has anyone had any experience with the new model grizzly G0586 8″ jointer? it is an 8″ jointer with 2hp motor and 4 blade cutterhead with 75 inch bed for 625.00. this sounds like a heck of a deal to me. what do you guys think?
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Replies
Hi J. I bought one this summer and had a bad experience with it. It arrived with rust all over underneath it, way up inside it. I didn't see it until I got the thing down into my basement workshop, and I was crouched down assembling some stuff with the jointer up on its stand. I looked up and about crapped--up inside where the adjustment screws and stuff are was covered with rust. The other end of the jointer was pretty much the same. Much of the rust in those places was very deep and crusty. The underside of the tables had numerous patches of rust that were not as deep and smaller. I returned it and they refunded me all of my money, period. I understand they usually make you pay to ship things back, but they paid for this one. That's about the only high point of my purchase. They gave me my money back and paid to retrieve their machine. I'm glad they did the right thing, but I would have been a lot happier with their service if they'd sent me a nice jointer in the first place. Getting that thing back up out of my basement, building a crate for it, and then hauling it to a freight terminal was a HUGE pain. It was a huge relief to unload the thing and get my refund about a week later. I know a lot of people have had good experiences with Grizzly. I decided to buy the jointer largely based upon the good experiences of others with their jointers more generally.
Sure, you can have a bad experience with any company; this is just my random bad experience with the jointer you asked about. I'm not a "basher" of anyone. My experience shouldn't be discounted or taken as the norm either. All I can say is use caution. I feel very fortunate to have learned a lesson without being robbed in the process. In the future I will be buying my equipment elsewhere.
From Leo's post above and bolded for emphasis.
"Getting that thing back up out of my basement, building a crate for it, and then hauling it to a freight terminal was a HUGE pain."
Caveat emptor.
LeoL,
Maybe you have to buy a bigger machine to get Grizzly's more generous return policies? I got no such offer when my machine was a lemon.I'm sure I'll be insulted soon for writing this.
Edited 10/18/2005 5:11 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Did they offer a replacement, or did you just request a refund?1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Hi Rick. They offered to send me another one right away, saying they would have someone personally inspect it prior to shipment. I declined. I just wanted my money back and didn't feel like dealing with them anymore. Plus, the first machine had issues that were not related to rust, like the large amount of slop in the dovetails of the ways. So while the rust may have been some sort of aberration, there wasn't anything so great about the first machine to make me feel it was worth taking a second chance.
Everyone,
As this discussion goes on, it is revealing precisely the issues I have been talking about. Inconsistent quality is fine if the customer is covered by generous shipping and returns policies. But when shipping and returns are laborious and costly to the customer, it is a risk buying from that company. And it seems clear that Grizzly's quality is inconsistent enough that their shipping and return policies are risky to the consumer.Some people have great experiences with Grizzly; some people have nightmares with Grizzly. Given their shipping/return policies, I think this translates into too much risk for the consumer. It's not just Grizzly, but any company with similar policies and inconsistent quality.I think it's important for customers to hear this kind of information when they contemplate major tool purchases, especially in the modern tool-production environment. This is all I have been trying to say.It's unfortunate that some people here think I should just be quiet on this important matter.
Edited 10/19/2005 10:10 am ET by MatthewSchenker
<<I think it's important for customers to hear this kind of information when they contemplate major tool purchases, especially in the modern tool-production environment.
This is all I have been trying to say.
It's unfortunate that some people here think I should just be quiet on this important matter.>>
Matthew,
You have a right to express your opinion- and you do. But your experience with Grizzly is just one person's- your "singlemindedness" on the subject has taken on a crusading quality.
For what it's worth, I don't own any Grizzly tools or products. I don't work for them, nor does my brother-in-law; I don't own any Grizzly stock. I've no dog in this fight, but I'd offer a few observations:
1. Grizzly makes their tools at a price point. To achieve that price, they do off-shore manufacturing, have a limited number of show rooms and a restrictive (though not unusual) return/shipping policy (which is posted on their web site). Many feel that the price and the quality justifies purchasing Grizzly tools. Some will be disappointed, others quite happy. If this risk does not appeal to you, then buy a General machine from a local distributor. You will pay more, but risk less.
2. Other manufacturers have similar risks. Many brands formerly thought sterling are experiencing their own problems and complaints- Delta and Dewalt come to mind. Other brands seem to have fewer issues, e.g. General (no I don't own stock in them either). There is pretty much a straight line in price from Harbor Tools to "Acme" to Grizzly to General. Bottom line: you (usually) get what you pay for.
3. In my own opinion (and it is just an opinion), it is reasonable to expect a tool to arrive in working condition, without rust, etc. Not all tools do. It is NOT reasonable to expect the same customer service from a low price point provider as from a premium distributor. Such service costs money, and you pay for it from the premium brand, and pay less to the low cost provider. It's that simple: there is no free lunch. So if you expect a BMW service plan, don't buy a Chevy.
4. When people post complaints about companies/tools there is an inevitable selection bias. Those who are unhappy are much more likely to post than those who are satisfied. When someone does it repeatedly and at length, it makes me curious about their motives. Are they engaged in consumer education, or a negative advertising campaign? There are also those who use forums such as this to either shill or disinform for a company or product. I take you at your word that you are sincerely motivated to inform, but you should realize that if your posts go over the top, it will hurt your credibility.
5. There is a variability in posted experiences with Grizzly customer service. One poster had his money and shipping charges refunded, you didn't. Perhaps his case was different from yours, perhaps Grizzly has been getting heat and has had to readdress their customer service policies, perhaps the Grizzly rep you dealt with was a jerk. Or perhaps you went about it in a way that was unhelpful to your own cause, and the company felt they could do nothing to satisfy you and simply bailed. I don't know... but your posts here make me wonder.
