ok. So how many of you actually use your guard on your table saw? Yeah i know there there to help keep us safe. but i like the idea of being able to see the blade. and i realize there there because the mfgs dont want to get sued because someone slipped and zipped off a finger. i have seen a few that are made to remove and install easily but in the course of a days woodworking, i would have to spend an hour bolting it on then off then on then off then on then off, blah balh blah. i kind of go by the rule, i use potentially dangerous machines for a living so i give them a lot of respect, take my time, use push sticks, wear saftey protection.
i have seen a few after market ones that look really good, but havent been able to bring myself to purchase a 1000 dollar accessory for a 1000 dollar saw that has no production use. do youz guyz think there worth it?
same with anti kick back devices. i have seen them on many machines, never seen them in use. not even in school.
basically im just curious, and i dont need a lecture on how i wish i had bought one after i have lost a finger. i learned wood working from my father who lost the end of a finger on a dado blade because he wasnt paying attention. (ok that might not be a good person to learn from)
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
Now when i nod my head, you hit it.
Replies
tmaxxx,
Well, I'm one of those people who put off even owning a table saw out of respect for its potential harm. Some might say that I was too worried, but in the end I like the fact that I found other ways to achieve what a table saw does, until one day, after I gained a lot of woodworking experience and knowledge, I went out and got a table saw. I think for too many woodworkers, the table saw is the first thing they run out and get, without experience or knowledge.
Now that I do own a table saw, I continue to realize that an accident occurs too quickly to rely on my reaction time to protect me, so I want to rely on safety equipment. For me, that means using the equipment that came with the saw. This may change, but for now I haven't bought any after-market safety devices. I would rather accept the limitations and frustrations of the safety devices, and yet know I am safe, than save time and know that I am at risk. I always use the guard/splitter that came with my saw. I even use the anti-kickback pawls.
Of course, I am a serious hobbiest who supplements his income with some professional woodworking. I assume the reasoning may be different for those who make their full living woodworking. But that doesn't change the dangers.
Edited 3/22/2005 11:57 am ET by Matthew Schenker
All my tools have the factor guards on the machines with exception of the table saw. Guard has been safely stored in the box in which it came. I do how ever use a after market splitter for a small degree of safety. The rest as you say is done with knowledge of what they can do to you.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Different mfrs provide different forms of "tection". Even on different forms of the "same" saw.
I have two table saws.
My REAL saw is the new Craftsman 22124 (the big one with the Biesemeyer fence). This saw comes with one of the finest blade guard/spreader/anti-kick back pawl systems I've seen in a l-o-n-g time. It's so easy to take off and put back on that it's downright ridiculous to NOT use!
The other "saw" is a Ryobi BT-3100. That blade guard is so-o-o poorly designed that I completely dis-assembled it so that I could save the splitter and be totally divorced from the overly-sharp finger-cutting pawls & awesomely clumsy-to-remove blade guard!
The Ryobi commited "sawicide" when the really cheap-arsed plastic blade raising/bevel-setting control knob bit the dust. That "thing" now fills space on a storage shelf in an out-of-the-way [and safe] place. Wouldn't you know it? Dadburned piece of cheap mis-guided chunk of noisy aluminum died just as the warranty expired.
-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Yeah, I have the next one down (22122?), and mounting/unmounting the fence takes all of 5 seconds. (Guard stays on whenever possible, more for the kickback protection than anything else.)The thing that really bugs me, though, is that they didn't put a proper riving knife on it, like European saws.
You can part your saw out on BT3Central in their classifieds forum.
http://www.bt3central.com
I'd be happy to buy your fence from you for a fair price.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Ryobi BT-3100.. I had one some time ago... I gave it away.. Still worked OK..
But I just used it to side my house.. LOTS and LOTS of lumber.. I kind of liked that saw for some reason.. But.. Just Cedar and Oak..
no no guard on my saw but does that make it right NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i don't have one for my uni saw refurbished it my self but when i get ready to cut you can bet that all my attention is focus on the blade and where my digets are.
Thomas B. Palumbo
CUSTOM WOODWORKING
When I bought my Jet contractor's saw, I told myself that I was going to use the blade guard. Problem is, the saw is more dangerous to operate with the cheap blade guard than without it. I pulled it off after a week or so and have since determined not to rely on passive safety devices. I practice a safe routine when woodworking and, since it is just a hobby, I can afford to quit when I get tired.
