If this falls flat here, I’ll post at Breaktime, but here it is: We bought a hammer drill for hubby to use for installing a railing in some cement steps. It’s a Makita, not the top of the line though, 3/4″ 6.6 amp if I remember correctly.
The problem is that both times he’s used it as a hammer drill, the chuck gets jammed somehow, such that he can’t turn it and get the bit out — when he tries, both parts of the 2-piece chuck turn, along with the shaft. He has to take a flat wrench or needlenose pliers and grab the “flats” on the main shaft (or whatever that is) to hold everything still while he undoes the chuck.
Not sure if he’s doing something wrong when he chucks up the bit, or uses the hammer drill, or if there’s something wrong with the drill. Thoughts?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Can you post the model #?
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SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES...THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT...THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
Hi, Don, sorry had to dig it out of Nick's truck. It's an HP1641.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Not sure about your model, but I have a Makita HR2511 and have drilled literally thousands of holes with it-it is probably 20 yrs old. It takes an SDS type bit(not sure what the SDS stands for) . This bit has 4 slots in the shank, and if you dont line the bit up correctly when inserting it into the drill, the bit will not rotate correctly and will fall out of the "chuck". Not sure if this helps but maybe.--------WW57
"not sure what the SDS stands for"Slotted Drill System.Not kidding!
I understand it to mean spline drive system, not to confused with spline drive. I will try to find some time to delineate the difference. for now I must get some sleep.
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SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES...THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT...THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
Woops meant to address this to all. Sorry.
Sds iirc means slot detente system. Sds and sds plus are the same thing. Sds max is diffeent as is spline drive.
Sds, plus, and max use a combination of slots to grip the bit and apply rotational force and a couple ball bearings that fill the oblong detents and retain the bit and allow it to travel back and forth.
Spline drive uses a series of teeth all the way around the shank of the bit to grip it and apply rotational force a collar system holds the bit in place.
In each case the impact force is delivered via a small piston system in the drill that slides back and forth to impact the end of the bit, driving it forward and creating a suction that pulls the bit back.
For Diyers and persons who don't need to drill holes over an inch, Sds is fine. Spline drive tools are for holes from 1 inch up to 6 inches. The real difference being the cost of the tools and bits. Sds is relatively affordable even for the occasoinal user. Spline drive tools are alot more expensive and the bits can be four times as much as the sds.
The advantage to The roatary hammer is the impact energy generated by them vs. the hammerdrill. Sds and spline systems generate alot more impact force breaking up the concrete more leaving less work and wear for the bit to assume. it is not uncommon to drill 15 to 20 holes with the same sds bit if not more, depending on the material.
As an added advantage, many sds drills have a third mode which means they can be equiped with a chisel for some light concrete chiping or for example removing tile.
Hope this helps.
Webby
Edited 9/21/2008 10:53 am ET by webby
Edited 9/21/2008 10:54 am ET by webby
Webby, thanks for posting all that info. The track that this thread took has opened my eyes to better choices for attacking concrete!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Probably a case of what's in a name. My PowerG SDS claims to be a Slotted Drill System but them it's made and documented in China.ForestGirl, to continue the eye-opening exercise, these can have 3 modes: Hammer Drill, Drill only and Hammer only. My daughter described it as a baby jack hammer. In hammer drill mode it pounds mercilessly into stone. Above 10mm diameter you really feel the difference. Using it hammer only with a chisel breaks stuff up a treat. I bought it for a particular roof maintainance job where I wanted to break up and replace concrete flashing.Using a normal hammer drill and a cold chisel I broke up about 2 metres in 2 hours. With the SDS drill I broke up 5 metres in 30 minutes.Warning, the beast is heavy.
WW57, you post has prompted discussion that's educating me about the various options for drilling in concrete. Thanks! The results may lead us to a tool that will actually drill holes in the floor of the gara.....shop, which would be great. When I built the wall that closes off the front side, I rented a hammer drill and got absolutely nowhere in drilling holes into the floor to anchor the darned thiing.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"When I built the wall that closes off the front side, I rented a hammer drill and got absolutely nowhere in drilling holes into the floor to anchor the darned thiing."
That seems odd - really odd. I wonder if the drill bit wasn't up to snuff. I own a Dewalt hammer drill, and also a BoschHammer SDS-plus rotary hammer. While there's no question that the BoschHammer will drill a 1" hole through concrete in less time than it takes to find the bit and chuck it up, the Dewalt is just as fast with a smaller drill bit used in the hammer mode.
Guess my point is, both tools with a concrete bit go through the stuff like a brad point does through wood. A dull concrete bit or a carbide regular drill bit will just sit there and spin.
I bought a brand new drill bit when I went at the concrete. This was years ago, so I couldn't tell you what brand the drill bit was, but I asked the guys at the local construction counter what to buy. It chipped the cement ever so slightly but did not drill a hole in it. Really frustrating.