6. As for your "(keeping) quiet on this important matter"- I don't see much danger of that.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
We are generally in agreement on the essential points of making tool choices and what that means.However, I do not think I have been singleminded. I have been very careful, even in the midst of personal attacks, to be fair about this. I have repeated many times that this is MY experience and that other people obviously have better experiences with Grizzly. I've even recommended Grizzly to people in cases where they do not have to take the risk of shipping.Far from being single-minded, I am making a larger point about choosing to buy major tools from mail-order companies with questionable shipping/return policies and quality records. You said that we "get what we pay for." I agree. But I think a lot of people do sometimes assume they could get higher quality for a lower price. My point in all these discussions, which is in agreement with you, is that we need to be more aware of the risks of that assumption. It is not just about Grizzly. But my experience is with Grizzly, so I can only honestly talk about that company.You said that "Those who are unhappy are much more likely to post than those who are satisfied." Maybe, but not me! Look at my record. I post far more often when I am happy. I have no vested interest in putting Grizzly down! Far from it, I wanted to be one of their customers, as shown by the fact that I bought one of their tools!!!I disagree that my posts have "gone over the top." Again, I have been careful to limit my criticism to specifics. Generally speaking, I have also been cordial with those who disagree with me or even insulted me personally. Look at the record!You are not the first to imply that perhaps I did not get service from Grizzly because of my attitude. Your statement that "...your posts here make me wonder" is not based on the facts. Most of my posts here on Knots would be appropiate for discussions with Grizzly personnel! I was always courteous to the Grizzly people I contacted. When I spoke on the phone, e-mailed, or met Grizzly people in person at AWFS in Las Vegas, I was nothing but friendly. I even wrote about this here on Knots, saying how much I liked the Grizzly reps on a personal level. It's a straw dummy to make my posts out to be discourteous and somehow the reason I got bad service.I've said it before. I am compelled to communicate information to others, whether it's good or bad, or more hazy. I don't think it helps anybody if we have knowledge to share and don't share it. Of course, people can choose not to share it, but those of us who do should not be shouted down.
Edited 10/19/2005 11:58 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Michael !
Here is a suggestion for a time and space saver :-)
Use the following keycode for responses to "Grizzly Topics"1. Things made by Grizzly are bad
2. My drill press sucks
3. Grizzly made me feel bad
4. Grizzly won't buy me a Moore Jig Borer
5. If you like Grizzly products you don't know what your talking about
6. Email me privately and I'll tell you why grizzly is bad
7. My drill press makes me feel bad
8. Grizzly is bad
9. See I told you Grizzly is badThis way you can sum up, reply, quickly and succinctly.For example you could simply respond with...Schenker Code 1,6,9 :-)
aaaaaaaahahahahahahaaaa!!!!!That was great!
thanks for your reply. sorry to hear you had so much trouble with the grizzly. surely this wouldn't be the case in all of their model 0526 jointers. i have only bought one item from grizzly (dust collector) and am very pleased with it. cant say as i blame you for buying somewhwer else next time.
I have owned the Grizzly G0500 8inch jointer for 2 years.I have been pleased with all of Grizzly equipment-1023Z table saw,G0555 14 inch band saw,G1071 oscillating sander and 1029Z dust collector.I admit upon receiving my first catalog from Grizzly that I was a little aprehensive purchasing from them .Then one day I bought some lumber from a new supplier .He not only sells lumber but manufactures flooring and every machine in his shop was guess what-Grizzly!! He assured me that all of his equipment is used day in and day out without problems.This is when I decided to make my purchases and get away from my problematic Craftsman and Delta machines.I hate the idea of buying foreign made products but anyone who has looked to see where Delta and Craftman are manufactured knows that they are all foreign made.P.S. the 1and only problem I did have was with the sliding cross cut table I bought for the table saw.Upon realizing what was wrong I contacted Grizzly ,they had the new part on my doorstep the following day.I was impressed!-tyford
Hi Tyford. I'm glad your experiences with Grizzly have been good. Mine just happened to be bad. I ultimately base my opinion of a company on my own interaction with them, just like you have with yours. I shared my experience because the original poster in this thread asked about anyone who'd had experiences with this specific jointer, and I thought my experience was significant and worth sharing. Hardly anyone has replied with other information about this specific jointer. Maybe one other guy? I don't want to get involved in a larger discussion of Grizzly's quality or lack of quality. Their other machines and models of jointers may well reflect a more polished level of quality than this new model of machine. So I don't know that experiences with them necessarily translate to useful information about what to expect with this new machine. And the original poster's inquiry was very specific. Still, I'm glad your experiences have been good.
Interesting message. Sounds familiar!
but I would have been a lot happier with their service if they'd sent me a nice jointer in the first place.. I have no idea... BUT I worked for a place that spent MILLIONS trying to get things shipped by sea in good shape.. We never made it!Put grease all over everything to protect on the containor ship from salt.. Customer complaind about the crud' on it?...We never won!
jmckee44,
In the latest issue of FWW (got mine yesterday) the jointers are evaluated by Willaim Duckworth. The Griz #500 came out as the best buy...although the 586 looks better with the controls on top. There is a video clip on the home page here with the highlights of his evaluation.
i'll try to view that video. thanks for the info. i agree that the controls on top would be better. also the 0526 is $625.00 and the 0500 is on close out now for $695.00. looks like basically the same machine except fot the controls. i am just wondering why they price the 0526 cheaper and now they are closing out the 0500.
Uhhhhhm, sort of a correction here, BG -- the Grizzly came out as the Best Overall. The Yorkcraft was elected Best Value. "Best Buy" to me translates to "Best Value" which is often simply the cheapest one that works. The Grizzly had several features that were preferable to the other machines, plus "dead flat and perfectly aligned" tables and "perfectly aligned" knives.