Dick Durbin
Tallahassee
ALOT of the accidents caused by jointers and t.s. are kick-back related. The wood spears you at high speed / crushes your hand / or embeds into the drywall and/or your hand goes down/forward and gets aquainted with the blade.
Kickback is prevented by a splitter/anti kickback prawls, proper holddowns / featherboards. Hand to blade is prevented by a cover/pushsticks.
If you have a way around that I'd like to know. My cover is a pain in the #### (shop make). Otherwise I'll have to deal with it. At $1000 / finger I'd buy 10 if I had none, so that kind of cash to save them sounds pretty cheap (but I know exactly where you are coming from, $1000 bucks buys alot more fun stuff then a splitter).
There has to be cheaper ways to deal with this. Anyone use and like the Gripper?
Andy
P.S. Check out the accident section of woodweb, it will make you feel sick to your stomach but gives you a good idea of how a machine can hurt you.
No guard, but not by choice. Always a splitter unless its just impossible. Most factory guards are crap and, like others have said, such a pain to remove that you just don't mess with them. I made zero clearance plates one with a splitter and one with out and just exchange as needed. So it stays 90% of the time.
I'll improve on that some day with one that has a guard over the blade along with the splitter but that gets pretty low on the list in reality.
I've used the Biesemeyer in a pro shop and think it is great. Only had to move it for rips under 1/2" and it had a dust fitting. Which REALLY encourages you to use it. Unless you just like having dust spray around. Problem with it is the expense.
Biggest benefit for guards are for pro's in my opinion. Worst accidents I've seen were with guys that knew their s**t and just had a bad day. Tired or were having other problems that took their concentration. Guards are the last defense when you space out for a second.
Hobbyists are usually really into it so they focus. As long as they have been trained with good technique they are OK.
Different when its something you have to get done and you're into your 70th hour that week. Have to know when enough is enough. A project might be late, but how much would an amputation set one back?
I guess that is a scheduling and estimation issue too, a little off-topic.
But in writing this response I've just talked myself into making the thoatplate/splitter with the guard. One hours time versus that last line of defense is way worth it now that I think about it.
Blade guard (Penn State Ind. overarm type) stays on 100% of the time and also vastly improves dust collection. Splitter (Microjig) is used for everything except bevel and dado cuts. Total investment about $200.
Great thread.
I have a r/t unisaw.If I'm ripping large stock or cutting sheet goods I use the stock cover assembly.For ripping smaller pieces I'll use the Micro Jig splitter or a pair of Grippers(fantastic little tools)with a z/c insert.Usually for crosscuts I don't use any guards,but my attention is 100% on the cut,and again a z/c insert.I also never have the blade more than 1/4 inch above the cut.
Brent
Since I am an orthopedic surgeon resident, I have seen my share of woodworker injures. Because of this inside experience, and the fear I couldn't do my job (or pay off my outstanding school loans...) if I lost a finger, it has made me a fanatic on use of safety equipment. Usually fingers lost due to circular saws are so badly damaged that replantation is usually not an option.
On my table saw, I use a beismeier splitter that had to be grinded down to allow the use of a thin kerf blade. It is always on unless the cut doesn't allow it. It takes less than 5 secs to take on or off. I can't tell you enough the number of times this thing has saved me hardache. I would easily have paid twice as much for this. I also use the Delta over the blade guard. It acts more of a reminder more than anything not to get my fingers too close to the blade. Helpful tool, easily moved out of the way, also allows place to hold splitter, powerswitch, arbor wrench, push sticks etc. Then when all else fails, I use the grabber tool (as previously mentioned) as a way to keep fingers away. Also have assortment of push sticks that are within reaching distance. You can have the worlds best tool, but if it isn't nearby you aren't going to use it. Hope this helps,
Dave
I use it for ripping, but usually not for crosscutting.
I bought the PSI overhead dust collector/guard last summer. Had been using my Jet saw for several months without a guard, due to the fact that I'd retrofit it with a Merlin snap-in splitter. Found that I was using the saw less and less 'cause I felt I was tempting fate every time I used it. The PSI unit runs about $175, which is pretty reasonable for an overhead guard. [Haven't read the rest of the posts; hope I'm not repeating something already said] there are plans "out there" for DIY guards. Here's a link to one of them.