Funny thing is, I can't remember now what I did to fix that wall. Probably not much, so I won't push any heavy iron into it, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If I remember right that model has a keyless chuck and that was a common problem. You can make sure you insert the bit into the chuck all the way but even then it can get stuck. Makitas method for unsticking it was to grab the sleeve (the wider portion of the chuck) with pliers and use a wrench on the hex nut at the tip of the chuck to loosen it.
Makita recommended water pump pliers (Channellocks) but I used a small strap wrench so as not to mar the customers tool!
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SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES...THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT...THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
Thanks for the info, Don. The drill is new from Home Depot, so I suspect we'll simply take it back once this project is finished. It is a keyless chuck. I'll try your method and let you know how it goes.
So, is a keyed chuck the only way to go? or are newer models or a different brand better??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I would go with a keyed chuck on a light hammer drill like that. The capacity in masonry is 5/8 on that model but as a practical matter I'd say 3/8 was more realistic.
For occasional light use in soft concrete they are fine, if it was something you were going to do a lot I'd go with the Bosch Bulldog in the 3/4 inch size. They use a whole different bit clamping (SDS) system that is not prone to jamming but the downside is you can not put a regular twist drill in them.
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SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES...THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT...THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
We shouldn't need a heavy-duty hammer drill, but I can see this Makita keyless is going to be a PITA. Will try to get the railing in and then take it back. This issue may be the reason they packaged it with an angle grinder cheap.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If you decide to keep it let me know and I'll see if I can get a Metabo chuck for it.
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SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES...THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT...THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
On the contrary. I have that exact Bosch drill and Home Depot sells a regular keyed chuck to fit in the SDS chuck. Lowe's doesn't carry it. As I recalled, it was about $50. It was cheaper than replacing all of my round bits with SDS bits. Plus, I can use the small Tapcon drills with the adaptor chuck.
As long as I'm on the subject, I've found Tapcon screws go in much easier if you drive them with a hammer setting. My cordless drill has a hammer feature and I thought I'd never use it, but it's great.
The tool will not take regular twist drills without the adapter that costs as much as a decent corded drill. It also only turns 1300 rpm as compared to 2500 rpm for a regular drill motor. It is also rather ungainly for use in many common drilling tasks.
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SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES...THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT...THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
Oh, I have regluar drills for that stuff. I bought that SDS adapter for my collection of non-SDS masonry drills.
Not to mention the huge tear outs that SDS roto-hammers leave compared to hammer drills. Though, I'm sure it can cut clean holes if one is careful.
I'm not seeing a hex nut at the end of the chuck. I did get the bit out by lightly tapping sideways on the chuck two times.
The sleeve (nose-cone thing) and the ring are the same diameter. Between the ring and the body of the drill, I can see a shaft that has "flats" on it. We were able to, once, get needlenose pliers on those flats and then turn the sleeve to loosen the chuck. That trick didn't work so well the second time, used the light tap routine successfully.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You didn't say if it was keyless or not, but I would return it. It sounds as if the chuck is bad.
You can replace chucks, if you just bought it is probably covered witht the warranty, but that involves finding a service center etc. etc.
Webby
The same thing happens with my el cheepo Hammer Drill. I have to rap it on the side to get it to let go of the bit. I miss recall the make of the thing (it is green :) ) but it is not the same as yours. So this may be an issue with keyless chucks and Hammer Drills.
Doug M.
A sideways rap is manageable. At least we wouldn't have to find a flat wrench small enough to get into that crevice. Will decide what to do after the railing's installed.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear FG,
If you are going to return it but still want something that will drill well into concrete, get a "rotary hammer". Don't let the amperage fool you, a decent (Bosch) rotary hammer will plow through concrete very rapidly with a lot less noise and wear and tear on the operator.
Best,
John
Thanks JM. I checked out the Bosch 11255VSR "Bulldog Extreme" rotary hammer. It seems like it would be a much better tool for us in the long run. Not sure we'll get one right away, but I appreciate the tip.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG, I purchased a new Bosch 11224 SDS Plus on eBay for a good price. No problem drilling holes in a 40 year old concrete workshop floor. Also, I have used chisels with good results.
CPO Bosch has them for $140.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00002246T/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1222115074&sr=1-1
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Edited 9/22/2008 4:25 pm ET by JerryPacMan
Dear FG,
I have the older model : http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-11224VSRKR-8-inch-Rotary-Hammer/dp/B00002246T/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1It has served me many years and is just terrific. Best,John
The Bulldog is an excellent hammer drill (not sure about the "extreme" version). I have used one for years. The hammering action of a hammer drill exerts WAAAAY too much force to be withstood by a standard drill chuck... hence the SDS and SDS max systems (spline drive is an older system but still good... just harder to get bits for now). The Bulldog in particular has a more aggressive hammering action than most brands or models. This makes it drill much faster and with less operator exasperation. The Bosch drill bits are excellent too and will drill many times more holes than a standard masonry bit in an ordinary hammer drill... I don't doubt that a user could easily save more on drill bits by using the better drills than he would spend on the total upgrade (drill and bits). Not to mention the speed and convenience!!!