I was surprised how many of the jointers arrived with knicked knives. Sheesh! Fence on the Yorkcraft is rack and pinion. Cool but is it that much of a deal? I dunno.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG,
After watching the movie, I only did a brief overview of the article...missing the 'best value' honors for Yorkcraft as the symbol was under my thumb. I do kinda wonder where the Yorkcraft would be on the value scale once shipping costs are added to the picture.
forestgirl,
You wrote this regarding the Yorkcraft jointer, which earned "best value" in the tool test:
"Best Value... is often simply the cheapest one that works."I did't read it that way, and I don't know how you arrived at this judgement.But it is interesting you interpret it this way, since Grizzly machines have been winning "best value" in lots of woodworking magazines for quite some time.Maybe the Fine Woodworking folks can tell us what exactly "best value" means.
Edited 10/19/2005 5:16 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
I have to say that if I were buying in this genre (pardon the unusual use of the term) then I would buy General and assume that I'd gotten the best. Felder it is not but it is measurably better than Grizzly regardless of tests by magazines.
I worked temporarily out of a shop on the coast several years ago on a yacht interior re-fit. Almost all the equipment was General and it was more than adequate.
I had my own bad experience with General International. I took the plunge and bought a G.I. 50-185 Contractors Saw.......2.5hr round trip to the dealer (There's not many G.I dealers...2 in my state)
Got the saw home and fully assembled only to figure out that the Arbor Bracket was defective allowing the blade to make hard contact with the bottom of the front trunion.
Nobody was precisely sure what was wrong...But G.I wanted to send me an Arbor Bracket if I was willing to replace it. I felt like we were going to some kind of long distance trial and error easter egg hunt repair effort with me doing all the work and waiting for parts.......I'm not a machinist and this was my first Contractor Saw
When I balked at that bit of warranty repair, the best that could be done was tearing the saw down, loading it back in the truck and exchanging it. No offer of compensation for my trouble at all. G.I. would not ship a replacement to my house...if I wanted to exchange it, I would have to make the trip.
Should have went with the Rigid.........at least home depot is close
Review with picture http://home.wavecable.com/`m9er
Mike
Edited 3/5/2006 12:02 am ET by m9er
bought one a couple of years age. I am absolutely delighted. It does everything I think a joiner should do, makes the wood flat & smooth. When they dropped the price I thought very hard about where I would put another one. I have a one-man shop.
I have bought a couple of tools from grizzley and will buy more as the occasion arises. I think they have a good thing going. good luck
john
thanks for the reply. thats what i wanted to hear, however i think the cons outnumber the pros at this time. i also have a one man shop and would have to make room for this big jointer. i could probably get by with the 6 inch or the short bed 8 inch but the price on this jointer is almost too good to pass up.
I bought the G0568 8" jointer about a month ago. it looks like a prettey good machine. But i got a bad motor on mine. Grizzley cost. service is not too hot.they think i am some kind of electrition or electric motor mechanic. they say try this or try that. They are hard to get on the telephone { busy signel all the time} and they dont answer e mails eather. I have other Grizzley machines and had good luck with them.
Have a nice day Lee
thanks for the reply. i hope the replacement motor solved all your problems with the jointer. that should never happen on a new piece of machinery but i know it does occassionally. sound like your luck runs about like mine. i really think it is a nice piece of equipment and has a heck of a good price.
That motor was probebley made in China on a bad day.
Have a nice day Lee
J: I think that there is a lot more to buying a piece of machinery then any one aspect of the purchase. If you get a lemon on the purchase of a, for example, a hammer or a toaster there is very little involved in a return. Naturally a jointer or drill press is way more complicated and heavy and expensive.
Thats my $.02 for what it's worth. Duke
The Bill of Rights
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Well said. The Yugo-Rolls analogy is spot on.
"It's just as good and it cost less than half" might occassionally be true but I wouldn't count on it in the long run. As I've said in these posts many times, most people have never worked with super high-end machinery or really even average high end like Northfield. Their basis of comparison is other Taiwanese equipment run head-to-head in magazine reviews.
Lots of slick decals proclaiming "Professional," "Heavy Duty" and other scintillating adjectives are usually anything but.
charles,
This may be the root of my dilemma!
The last Grizzly catalog I got in the mail had an embossed, varnished, four-color process front and back cover. That money could be better spent on the machines or a more liberal policy regarding return freight.
Edited 10/21/2005 3:10 pm ET by charlesstanford
charles,
I worked with an engineer who actually saved Grizzly catalogs. There was one catalog that Grizzly said was a "Collectors Edition" or something like that.
The last Grizzly catalog I got in the mail had an embossed, varnished, four-color process front and back cover.
Yea, heaven forbid they they spend any money on marketing (:sarcasm:). 'better tell those Lee Valley folks to stop producing their pretty catalogs as well. Come to mention it, the Felder website looks like it cost too much money to develop as well.
That money could be better spent on the machines or a more liberal policy regarding return freight.
Just repeating over and over again that Grizzly has a bad policy about return freight doesn't make it so. The politicians and their allies seemed to have found out that if they repeat non-truths enough times, a certain portion of the population will believe it. But that's not the case here.
I agree with you 100%.
Grizzly has a fine marketing program.
Sure they are, depending on the context-if you're a hobbyist, a $600 8' jointer looks pretty darned professional if all you've ever seen is a tabletop model.
I once worked in a production shop where we did high-end retail fixtures (Kenneth Cole, Nine West, etc. etc.) and the PM66s they had were toys compared to the beam saw and all that. Everything I have in my own humble shop looks like a trinket by comparison, though I will never come close to pushing the equipment to its straining point. So maybe for my purposes, it is "professional", even though a working pro would burn it all out in a year.
Just a thought.