Using the overhead guard isn't without it's aggravations -- has to be removed for some purposes and worked around when using push-sticks, but I'm definitely glad to have it there.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
i learned wood working from my father who lost the end of a finger on a dado blade because he wasnt paying attention.
IMHO, that's one of the mythes associated with TS "accidents" - they only happen due to operator negligence, and guards are unnecessary if you tell yourself you'll always be "careful". The reality is, the real world isn't always predictable: cutting a pice of case-hardened stock will one day pinch the blade, some loud noise will startle you one day ('cut up a hand with a hand tool once due to that), etc. And with a TS, things happen too fast to react to them.
So no, I don't believe being careful obviates the need for a guard, anymore than a commitment to defensive driving means you can dispense with seat belts.
I was in a similar situation to forestgirl. 'got a Unisaw, which comes with a guard sufficient to protect the operator; but took it off the first time to cut a dado, and it never went back on. But every time I used the TS, I felt I was tempting fate. So I got the snap-in Delta splitter, which takes a few seconds to re-install after dadoing, and the PSI overarm guard. And I still try to be "careful".
Wax On or Wax Off?
tmaxxx,
I made a decision to use a table saw for certain functions, and to do a lot of the unsafe practices in another way.
I believe tools should be used the way they were meant to be used. Of course, we should be creative -- that's the idea of woodworking. But you have to know when your creativity is dangerous and find a better way to do it, when you are venturing too far from the tool's original purpose. For example, I will not cut coves on the table saw (I use a router), or tapers (I use a band saw), or rabbets (I use a router table). I will not resaw wood on a table saw (I use a band saw). I will not cut reaction wood on the table saw -- why would anyone do this? And I will not cut thin strips on the table saw.
For me, the table saw is dedicated to those times when I need to rip several pieces of wood the same width. This is what the table saw is supposed to be for. Of course, I could still have a tragedy doing this one thing, but it greatly reduces the risk.
Edited 3/23/2005 7:40 am ET by Matthew Schenker
I make a lot of cuts on the table saw that I could do on say the miter saw or the bandsaw because of nicely made cuts that I can achieve from the TS. For example, cutting small pieces of trim on the miter saw is dangorous because of it getting jammed in the fence and the blade, so I use a TS for this particular operation. The bandsaw can do curves very well, but straight cuts for precision are better achieved on the TS, simply because I am lacking a fence for the bandsaw. Now, I know that the table saw is more hazerdous than either one, but the blade I have on it does the best job on any machine, and I dont have the gaurd or splitter on because I it such a nuisance, so I have to be the most careful I can be at all times.
B Near
I just bought a new TS and the guard is not on. Last night I was ripping some boards and noticed one of them starting to close up on the far end. I then had the image of being run through by a 24"x2"x3/4" piece of poplar and decided that that would make a pretty rediculous obituary, so the guard goes on as soon as I get home from work.
-Art K.
The big danger with a TS is, of course, getting your fingers tangled up with the blade -- a problem that can be eliminated with a push stick. One of the keys here is to make up a variety of pushsticks for various situations, and devise a storage system where they are easy to grab as you are making a cut.
I keep mine on a rack attached to the ceiling, and suspended just above the saw. That way, if I start a cutting operation with one push stick, and want to switch to another for some reason, it is within easy reach.
The other problem is kickback. There are any number of ways to rig a splitter just behind the blade, which will eliminate (or at least seriously lower the potential for) kickback. It is also amazing to me that so many folks position themselves directly behind the saw blade. If you stand to one side or the other, you won't be in the the path of a piece that does kickback.
My main problem with the guards is that they too often get in the way when using a push stick. I never, ever make a rip cut without a push stick (even on rips of 8-12"), so for me, the guard is actually a hindrance to good safety practice.
Which piece, in your opinion, is more likely to kick back. The piece against the fence or the cut-off?Just curious,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
That's easy Mark. The piece trapped between the fence and the blade is most likely to kick back, especially if such things occur as the kerf opening powerfully after the cut and the US style long rip fence is being used-- the piece being dimensioned is forced tight against the all important upcutting rear teeth, which is probably where 95%+ of all kickbacks come from. The offcut can usually fall away harmlessly.