For a quick example... I recently drilled about 50 to 70 holes in a concrete garage floor (one half inch diameter X two inches deep) with my Bulldog. I used the same bit for all the holes and will not replace it untill I have done three or four more such jobs with it (it had previously done several besides).
Edited 9/24/2008 8:37 pm ET by bigfootnampa
A couple of things hit me about this. I never realized their was a difference in the type of drills. I figured if they were "Hammer" Drills they were Hammer drills. So it is nice to learn their is a difference. As for the concrete being hard to drill into, I have slowly been putting furring strips on the walls of my basement and being as I want pull out resistance I am using Topcon screws vs. Powder Driven Nails. And I have found that the concrete can vary a lot in how hard it is to drill, and that the amount of pressure I put on the drill can effect it even more. The odd part is sometimes I get faster work backing off on the pressure. Their is a happy medium on this.
One other point I was cutting a whole in a tile (industrial floor tile) with a diamond bit and even with the so called hammer drill it took forever (the regular drill did nothing what so ever to the damn tile)
As for securing the wall to the floor, if you do not need pull out resistance (by this I mean you are worried about kicking it not tipping it over so much) then you can us a powder nailer system.
Doug M
In case this train has not yet left the station, I would also highly recommend an SDS rotary hammer drill from the Bosch line. The "entry level" offering is this 7/8" model, which is selling through Amazon for $139:http://www.amazon.com/Factory-Reconditioned-Bosch-11224VSR-46-8-inch-Rotary/dp/B000063N5M/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1222526213&sr=8-15I've had one for years, and there is no comparison to a conventional hammer drill. It will take drill bits (SDS style) up to 1" diameter. It will also accommodate either wood or masonry chisels, which can be very useful in renovation situations (like chipping tile from a wall/floor). You can also buy a conventional chuck (mine was about $60) that allows you to use any kind of conventional bit (masonry or wood), including hole saws. It snaps into the SDS chuck, without any fuss or tools.Unless you're using an SDS for larger holes, or using it in a commercial setting to drill masonry holes for 8 hours straight, this drill will handle all your needs.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hi, Nikki, thanks for the link. I like the looks of that one, being able to choose from 3 modes. Question for ya, though: What's this spec mean?
Optimal concrete capacity range: 3/16 to 5/8 inchforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
As a practical matter, this particular SDS drill is designed for drilling masonry holes for various fasteners -- e.g. 3/16" for Tapcons, 1/4" holes for lead mollies, and 1/2" for lead shields (for 1/4" lag screws). If you need something that will drill larger holes (say for pipes or electrical conduits), then you are better off with one of the beefier SDS drills in the Bosch line (which are dramatically more expensive). To be honest, I have never bought an SDS drill bit for this machine larger than 1/2" -- but I assumed they were available for this machine in sizes up to 1". but I may be wrong about that, and for those larger sizes it might be necessary to have a model designated as SDS "plus" or "max".However, the few times I have had to drill a hole larger than 1/2" for a pipe, I have just used the 1/4" bit, drilled about 3 closely spaced holes, and then cleaned it out with a 1/2" bit. While a PIA, one can also use a carbide tipped hole saw, which I have done (with the regular chuck mentioned earlier) for 2" holes through a cement block foundation to accommodate 1 1/2" electrical conduit.In other words, unless you are a plumber or an electrician that routinely has to drill holes larger than 1/2 through masonry surfaces, the Bosch model I was touting is a sound choice -- functionally and expense-wise.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood,The Bulldog, like all SDS tools, will accept any bit with an SDS or SDS-Plus shank (10 mm diameter shank). The 11224 Bulldog is rated at 7/8" because that is the maximum diameter bit that should be used in it. SDS bits go up to 1-1/8" diameter.SDS-Max tools go much larger, and have a 20mm shank that fits the chuck. Smaller diameter bits cost a lot more in SDS-Max because they are machined from 20mm blanks.Bill
Can I point out that there are various grades of concrete and they really do vary in hardness. Anything from C30 up is *really* hard. Had an amusing incident (to me) a couple of years ago. We needed to break up some concrete buttresses against a wall because we were building a new bottling hall which would adjoin the existing structure.These buttresses had been designed to be removed when this happened. The contractor (who had built these buttresses in 1988) quoted for a 2 day,2man job using jackhammers.It took a full week for a man with a hi-mac (sort of small bulldozer with a BIG jackhammer). Turned out that the concrete was close to C35.If you're drilling into anything like this all you can do is use the most powerful tool you can and eat lots of spinach.
Forest.. Maybe the drill wanted to have a woman to use it? Be more friendly! I have no idcea!
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