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Edited 10/24/2005 4:09 pm ET by JJV
Interesting discussion. Chiming in on Grizzly, I have noted that they tend to get good reviews from several of the woodworking magazines. I do believe there is an element of "you get what you pay for". I have not seen any discussion lately about rehabbing a used machine. The only new machine I have is a 6" grizzly jointer that works fine (couldn't pass up the sale they had on it a couple of years ago). No problems with delivery, assembly, etc. and customer servcie was fine (but no problems to speak of either)
Have you considered looking for an old oliver 8" jointer? My experience is you get a lot better machine/machining (with some elbow grease) in a older used tool that what is being produced today on either side of the Pacific.
Check out local school district salvage departments and auctions if that sounds interesting. I even got an old bandsaw from here...took some work but works like a dream now..plus I was able to get the owner to throw in 100bd ft of air dried walnut with some humming and hawwing (I was very pleased with the deal if you can't tell!). I have found that in doing some of the "elbow grease" work helps me know the machine better and tweak a better performance out of it. Lots of resources on the web/books/mags for purchasing, estimating value, fixing-up and finding parts. hope that is helpful-Eric
Edited 10/21/2005 1:10 pm ET by EricinOC
Grizzly is reviewed by the same magazines in which it advertises. As far as I'm concerned all these reviews are prima facie conflicts of interest, and I take them with a truckload of salt regardless of editors' assertions otherwise. If you were smart, you would too.
"Editors Choice" "Best Value" and all the rest seem to be rewarded on enough of a rotating basis between brands that potential consumers are never really left with a case of heartburn regarding any particular company.
I would be curious to know what Fine Woodworking's definition of "best value" is. I have a lot of respect for Fine Woodworking, and I would want to know what their criteria are for this designation.
It's nothing but a platitude awarded, again, on a rotating basis to advertisers who sell equipment cheaply. Or, more sternly put, sell cheap equipment.
I find it interesting that so far no one has mentioned that Grizzly has not advertised in FWW for several years. Apparently, Grizzly was unhappy with a review in which their machine didn't get the kind of accolades they though they deserved. (I only use hand tools so I find this machine discussion very amusing).
Never noticed. My post used the term "magazines." However, maybe FW would like to have a little of that income stream back. That might tend to bias the results even more.
Curious where you came across that tidbit of information about the falling out. Doesn't seem like something the general public would be privy to.
I'm the shop manager for Fine Woodworking Magazine, and yes, Grizzly many years ago decided not to advertise in the magazine because we rarely gave them a good review, because they didn't deserve good reviews, given the quality of their tools back then.Recently they have improved their quality while still maintaing a very competitive price and because of that they are getting better reviews. We review all tools based strictly on their merits, neither I or any editor here has ever been asked to bias a review in the hopes of keeping or gaining a customer and personally I resent the baseless accusation. I read such comments on occasion, and for the most part keep my temper in check, at least on line, but this has been a long week, spent packing up the 8" jointers from the recent review in fact, and I felt the need to set the record straight.John WhiteEdited 10/21/2005 6:29 pm ET by JohnWW
Edited 10/21/2005 11:12 pm ET by JohnWW
John,
I've never questioned your integrity. You answered the way you do the tests and I took that as a good thing.Hey, I look forward to Fine Woodworking every month!I just wanted an idea of what the "best value" designation means. It may have a different connotation in different magazines.
Matthew,I was replying only to Charles Stanford's comment implying that the magazine was giving Grizzly better reviews perhaps as an inducement to get them to advertise in the magazine again, nothing you have written struck me as out of line.I don't know what our official definition of "best value" is, but I would define it as the least expensive tool that will reliably do the job it was designed to do.John W.
I guess I simplify things. Any product should preform to the standards the manufacturer or seller claims. If it does not, the buyer should be restored to the position he or she was before the purchase, regardless of price or shipping cost.
Just my opinion,
Grits
They have a relatively short track record of quality, is that what you're saying?
You are also stating explicitly that Grizzly won't advertise in magazines that don't give its equipment good reviews. That's pretty explosive information and I wonder what they think about your assertion. When we do read a good review on a Grizzly tool, at least in another magazine, then we can strongly suspect that there was a quid pro quo? How does that make you feel about Grizzly the company, your assertion about the 'improvement' of their equipment aside? I kind of get a bad taste in my mouth, don't you? A lot of buyers triangulate reviews from the other mags and based on what you've divulged here that sounds like a bad idea.
There is a concept in the legal, accounting, and other professions known as independence in fact AND appearance. Reviewing equipment from companies who pay to advertise in your magazine (or are potential advertisers) undoubtedly fails on the latter and probably on the former, your assertions notwithstanding. Fine Woodworking cannot maintain an appearance of independence by reviewing products sold by its advertisers. An art or literary critic would never write a critique of the work of a close friend or family member or someone with whom they had a business relationship.
John, take some advice from somebody who has had some of their posts deleted - delete yours before it gets you into trouble. You've stuck your foot not only in your mouth but all the way down your throat as far as it will go.
Edited 10/21/2005 8:55 pm ET by charlesstanford
<You've stuck your foot not only in your mouth but all the way down your throat as far as it will go>
Well, Charles, that would seem to be a part of your anatomy that you would have first hand experience with.
I'm not sure what parallel universe you are presently inhabiting, but FWW, like most publications survives on advertising revenue. The fact that they have panned Grizzly in the past and lost their account would suggest they are willing to put principle before profit.
Tool reviews are just one source of information. Not all tools will be covered, and testing a single tool is not a statistically valid sample. That said, a review can provide information regarding the design, components and construction of a tool. It won't say much about longevity, for example. It might discuss a significant flaw or design issue.
What is also true is that those who review tools- or wines or restaurants- put their names on their work. If they are shilling for a brand, their reviews will lose credibility- and subscribers. So a magazine that has spent 30 years establishing a reputation has a lot to lose if it sells out to please an advertiser. Similarly, a writer or editor who candy coats a review will not have much of a career.