The European style of short rip fence is a great boon in reducing the chances of kickback occurring specifically when ripping. Slainte.RJFurniture
nikkiwood,
You wrote: "It is also amazing to me that so many folks position themselves directly behind the saw blade. If you stand to one side or the other, you won't be in the the path of a piece that does kickback."I've even seen pictures in magazines and books where the sawyer is standing directly behind the wood.But this gets me wondering how far off to the side you actually need to stand to be clear of a flying piece of wood? For example, the other day, I was ripping 10"-wide pieces of poplar on the table saw, each piece about 84" long. I did not have any kickbacks. But if one of those did fly, wouldn't it spin or turn a bit as it came over the top of the blade? I stand with the main part of my body about seven or eight inches to the LEFT of the saw blade, but if one of those pieces came backwards, wouldn't I get hit somewhere? Maybe if I stood off two or three feet, I'd be all clear, but one can't possibly do that and still reach the wood to push it through the cut. So aren't we forced at least stand in the fringes of the danger zone? Just so no one misunderstands me, I'm not suggesting that you DON'T stand off to the side. I'm just wondering how far off you have to stand to realistically be out of the way, and whether it is practical to do this?Believe me, I'm more ASKING than STATING anything here.
Well, my arms reach down to my knees -- so I usually don't have a problem standing to the side...................Let me see if I can articulate what has become instinctual. I will try to do so by giving you a few scenarios.But first, Sgian/Richard is right that the full length fences on most American saws are a recipe for kickback disaster. I made up a shorter, bolt-on fence that I use whenever I know that a piece of stock has serious kickback potential.Second, if a particular stock looks like it might lift as it goes through the blade (so it could catch the teeth on the back side of the blade), I have another bolt-on affair with a substantial feather board, that will keep the piece flat on the saw table as it passes the blade. This is particularly useful if you are doing a rip-style operation with a dado blade, which has a truly vicious potential for kickback. All of my push sticks are designed so that I can exert downward pressure on the board as I am pushing the board through. Any rip that is about 5" or wider, I have a pad type board with a cleat that I use instead. In your particular example, you did not say how wide your rips are, but if you are concerned about the board lifting and catching the back teeth of the blade, then you probably want to use a pad type pusher, or a gismo you can attach to your fence with a feather board that exerts downward pressure. As far as stance is concerned, I turn my body slightly -- so I am not facing the saw directly. That way, if a board does per chance kick back, it would hit me with a glancing blow, instead of head on. I am right handed, so I push with my right hand, and stand just barely to the left of the blade. I don't worry much about kickbacks when ripping wider pieces (say beyond 8" or so), and then I may move move to the right, but I still keep my body slightly askew to the saw. The main thing is to be sure that you have some safe means of holding the board flat to the table. Maybe 20 years ago, FWW did an article on wwing accidents, and the observation that stayed with me was that most accidents happen to people that have been doing the work for 10 years or more. Typically, they're in a hurry, and they don't want to take the time to rig a feather board on the fence, or stop the saw to grab that push stick sitting over on the bench. You know the syndrome: " I only have this one cut to do.........."The other thing I remember from this article was that there are way more injuries from hand chisels and ulitity knives than machines. Now that I am beyond the 25 year mark, I think about that every time I am about to turn a machine on. And I never let myself get so hurried that I won't take the time to do it safely. It's a kind of discipline. But I also try to make safe practice easy and convenient. I have, for instance, safety glasses spread all round the shop ( and a pair always on the TS), so I never have to move more than a step or two to get a pair of glasses.In the end I think perhaps the best safety advice I ever got was from a sports psychologist. He worked primarily with gymnasts to help them "visualize" their entire routine (in a few seconds) just before they started. I adapted those same techinques to woodworking operations, and I now do it automatically in about 2-3 seconds. If in that time frame, I decide I am not completely comfortable with the operation at hand, I will stop and figure out what I have to do to get to that comfort point.In sum I would say safety is about 20% technique, and 80% state of mind.
20 or more years in....I have four saws in my school shop, all with blade guards on....two Biesemeyers and one Excalibur on 10 and 14" saws, and the equipment on a Euro slider. There are many things about the Biesemeyers I don't like, but my rule is they all stay on unless you cannot do the operation without them, and then you take every other possible precaution. I don't have an aftermarket guard on my saw at home, because I'm really not using it right now, but after many years of not using them for all the usual reasons, I believe I've simply been lucky and not very smart to do without. I do bleieve the factory supplied gear is mostly junk.
