as the Jet cabinet saw I've used.....it's about the best bang for the buck in it's class.
....Note that the total for a SawStop comparably equipped and delivered will be over 3x he cost of the Griz.
what to buy,
I own one and it's much better than the Delta I gave away. I wouldn't use it as the center of my wood working hobby. it's a ripping tool at best and every thing else requires jigs of some sort to make it work..
I'd have a great cross cut saw like a sliding compound mitre saw or a good radial arm saw..
I'd have a good band saw and use it for much of the ripping work.
I've had a 1023 for more than 15 years and it still works great. The shortcomings of this machine (ca. 1990 vintage) have been addressed in newer models.
Get the longer rails, and be sure there is a motor cover. Get the best fence you can afford. And don't forget a set of hold downs, feather boards, etc. They will give you better cuts and are cheaper than a SawStop (and you'll have no reason to get your fingers close to the blade).
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