You have been pretty free in attacking FWW, its editors and issues and pontificating about what it should be, in your less than humble opinion. Since you and the two or three other like minded misanthropes are probably not loyal enough to sustain a newsletter, let alone a magazine, I don't think the editors are counting on your subscription to make their nut. You tend to invoke conspiracy theories to explain coincidences (was that Tom Lie-Nielsen on the grassy knoll...?) and you are singularly intolerant of any view that is not your own, and fairly grandiose about prescribing normative behavior. I'm not sure if you are unbalanced, unwell or just off your medication but being cranky and rude isn't likely to win you any converts.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I've actually been a subscriber for many years and continue to keep my subscription as difficult as it is to glean something useful out of it these days. I've bought many, many Taunton Press books over the years. I guess I've got a chip in the big game if one is required.
One cannot maintain the appearance of independence when one has business relationships with companies whose services and products it critiques. Period. Especially if the business relationship is the major source of revenue as advertising certainly is for a magazine like FW.
I'd love to see FW get out of the tool review business and back to woodworking. When Minoru Yamasaki designed the World Trade Center nobody gave a damn what drafting vellum or pencil brand he used. Capeesh? It is presumed that if he is capable of "Fine Architecture" that he is also capable of choosing his own software, paper, and pencils. Can we not impute this same presumption to those who would read and aspire to "Fine Woodworking"? I think so. When a sculptor creates a masterpiece it is only the wannabe who asks what brand of clay and sculpting knives were used. Those truly interested in art are curious about how the work was composed and other matters like that. If the piece is in you it's coming out regardless of whose tools you use.
FW has the ability to be the journal of record for fine furnituremaking and other high-level woodworking. It seems bound and determined not to be (or relinquish the title) and I think that's a shame. Reviewing cheap tablesaws, brad point bits, and stuff like that is really disheartening. The low-end is covered by two or three other publications.
It is troubling to me that Grizzly pulls advertising based on the conclusion of reviews of its equipment. According to John, they expect quid pro quo for the advertising dollars spent and it is in the form of a "good" review of its equipment. While it is hard to argue with Grizzly's pragmatism, its bona fides are certainly in question. Not much doubt about that. Still surprised that a representative of FW would touch that hot potato. Nobody ever said these forums weren't entertaining.
Edited 10/22/2005 12:19 pm ET by charlesstanford
I second that motion, get out of the low end tool review biz. If I see another Under $1000 Bandsaw review I'm going to puke. Put the reviews out in a guide, but stop cluttering up FWW for it. We "this forum" have been asked the what chicom 6" jointer/tablesaw/planer/bandsaw should I buy over and over, and we anwser. Maybe FWW should promote Knots and its search fumction instead, and give us more meat about woodworking.
And where are the industial tool articles we were promised? The ones on rehabbing a used machine back to glory?
Lets reinvent what woodworking mags are trying to be - again.
Right On, Brother.
Yes another voice here who is saddened by the "dumbing" down of the magazine. Agree with charlesstanford and try5077, leave the tool reviews out, enough other mags doing that, save the valuable space for real WW.
Some of us have seen the same thing happen to Fine Homebuilding (see thread in Breaktime about FHB going in the wrong direction). Larger and more glossy pictures, and articles such as "what's the difference between a metal and a plastic junction box" Give me a break. Already cancelled that mag.
I used to relish new issues of the magazine. No more unfortunately, the last one sat on a shelf unopened for a couple weeks before I picked it up and saw the brad point article. Full page picture showing a guy drilling 8000 holes. Pathetic. Total of ~15 pages dedicated to tool reviews and the latest new hi-power hardware. Again and again and again. Fine Woodworking indeed. .
But back to grizzly equipment, I bought a grinder/belt sander combo a while back. Fit and finish were so poor, thing vibrated like crazy. I won't buy this brand again, although I hear they've improved much lately. What I find most amusing and entertaining is how much emotion, pro and con, this particular brand elicits in people... More than anything else on this forum. What a gas.
I hope FWW continues to review tools. Anyone who does woodworking, fine or other, without the benefit of tools is as deluded as those who think FWW is altering the results of its reviews in order to try to win advertisers. That attitude crosses the line from cynicism to just plain rudeness.
I consume plenty of tools, bits, etc. in my shop, and having a trusted and independent reviewer is a great asset. I see the reviews FWW has been doing are starting to imitate, and perhaps even approach the types of testing the Consumers Union does. I hope that they continue to do so in every issue they publish.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Taunton can continue to review tools all they want. I love to read reviews of new and different equipment.
But...
FWW should review tools that are new, different and professional. Router lifts, 14" bandsaws, contractors saws, etc are not directly related to the context of FWW. Sell 2-4 tool guides if they want. I bet tons of people would purchase a quarterly tool mag. (Like Tools of the Trade)
I probably would not. How many 6" Jointers do people need? One every other year is excessive, just change the knives and they will last a little longer.
I don't want FWW to stop reviewing, because the reviews are well done for the most part. Be different, better, and smarter.
And send the ones who don't know what to do to KNOTS, I can tell them exactly how to spend their money
Grizzly's president wrote a letter to FWW in Issue 113 (July/August 1995). I was wrong when I thought he had written that they would not advertise again in the magazine, though that is what happened. Approximately two or three issues later another reader had a letter published that noted that Grizzly was not advertising anymore. Attached is a pdf of the letter from Grizzly. Interestingly, the second letter is from Jet, who were not too happy about their review!
Edited 10/25/2005 8:17 am ET by BenM
Ben,
Could you scan that again?
And people here think I'm defensive! Read that letter again!
I love my Grizzly G0543, same as the G0500 but it has a spiral carbide cutter head. FWW got it right.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Curious where you came across that tidbit of information about the falling out. Doesn't seem like something the general public would be privy to.