For the record, I have done the first aid on a student who seriously damaged a hand on a saw, and cleaned up the blood afterwards....he was not doing what he was trained to do, but it still caused me to rethink the issue of guards, and now when I work on a saw without a guard in place....if I absolutely have to....it confirms that I am firmly in the 'buy and use a decent guard' school.
Still disagree respectfully with Richard and others on the short fence for ripping issue though, and we've been through this many times; did it today coincidentally, and I beleieve I am safer and get a much better result with a long fence.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Someone said they stand 8"s to the left of the blade. Is this the proper spot? I usually stand a few inches to the right, thinking that a board is not as likely to shoot right since the rip fence is there. So the question is, WHERE SHOULD I STAND??
-Art K.
Depends whether you are a lefty or not. You should stand opposite the fence. But I think almost all rip with the fence to the right of the blade so you should bias yourself to the left.If you are on the fence side the tendency will be to push away from the fence as you try to control your stock. This is easier to show than explain. There are a lot of other little things that help with table saw technique that I don't even think about anymore. Always have to stop and try to explain stuff about hand position, hooking a couple of finers on the fence, tucking your thumb etc when I have had to train someone in the shop.Helps to drop the blade and go through the new position a few times to get the feel with the power off.Maybe you should check out Taunton's Table Saw video. Our local library has it, maybe yours does.Be safe.
Good reminder regarding the short fence. I've thought about making one off and on (usually off). With the reminder, guess what my project for today will be? This is one reason why I'm particularily partial to the Unifence. I don't know about anybody else, but I've had softwood 2X4's turn into some very weird shapes when ripped in half.
Far as I know, the Unifence is the only one available with this feature. Have you seen any others?
One of the new Craftsman table saws has something similar. If I remember right, it has a sliding face attaced to the fence rather than the entire fence sliding.
You're absolutely correct about safety being 80%+ state of mind.
1: Are you there (mentally)?
2: Are you aware of your surroundings?
3: Are you working safely?
Time and again you read about people who have had accidents who lament about losing body parts, the use of body parts or loss of feeling. Every one of them wishes they had done things differently. Doesn't that tell you something? Don't forget, folks, this isn't a game. You can pay dearly for one mistake for the rest of your life!
Over the years, I've heard every excuse possible for the removal of safety equipment. Believe me, there are very few excuses that haven't passed between my lips. Luckily, I learned before doing severe damage to myself or my co-workers. I also know for a fact that this was due to good fortune rather than good management. In short, I was extremely lucky.
I don't know about anybody else but I don't work alone in my shop all the time. I don't have that much of a controlled environment. I have family and friends into woodworking and sometimes we work together. How would you feel if, due to your negligence, the result of your shortcut resulted in injury to them instead of you?
I've said it time and again: Nothing gives me more pleasure than holding a child's hand. I'll keep the fingers on my hands for that, thanks.
I use Penn State's over arm guard. I also use the microgig splitter. Many a year ago, I was doing some ripping late one evening and to speed production, I removed the safety equipment. I made Three stupid mistakes. First working tired and second working in a hurry. It was an order for some silkscreening frames. Third mistake was removing the safety equipment I had a nasty kickback that caught me in the chest broadside (thankfully not like a spear). After realizing I was not seriously injured, I had a heart to heart talk with myself and swore I would not make that mistake again. To this day, safety is first. I've got time to work with safety equipment. Just my 2C worth.
well i thank you all for your input. i think one of those quick release splitters will be a definate purchase . im going to look at one of those funky blade guards. i have seen one from excalibur that looks good.
i have also been recently looking at getting a vertical panel saw. this would take a huge load off the table saw. i often find the unsafeish situations come when its hard to perform task on the ts. for instance, crosscutting something thats wider than the distance from the blade to the front edge of the saw. the mitre guage always hits a speed bump at the edge. so im also considering a sliding table. anyone have any suggestions on those items? like most, i dont mind paying an extra few bucks for a good quality item.
thanksTmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
Now when i nod my head, you hit it.
