Replies

1. 
   Ardito | Jan 17, 2005 10:59pm | #1

   I have recently finished a piece like you were describing and used the Hammer Veneer technique.  I had 100% success with this technique but only using "hide glue".  Other glues/adhesives I used did not work at all with multiple piece veneer jobs like this one.  Have you used Hide Glue before?  For a multiple piece veneer job like this there really is no other way to go.

   Dark Magneto

2. 
   Rich14 | Jan 17, 2005 11:26pm | #2

   JH,

   Yes, the project you describe can be done very well with the hammer method as Dark Megneto indicates. Hot hide glue is by far the best to use for the kind and size of pattern you describe.

   To answer your question, it's necessary to know what glue you are using, the type of veneer, and how you are preparing your substrate and the veener. The fact that your center field is cracking indicates problems in veneer preparation that need solving before the more general question.

   What is the dimension of the panel, the central field, the edge pieces?

   Rich

1. 
   markhamj | Jan 18, 2005 12:37am | #3

   I have been using hot hide glue (purchased from Lee Valley - their pearl hide glue). I've been putting it in a jar and covering it with water overnight before heating in a double boiler. I've tried applying the glue to both substrate and veneer and just the substrate. At present I'm using 1/4" plywood as a substrate (I've got lots of scraps) that glued together to get 1/2" panels. On these experimental pieces the main field is about 8" by 4" and the banding is 1" wide. I eventually have in mind much larger projects including a dining room table. Outside of trying to lay some glue on the veneer just before gluing to the substrate I haven't done any preparation to the veneer. I have thought of putting a glue sizing on the veneer first but have the impression this will make the veneer very difficult to cut.

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 18, 2005 01:41am | #4

   JK,What veneer? (What wood?) How thick? Is it flat? Wavy?Here's the general technique for this kind of project. To carry off the design, the layout has to look meticulously accurate. That can't be accomplished with the unbonded veneer- only after some has been bonded to the substrate.Start with the veneer as flat as possible. If it is curly or wavy, wet both sides and clamp in a veneer press between newsprint overnight. Repeat if necesary.The substrate panel must be exactly the desired size and perfectly square. Carefully indicate the location of the central field on the face, extending the layout lines all the way out to the edges. Use a marking knife or very sharp pencil.Assuming 2 veneer strips need to be jointed (width-wise) to cover the central area: Spread glue over the indicated area, allowing a little outside the lines. Mist both sides of the first strip. This is crucial to the entire process. Lay it down so that it extends slightly beyond the layout lines top and bottom and one side and it covers about half the field. Hammer it down.Using a straightedge, joint the edge in the middle of the field. It is amazing how easy it is to accurately cut damp veneer that is bonded to a substrate. Peel up the waste. Joint the second piece of veneer with whatever jointing method you have devised for this job (a plane or sandpaper block and a shooting board, or clamped between two straight boards, etc.). Mist both sides. Place this piece down snugly against the first, with a 1/8" metal rod parallel to the joint, 1 inch away under the new piece. Tape the joint if you wish with masking tape. Hammer the new piece away from the rod toward the edge of the field.Then remove the rod and tape and hammer the bulge in the veneer and the remaining inch strip next to the joint. Pressing the bulge out will put pressure against the joint. This joint will not open as the glue cools and dries and the field veneer should not show any tendancy to split.Trim the field veneer exactly on the layout lines. Remove the waste. Joint one of the pieces for the edge treatment. You can also cut one miter now, or cut both after bonding this piece. You won't be able to use the metal rod technique because this piece is too narrow and the grain is running the wrong way.Apply glue to the substrate, mist both sides of this piece and butt the jointed edge against the field veneer. If you have made one miter, line up this piece exactly where it needs to be. Use the hammer to press this piece down to the substrate and sideways against the field piece. Glue will escape through the joint as you press/slide this piece tight. Cut one or both miters with a straightedge and a sharp knife.Repeat for the other 3 edge pieces. Remember to wet the veneer on both sides before gluing down. Trim all around the edge of the panel, leaving about 1/8" of veneer for final trimming when everything's dry. If you leave the wet veneer pieces untrimmed, the edges will dry much more quickly than the bonded part and checks can develop which may continue right into the bonded part.Read through this a few times, I have not discussed at which points the hot hide glue is still workable on the panel as you work (especially concerning creating the central field). You will need to imagine a "dry run" to anticipate that kind of thing.Joints don't open and veneer doesn't crack using this method. Don't forget to veneer the back of the panel.Rich

   Edited 1/17/2005 5:45 pm ET by Rich14

1. 
   markhamj | Jan 18, 2005 03:33am | #5

   Thanks for the advise. It seems perhaps my glue is setting up too quickly. It's -40 outside in my part of the world right now and its hard to keep the shop warm. Perhaps I'll try heating the subtrate near a radiator for a while. As for gluing up the other side of the panel, does it need to be done in the same session?