If I recall correctly, Grizzly wrote a letter to FWW stating that they would not advertise in the magazine anymore. FWW published the letter in the "Letters" column. I will check tonight in which issue this occurred.
thanks for your reply. i agree with you on the older machines being a lot better built. i have tried to buy an older machine for a couple of years but have not be successful. i think i will go ahead and buy a new one. i do not rely on magazine tool reviews very much but might be a very small factor in choosing a tool. i didnt mean to open up a grizzly bashing contest when i posted the original question. i only wanted to know if anyone has the grizzly G0586 and if so, what kind of problems, if any, they have had. so far there have only been 3 posted that had this machine or had purchased this machine and 2 out of 3 had negative experiences. thats not very good in my opinion, so will probably buy something else.
Hi JM,
Give the post some time to get feedback (weekend at least) I don't have the built-in distrust some of the others here have posted toward the editors/reviewers. The magazines testing procedures appears objective and I personally appreciate that they do it as I don't have the time or resources to do it myself. I have learned that nothing is perfect and there is always room for improvement. Even a new Lie-neilsen plane needs a good fettling right out of the box. If you want a flat board (you need to decide how flat is good enough for your work, of course) and can get it done for $650 instead of $1500 investment, I think it is obvious choice. If FWW is lying for some reason (I think they are not) and grizzly machines can't get you a flat board....then FWW is setting themselves up to lose readers. I personally, have found their articles (written by their editors very often) to help me improve my skills and make better choices in tools and techniques. Learning on the shoulders of those who have gone before me is a wise choice since I have not had the opportunity to apprentice and am only a hobbyist. I think they have a good track record. I hope more than just "squeaky wheels" chime in on this one.
On tool reviews, I trust the Fine Woodworking staff more than any other magazine. With this magazine, there is a sense of classic thoroughness. The audience for Fine Woodworking consists of intelligent readers/woodworkers who expect real articles and information from one woodworker to another. There is also a transparancy in Fine Woodworking between the editorial staff and the readers. That's why I trust their tool reviews.
I want to comment of Grizzley customer service.
I ordered a G0500 8" jointer in December 2004. When it arrived the box was damaged. I noted the damage on the shipping receipt according to the directions that Grizzly gives you when you order and when they confirm the item shipped.
I unpacked the jointer about two weeks later. There was a crack in the cast iron base. I emailed Grizzly immediately about the damage. I expected them to ship a new part and was concerned about how to take the tables apart.
Grizzly immediately authorized a return of the jointer at their expense. They assured me that upon receipt of the jointer a new one would be automatically shipped. No inspection. No hassle.
Unfortunately, I was unable to return the jointer immediately. Two months after they authorized the return Grizzly contacted me. They wanted to remind me that I had a new Jointer reserved and waiting to be shipped.
I contacted them this morning to obtain a new shipping authorization as I had not yet returned the Jointer. This afternoon I received a reply email with an authorization number for return shipping at Grizzly's expense. It also included an apology for my inconveniece.
I did not demand. I did not threaten. I merely asked if it was still possible. Grizzly's response was immediate. SEND IT BACK!! That is customer service. I do not know of any other company that would have said send it back 10 month's after it was delivered and apologize at the same time.
Any tool or for that matter any product can arrive with a defect. That really is an unfair measure of a company's quality. The true measure is how they stand behind the product.
I reccomend Grizzly because of their customer service. I cannot believe that my experience was a fluke. Grizzly has decided to stand behind their products.
By the way, Grizzly claims that the price differential is not because the tool is of poorer quality but is the result of their selling direct to the public. You are not paying for all the middle man profits which are significant. Most retailers mark their products up by 100 per cent of more. Amazon.com was selling their Delta 8" jointer for $1344.00 they just reduced the price to $999.99. If you double the price of Grizzly's G0586 the price would be $1350.00. The retailer mark up.
Buy the Grizzly. Use the savings to buy wood to use the jointer on!
Barrister,
Well, you obviously had a good experience with Grizzly. It's interesting that you let the machine sit in your shop for two months and still were able to get a replacement.Your experience and my experience with Grizzly are like night and day!I don't know how to explain this. But there it is for people to see and compare and make their decisions.
Edited 10/24/2005 11:28 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Matthew
I did not let the jointer sit for two months. It arrived January 2005 and they are picking it up this month October 2005 thats 10 months. The reason for the delay was that I had been ill.
Edited 10/25/2005 2:09 pm ET by Barrister
Barrister,
Sorry, when you said you were unable to return it for two months, I thought you meant from your end! I see what happened now.
Matthew it was from my end. The entire 10 months were from my end.
<<I don't know how to explain this.>>
Barrister didn't give his machine away.
robert,
Now I know you're joking!But just in case you're actually serious...I gave the drill press away after a year of problems and attempts to solve them. Barrister's entire problem period with Grizzly was 10 months, or about equal to mine. But he had a different outcome. Hence my statement that I can't explain the difference in customer service.Unless you're saying that Grizzly also manufactures crystal balls and knew I would give it away?
Hi all. I have been reading Knots for about a month now and cannot believe that my first post is on this topic...Anyway, I think the obvious difference in the way Matthew was treated versus some of the others that had better outcomes with damaged Grizzly machines is that the ones that got the great service had obvious SHIPPING damage. IIRC Matthew had not external shipping damage and it was definitely Grizzly's fault/problem. With external shipping damage obvious the shipping insurance/shipping company ends up picking up much of the tab.Matthew thanks for your posts about Grizzly - I think you have been very fair toward them and the other posters inspite of the personal attacks directed toward you. I think their shipping policy is atrocious and I would not have taken it as literally as written without your posting of your experience with them.
<<But he had a different outcome. Hence my statement that I can't explain the difference in customer service.>>
Could it be related to the fact that Barrister still had a machine to send back and you did not?