Took mine off the moment i bought the saw. To my way of thinking when you feel safe and protected , thats when you make a mistake. I dont even turn my table saw on until I am alone and I have nothing else on my mind but making those cuts I need to make. A table saw is a bad place to have a brain fart
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I'm going to repeat stories I may have posted in response to other topics. Apologies if this is bad discussion etiquette.I've been fortunate enough to have worked in a few shops with some very experienced people. The most valuable was a higher end furniture shop in Oregon where I worked with about fifteen other builders.Safety was a big deal there and we would get written up if we were caught using a tablesaw without a guard (if it could have been used). They used the Bessey overhead type on PM 66's.There were a few accidents in the three years I worked there. Some were just scrapes, one amputation. They were always discussed at the monthly meetings, even the close calls.The amputation happened to the most experienced builder there, he had been building for thirty years and was having problems in his marriage and did something he normally wouldn't have, once. His head wasn't in it. But he had defeated the guard, too, and lost his thumb.The second worst happened to a relative newbie, probably a year in the shop. Was ripping some narrow strips using a power feeder and a 4" splinter kicked out and went through his palm and into his wrist. This was just dumb luck, he did nothing wrong.I've only been seriously woodworking for ten years, seven years full time. And I am convinced that it is a dangerous occupation. But it doesn't mean that you are absolutely going to have an accident. However the more hours you spend working with equipment that has the potential to maim and you defeat the safety guards; then I think its just a matter of time. I've had my share of close calls and a couple of kicks, none that have put me down. I've had a broken router bit (from another builder) bounce off my safety glasses while I was sanding. Working in a woodshop is more dangerous than in a call center, less dangerous than working as a longshoreman. I can't convince anyone that how they work is wrong. Woodworkers really love being told how to use their tools ;). But I personally try to take every step to make an operation as safe as I can. I rely on my hands to provide my income and I can't risk them. Driving is only dangerous when you crash, right?
No blade gaurd, but very early on I nicked my thumb to the tune of 5 stitches, so my hands NEVER get within a foot of the blade, more like 14-16 inches usually. If I were doing it for just a hobby I would probably have it on.
I have had to deal with a lot of incidents/accidents in my time. Not in the woodworking field but I don't think it matters.
I'd be willing to bet that 95% of all accidents could have been prevented by following procedures (ie not taking shortcuts) and not circumventing the guards. The words "I've done it this way a thousand times" probably gave me more grey hair than any. I don't care if you've done it a thousand times and got away with it. I only care about the ONE time when you don't get away with it. All the BS aside regarding lawsuits, guards are there for a reason. Use them.
The industry I was in had a very bad reputation regarding safety. Accidents there tended to be crippling. What I've found, since I left the industry, is that the small outfits and privateers are at least 20 years behind, regarding safety. If I caught someone doing something like operating a tool without proper guarding in place, I would send him home, with pay, for a couple of days. After that, they would have to explain to me why they should continue to work for me. The point wasn't to penalize them, economicaly. It was to drive it into their heads that this was not acceptable practice.
Sound rough? Yup. Did it work? Yup.
Shortcuts are an accident waiting to happen. And believe me, they will happen.
It's a rant, I know. To me, thought, this is something near and dear to my heart. I've said for years the hardest job a supervisor has is protecting people from themselves.
I took off the guard that came with my Grizzly. I made a zero clearance insert with a splitter behind the blade that works well. I intend to buy an overhead guard especially since it'll help with dust collection too. I try not to use the TS at the end of the day when my alertness may not be as sharp as a chisel dropped onto concrete.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Mine didn't come with a guard. (It's a Delta Unisaw that my grandfather bought just before WWII.) I put a Biesemeyer fence on it, and I'd like to add a guard. So, what's the best choice for that combination?
-- J.S.
Sure you can see the blade when its not moving! When its spinning the edge turns translucent! I keep the guard on as its an inch wide and much easier to see than 1/8 wide translucent blade rim!
all of my stiches from the elbows down are from utility knives and chisels. it took about 30 stiches before i learned to keep my fingers behind the sharp edge. <G> i think that the best saftey device with all power tools is common sense. table saw "guards", in my opinion, are a hazard. the only saftey device i use when operating a table saw is pair of saftey glasses. if you are uncomfortable for the slightest moment there is a hazard. i rip parts of all sizes without using a push-stick. let me also state the i have never hurt my self with a power tool when it was on. (i hate changing joiner knives someone should come up with a saftey device for that process lol)
I have a Delta Unifence and the guard is a pita, and I've been through cycles where I leave it off, then relent and put it back on- It's been off for a few weeks, and then I read this thread the other night about 8:30 pm and got up and went out to the shop and put it back on and I'm going to leave it on- In all the accidents of one kind of another I've had in my lifetime, large or small, I've been the one constant, the only element common to all of them- What does that tell me? As one guy said, if the thing is a pita, at least it keeps me thinking about that blade- And I'd HATE to explain after an accident that, "naw, I didn't have the guard on, it gets in the way"- I think if I'm in too much of a hurry to put up with a guard, I'm probably in too much of a hurry to be running a saw-
Off-PM 66, ON- Delta 8" jointer, ON- on miter saw. Know your equipment and be familiar with the physics and be careful. I feel safer seeing the blade on the 66, not having it it hidden under a shroud covered with static clinging dust.
My first WW job was in a millwork shop in '71. OSHA came through and we were forced to install guards on ancient, but excellent table saws and mortisers. The new, custom built, guards looked good and well thought out, until you ran the machine for a split second. They clouded with dust, so you were working blind.
Not much has changed.
Bob
Regardless of the protection devices installed on a saw, technique is of the utmost importance. Protection guards won't help if you are doing something that the saw is not meant to do. I've read all the posts so far and no one has mentioned much in the way of procedures. There aren't many times you should be looking at the blade. When ripping, you want to watch the fence. It's when the stock starts pulling away from the fence that you get in trouble. The rear mounted guards and splitter combinations can't be used in some situations. You can't do ploughs or tenons for example. If you start ripping down the center of a wide board and the kerf starts to close up and pinch, the easiest thing to do is just lift up on your end to clear the blade. A rear mounted guard can interfere with this. Putting a crooked or bowed edge against the rip fence can lead to problems. Edges against the fence should be straight. I see guys all the time, following safety precautions but watching the blade and not the board against the fence. Slowly the board is working it's way away from the fence and it's getting a little harder to push. Bad things start to happen.
When cutting a rabbet with two intersecting cuts, the waste piece should fall to the outside of the blade, not be trapped between the fence and the blade. It will come shooting back at "your boys" if you are standing in that zone, between the fence and the piece. I've seen Norm do that, and I bought a safety tape to show in class and the guy on the tape was doing it. Another thing to watch is the waste piece being the right size to get caught between the blade and the guard. It's very unusual to get a kickback on the waste side. The piece needs to be trapped between the spinning blade and something else in order to kickback. Sometimes the guard is the something else.
One of the best things you can do to help with safety is build an outfeed table. Roller stands have to be perpendicular to the blade or they may help push the piece sideways. Once the piece is clear of the blade, the roller will keep rolling and will take your attention away from the saw and put it on the piece that is getting away. You really need to keep your concentration until the piece is completely clear of the saw. Those last six inches isn't the time to start lifting your head and not watching that fence.
If you have a sacrificial fence where you have done some edge dado cuts and there is a cut away in the fence, remove it before doing other work. Those half moon cuts are a perfect place for pieces to get hung up and cause a problem. The same goes if "someone" moved the fence into the blade while it was running and put a nick in the fence.
The miter gauges that come with most saws are nice accessories but a work piece can easily slide on the smooth metal face. Glue a piece of 220 sandpaper to them or better, attach a wood bar and glue some sandpaper to that. Always watch where you put your fingers on the gauge. Holding the handle is best. Once you have completed the crosscut, pull the piece away from the blade, don't back up with it in the same position. Watch out for those waste pieces getting caught in the guard. Never use the miter gauge and the fence together. Many books show clamping a block to the fence to use as a measuring stop. This is fine if you use a wide block but 3/4" doesn't give you much room. Better to make up an L that is 4" or 5" so you have some leeway if the board gets a little sideways. It also gives you room to move the board from under the guard so you don't have to back up after the cut.
Backing up with a table saw or portable circular saw is asking for trouble. It's not a good idea on a band saw either because you can pull the blade out of the blocks and maybe off the wheel.
Reaching around behind the blade is bad form and a good way to loose some fingers especially if the guard is off. Using your fingers or hand to clear small scrap pieces away isn't smart either.
When ripping, it's a little like shooting pool. Your left hand should not be pushing. Anchor the left to the table to hold down and in against the fence. If you push with the left and slip, it will be headed for the blade. Remember to have your push stick where you can easily pick it up. You don't want to be reaching around or under to find it. Always use a push stick for pieces that are less than four inches wide.
Always unplug the saw when changing blades, always. I mounted a receptacle box right on the side of the saw near the switch so I don't have to go somewhere or bend over to unplug it.