Robert1,Or more likely it is due to the nature of space and time, which strictly dictates that if two drill presses are used in two different shops, by two different woodworkers, and analogous problems arise in both simultaneously, but system A becomes engaged in mechanical upgrading or general overhaul and replacement, while system B remains in stasis, then system A will cause greater levels of anger-producing compounds that, built up over time, will be visible even by those not directly in the physical presence of the user and may even cause confusion, dismay, and secondary anger among those who observe the response of said anger-producing compounds on the original subject, to the point where rational discussion becomes difficult or even physically impossible, and as the energy (E) increases, along with the mass (M) of the debate, the levels of anger-producing compounds become so great that all parties involved in the debate begin to reach the universal constant (C), at which time it becomes difficult to decipher where the beginning and end actually exist.
Edited 10/26/2005 3:48 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
It's easy to see why your drill press problem went unresolved. I would suggest an introductory course in elementary human communication at a local college or readjustment of your medication, whichever would be cheaper.
I agree, I have been reading the drill press garbage for too long. Learn to communicate with your vendor. Or by local so you can deal with people in person.(I hope you do better face to face.)Anyway please move on, My 1 x 42 sander grinder was a real POS. But I don't write about it every time someone asks about Grizzly.
Grizzly, like Sears and HD rely on price point shoppers. Drill presses, belive it or not were once high pecision tools. A good US made floor drill press cost $800-$1000 for a good machine 5-10 years ago. Wonder why? It's not some pieces of pipe and a table with a motor on it.
Grizzly is in business because 75% or more people are satisfied for what they purchased at the particular price point. I have been disappointed and pleased, but I feel that I got a solid VALUE for my tool dollars.
And where is your evidence that I did not communicate with the vendor?By the way, I have never had this sort of problem before, and I have been dealing with vendors a lot for many years. So let's stop making this out to be a problem with how I deal with vendors!If you are going to criticize, follow the discussion.
Edited 10/27/2005 8:11 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Robert,
Again, I was being humorous because your last couple of posts seemed like you were pulling my leg. If you were actually being serious in your last couple of posts, then I guess I misinterpreted them.In any case, I was just kidding around and playing with the absurdity of the whole game we're playing here -- both sides.But I'm glad you got another chance to hurl some more nasty personal jabs. You wrote this: "I would suggest an introductory course in elementary human communication at a local college or readjustment of your medication, whichever would be cheaper."It's amazing how rude and obnoxious some people get.
Edited 10/26/2005 10:54 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Ahhh Soooo!!! One person's witticism is another person's affront. Just like one person see's machine as junk, while to another, it is fine instrument. Ah SOOOO!! But to Robert1, he has happy machines!! All run well!!! Buy Grizzly and be happy!!! Drink much tea and live long time!!! Joi gin, y'all.
Sounds good to me!
Sorry Matt
It was meant in jest. No heat intended.
My apologies to all.
thanks for the reply. its good to hear about positive customer service from grizzly. that is certainly a plus for my decision. however, my main concern is about the model G0586 jointer. i don't know how it compares to the model G0500 in quality. i was told by grizzly that is was the same except the color, switch location and hand wheel controlled fence, however it is manufactured in china and the 0500 in taiwan. i have never been a fan of anything made in china. even though grizzly assured me that it had the same quality control as the 0500. i guess basically what i wanted to hear from others who own this machine is if it is a good machine or a piece of junk.
Barrister,
My experience with Grizzly....
I went to one of their "Scratch and Dent" sales several years ago with my head set on a tablesaw. If you have ever been to one of these sales, it is a hectic dash for the machines when the sale opens, I quickly ran up, read the ticket on a 10" 5hp cabinet saw that said dented cabinet for $450. I found the dent and ripped the ticket to buy the machine.
A couple of hours later, as the forklift was loading up it up I noticed it had NO MOTOR. No wonder it was so cheap. I showed the guy loading it up and he quickly acknowledged their mistake and went out to the yard and took a motor out of another machine no questions asked.
When I got it home, as I was installing the motor, it didn't fit so I called customer service. The help I got was extremely pleasant and knowledgible, and it turned out I had a motor for a 12" saw, not 10". Even though the scratch and dent sale items are clearly stated "as is - no returns", Grizzly said they would take care of the problem.
I packed up the motor to ship, meanwhile, a new motor showed up the next day! I went ahead and shipped the old motor back, with a receipt inside for the shipping cost.
A few days or a week later I thought about calling to see if they would pay for the shipping back of the motor, but before I called there was a check in the mail for the full shipping amount.
I know this is not the best saw money can buy, but it has been a GREAT saw for me. And the point of this post: I WOULD recommend Grizzly based on their customer service.
Cal
Just a comment: cracks in cast iron are absolutely non tolerable-the kiss of death to any machinery maker-even to Grizzly (some would hasten to add).Philip Marcou
Realizing I'm running the risk of resurrecting this post (which is not my intention), I hope to give all those concerned in posting their comments on this topic that over at Sawmill Creek Website this same article concerning FWW review (on 8" joiners) came up in one of their forums, like this one did. It as well garnered a lot attention and the original poster on that forum he....well it would be best for you to read and come to your own conclusions of his Post.
Anyway, I mainly wanted to give you on a heads up at their forum Grizzly's very own President wrote a lenghty post to that thread concerning this particular review on 8" joiners. It's well worth reading.
Their website is sawmillcreek.org. Category on the forum is General Woodworking and Power Tools, the Post subject is titled "FWW Done it Now! Just read the grizz review". Grizzly's President reply is #54
Cheers,
Robert
Edited 11/8/2005 1:47 pm ET by REllis
Realizing I'm running the risk of resurrecting this post (which is not my intention), I hope to give all those concerned in posting their comments on this topic that over at Sawmill Creek Website this same article concerning FWW review (on 8" joiners) came up in one of their forums, like this one did. It as well garnered a lot attention and the original poster on that forum he....well it would be best for you to read and come to your own conclusions of his Post.
Anyway, I mainly wanted to give you on a heads up at their forum Grizzly's very own President wrote a lenghty post to that thread concerning this particular review on 8" joiners. It's well worth reading.