Mitering and many crosscuts are so much easier and more precise with sleds. These accessories can also be a problem to use with rear mounted guards.
If people died from table saw injuries the manufacturers would have been forced long ago to provide some decent workable guards. I guess a few fingers doesn't motivate them to engineer something more than the "after thought guards" that are common on less expensive saws. This is a black mark on the industries morality. The better aftermarket over arm guards are expensive but they are a fraction of the cost of a visit to the ER. Even the best guards can't prevent improper use.
Great post. Excellent points. You even got me thinking "Am I doing all the right things? When have I take 'short cuts'?"and regarding your final comment,If people died from table saw injuries the manufacturers would have been forced long ago to provide some decent workable guards. I guess a few fingers doesn't motivate them to engineer something more than the "after thought guards" have you been following the SawStop thread in ToolTalk? The president of SawStop has contributed a few posts.http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-tooltalk&msg=638.1MarkMeasure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Edited 3/26/2005 11:23 am ET by Mark
things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
your points are right on. i do wonder about your line about puting a seperate switch beside another switch for when you change the blade. every time i change the blade i think about unpluging it but i never do. why? because never in my life have i seen, or heard of a switch turning on all by itself, on anything. the on switches on all my machinery are recessed so they cannot be turned on even when leaning on it. so im currious as to how many people do that?Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
Now when i nod my head, you hit it.
Because we use the switches on and off so much, they are the most likely part to fail. I'm glad you haven't experienced a failed one yet. I had an old RAS that would come on when you dropped a board on the table. I took apart a SCMS last night and the amount of dust that had built up inside was amazing. I cut off the end of my thumb due to a faulty switch. I was changing the blades on a 16" jointer. A previous owner had retrofitted a magnetic switch. The on button was just about 1/16" proud of the shroud recess. I had never noticed and it doesn't take much to activate some switches. The machine was direct wired to a buss bar. The bar had a power on indicator light. Problem was, the light had burned out. I had shut off the power but left the shop for a while. Someone had to have a key to access the locked room where the power switch was located. It only took a 1/2 hr. for me to return and the same time for that individual to turn on the power make one cut and leave, locking the door. Either my knee or the stool I was using touched that on button. Just seconds before, I had been inserting a knife with both hands. The machine came on when I was rolling the head to the next location. With only two knives in the head, that 1/2 ton machine started to jump across the floor. I'm very fortunate, I could have lost all my fingers. My thumb is reattached, kind of ugly and gets real cold in the winter. You look at things very differently after an accident and take the time to think and check things out. Sometimes you don't get a second chance. Never trust a switch.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer,Great posts. The points about technique are very well put. All the things I have to suddenly stop and think about when I'm training someone. Don't know if I'll ever have to train again but I'll probably print that post and keep it on file to remind myself if I do have to train someone.Most of that stuff you don't even think about anymore, its just second nature. I usually go through it and then have newbie run a plank through a couple of times with the blade dropped so I can see if they are doing it safely or if there is something I forgot to mention. Also helps them get used to the feel of doing things right.Sorry to hear about your accident. There are those rare times that freak accidents happen. At least your conscience is clear on that one, I don't know how you could have accounted for all the things that led to it. The person careful enough to avoid that accident would probably never make it out the house due to checking the layers of redundancies necessary to have prevented it.
Thanks, Adastra. There are many more that I didn't include. Not raising the blade more than a 1/4" above the work, wearing a face shield in addition to safety glasses, dressing properly, keeping the floor clean, lowering the blade below the table when not using it, many of which are in the owners manual. Not many of us take the time to read them carefully. When I had my accident, I knew what stupid mistake I made in about 2 seconds. I knew the indicator light was a weak spot. The dust collector would rattle the bar joists and although I used a rough service bulb, they still would vibrate or just burn out. All I had to do was throw a switch on another tool to know if the power was on. When I pull the plug today, I flip the switch just to be sure. It's amazing how smart you get immediately. I remember making some mental notes about the experience. It's a humbling and humiliating thing. My minor injury wasn't life threatening but the body wants to go into shock as a defensive mechanism. You could easily get in some more trouble with a bad injury. You also realize your life could have taken a drastic change in a millisecond. There's no need to be afraid of power tools but we should be as meticulous with the safe use of them as we are with our projects. The project is just a thing. In the big scheme they have little value. We all seem to have an intrinsic sense when it's not quite right. That's the time to stop and refocus.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
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