Their website is sawmillcreek.org. Category on the forum is General Woodworking and Power Tools, the Post subject is titled "FWW Done it Now! Just read the grizz review". Grizzly's President reply is #54
Cheers,
Robert
Dev Emch, the guy who initiated that thread on SMC used to post here and he knows machinery. He buys and restores old Olivers and other great stuff.
He is missed on this forum.
Here is Dev's original post from SMC:
Well kiddies, guess what? Its a combo of being to darn busy and to darn lazy to renew my FWW subscription. So I just wait until safeway has it in the check out mag racks and I snag it when it time to scarf grocerys.I just went through the 8 inch jointer review and my skin is itching something bad. Here are my issues with this review.1). No grading scale was listed so we have no concrete grades to examine. The process of evaluation was extremely poor and is totally devoid of any true obejective, repeatable process. A number of examinination points were brought up but somehow, the author managed to wiggle the grizz machine into the lead spot.He did mention the fact that the DJ-20 had an "anti-splintering" feature. This is how he referred to the parallogram system. A total of no more than 4 sentences. The major advangages were not even covered or hinted at.2). He then listed the flatness and parallel numbers for each jointer. In his technique, he said that he had used a "high quality" 36 inch straight edge and feeler gage. Nothing more was said. I would like to know a few things. First of all, what was the straight edge he was using? Was it a hunk of hot rolled steel or a real straight edge from companies like Strarret or Brown & Sharpe. Second, how did he measure flatness? This is not just one measurement. And the number listed were "averages". Averages of what? No other methods or follow up data was listed.Then he has the numbers listed by thousandths. Jointers like the Delta DJ-20 had 0.001 inch out of flat. And only one jointer had perfect tables.. you guessed it, the grizz with 0.000 in out of flat. ONLY ONE!His measurement was based on trying to slip a one thou feeler gage under the straight edge. This is total rubish. First of all, if you pluck a hair off your head and measure it, it is about 3 thousandths thick. Go ahead and try it! That is 0.003 in thick. Or in the case of the sunhill jointer, the amount its tables were out of flat.Most micrometers are setup to measure at best ONE THOUSANDTHS of an inch. I have a couple I ordered new from starrett that measure in 10ths of ONE thousadths of an inch. These do this by using a special 10ths vernier scale. ONE TENTH is 0.0001 inches thick. Most metal lathes could not hold this tolererance if their lives depended on it. Folks, this is aerospace territory!But our author must be using some special tools he did not tell us about. In the case of table alignment, there are no less than FOUR jointers in which he was able to accurately measure the table alignment to 10ths. Not thousanths of an inch but 10ths of ONE thousandths of an inch. And all this with nothing more than a non descript straight edge and a bunch of feeler gages.This is pure rubish. BUNK. Fairy Tales. Holloween Stories. Campfire Legends.Can you measure a surface to this level of accuracy? Of course you can. The hard core machine builders to this all the time. But they are equipped to do it. They often use a device called an AUTO-COLLIMATOR. The early ones and some of the finest ones made are by companies like NIKON and LEIKA and LEITZ. They use prisims and other optic tricks to measure how a reflected beam of light is moved on its receipt to the instrument. The light bounces off special optic devices made for this purpose. Look in the back of the starrett catalog and check out those funky optic glass thingies. Things like "TRUE SQUARES" and "OPTICAL POLYGONS" and "OPTICAL FLATS". This is how you measure parallellism to 10ths of an inch.And of course, the grizz came out with a totally perfect 10 out of 10 score. A guy who is measureing 4 of the 11 jointers to within 10ths must be able to measure the grizz to within 10ths as well. That would be 0.0000 inchs. Or could that be +/- 0.00005 inches. So that would be accuracy in which the variation is now on the order of 100ths of 1 thousandths of an inch.So Mr. Duckworth, unless your nickname is warlock, there is no way you could have produced accurate test results and I can only conclude that you entered this competition with the intent of promoting the grizzley jointer. Your coverage of the other jointers was rather poor and your scientific method was basicly non existant. Had this been an engineering lab report, I would have docked you about 3 letter grades.Better try next time..... I guess its a buyer beware market out there.
__________________Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.
Edited 11/9/2005 3:46 pm ET by BossCrunk
Edited 11/9/2005 5:01 pm ET by BossCrunk
Ummmm.... very interesting.
But then, these machines are intended to joint boards, and not to measure Doppler red shifts in the crab nebula.
I am less critical of the author's methodology. I believe he used a Starrett edge, and saw no daylight in several directions. This would imply that either the edge was true and the table flat, or that both were coincidentally distorted in the same direction in several diffrent planes. Seems...unlikely...
I suspect that any of the machines judged acceptable in the review would do a good job jointing.
Which is, after all, what they tend to be used for.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You have to know Dev. He does go overboard at times but is an absolute wealth of information when the crap gets deep regarding machinery.
Dev is as likely to be convinced by some bloke with a set of feeler gauges and a straightedge as I am to convince you I'm Napoleon Bonaparte reincarnated.
Ownership of a machinist tools does not a machinist make.
One has to read FW these days with a truckload of salt at one's side. The mag. is at its worst when reviewing equipment. Practically the only thing worse are the anecdotal reviews on Knots which are more defence of purchasing decision than real review.
Edited 11/10/2005 6:26 am ET by BossCrunk
I just got one, G0586, last week and I have been real happy with it. Must admit I was a little nervous with all the bad and good (confusing) tallk on this site about Grizzly but i took the chance and it seems to have worked out. For $700 not to bad. It seems obvious if you order a tool from any of these companies thru the mail you never know what your getting. I agree also that these are only decent machines by comparison to the heavy duty industrial stuff but that's another deal being quite a bit more expensive. Anyway good luck.
thanks for the reply. i am glad to hear you are pleased with the 0586. i plan to head to springfield next week to look at the machine and hopefully bring one back with me.
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