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 18, 2005 09:07am | #6

   The longer you wait, the greater the possibility (certainty) of warping the panel. If you let it warp and then veneer the back, it should eventually return to flat, but it may not completely. Why tempt Murphy?-40?! Brrr!!!If you can't get your workplace to a comfortable 70-75 when working with hot hide glue, you really shouldn't work with it. Not only does the glue need to be hot, but the substrate and air and tools need to be at a workable temperature. Otherwise you are fighting against impossible odds. The glue just cools too quickly for any kind of craftsman-like work.Rich

   Edited 1/18/2005 1:12 am ET by Rich14

2. 
   mike4244 | Jan 24, 2005 05:02pm | #10

   Rich, would the plywood substrate have any bearing on the problem? I have only done a minimal amount of veneering myself. The one time I had a problem with the veneer cracking was on the open side of kitchen cabinets. The case was birch and I veneered oak to it. The veneer bubbled and cracked after several months.A friend of mine who is familiar with veneering told me I did several things wrong. First I applied veneer with contact cement, also ran the veneer grain vertically with substrate grain running same way.I redid the job, removed veneer, crossbanded with another (birch I think) veneer .Then applied the oak veneer. I used hot hide glue, first experience with it, been using hot hide glue ever since. That was 18 years ago, veneer held up fine.Thanks for your original post, I printed it out for reference.

   mike

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 24, 2005 06:58pm | #11

   Mike,I think the veneer failure you had was due to having used contact cement in a kitchen environment. Was it solvent based or water based contact?Plywood is cross-banded layer for layer for dimensional stability of the entire thickness. When veneering, the veneer can be layed down in any direction necessary for the design. The important consideration is to back the piece up with similar veneer to avoid stresses that will warp the piece.Rich

2. 
   mike4244 | Jan 24, 2005 11:11pm | #12

   Rich I used a solvent based contact cement . After redoing the job with hot hide glue it stayed perfect after all these years. Thanks for your quick reply

   mike

3. 
   RMillard | Jan 18, 2005 03:05pm | #7

   As others have said, hammer veneering will work for your project. I have hammer veneered large panels, with the largest being a 27" x 73" sideboard top ( done with one full width sheet of veneer.)My only failure with hammer veneering was a 4 point match of burl maple veneer. The veneer just would not stay where I wanted it as it dried, although I think now with more experience, I could do it successfully. Here is what I do to veneer a panel. If the veneer is wavy, then it should be flattened. I do this in one of two ways. With crotch veneer I brush on a very thin coat of hot hide glue to both sides of the veneer, and press between sheets of plastic wrap, leaving it out an hour so each day for a week. Other types of veneer just get dampened with distilled water and pressed between sheets of plain news print for a couple of days. Give the substrate a coat of thinned down glue a day before you plan on veneering. This will insure that your glue won't soak in too fast while hammering ( this one step will greatly ease the whole operation) Heat the glue and add water until it runs of the brush in a steady stream. Too thick and it will be difficult to hammer and too thin it won't bond as well as it should. Adding a tiny amount(5% of the water volume) of white vinegar seems to help with the initial tack. Slap some glue on the substrate and give the face of your veneer a slight dampening, and then immediately place it on the glued substrate. -40 outside does present a problem, but my shop is often under 50 degrees, and I have no trouble, in fact I have far more difficulty on very hot days than cold ones. On even the smallest panel, the glue will gel before you have time to hammer it down, so just hit it with an iron placed on low heat. If you hear a sizzle, then your iron is too hot. Use an iron with Teflon base if you can. Re-heat with the iron and hammer the veneer down. From your description, I'm wondering if you may have hammered when the glue was too cold, or that you went across the grain with the hammer. Both of these can stress the veneer and lead to cracks down the road. If you come to spot that won't stay down, and you're sure you had enough glue on it in the first place, let it sit for about a half hour and re-heat and hammer again. 99% of the time this will fix the problem. Before the glue cures, you can go around with a sharp knife and cut the edges for your cross banding. The cross band is laid the same way, just being sure to hammer only with the grain.

   I've only had a couple of occasions where I had to make a seam with the grain, but I laid one sheet, and let it sit for an hour, and then laid another sheet that had its edge trued with a plane. I let the second sheet overlap the edge of the first one, and hammered it down. After it had set for a few minutes, I carefully cut the lower sheet using the plane trued edge as a guide, and then reheat and pull out the trimmed off piece.

   Rob Millard

1. 
   markhamj | Jan 23, 2005 10:11pm | #8

   Thanks for all the help. I think my glue was too watery. Misting the veneers and applying a coat of glue to the substrate really seems to help. The vinegar in the glue doesn't seem to make much of difference but neither did it hurt. One of the benefits of this method is how easily the veneer cuts an peels off right after hammering. I have been finding hammering the cross banding to be a bit of a trick since drawing the hammer towards the edge of the subrate pulls is away from the centre field. I've tried holding it in place with veneer tape but it doesn't seem to help. Any tricks I'm missing

2. 
   creekwood | Jan 24, 2005 05:59am | #9

   Rob, in making the seam on a long stretch of veneer, do you use a veneer saw? I've read an article in FWW on Veneering by Tage Frid, and he described how to sharpen and hone a veneer saw. Is this your method, or do you have another way?

    

1. 
   RMillard | Jan 25, 2005 03:28am | #13

   I sharpened my veneer saw as described by some guy named Polairno (spelling?) who owned Flamingo Veneers. He filed the toothed edge with a single bevel for working against a straight edge. This helped it track better. The only time I've used it is when I made a couple of veneer checker boards, where it worked very well. Other than that time, I made the few with the grain seams, by shooting one the edge with a jointer plane, and letting it overlap the pervious glued piece. The jointed edge is used as a guide for cutting the seam, with a knife. This worked on straight grain veneers, I used it for, but I doubt it would work well on wild grain woods. For that situation I'd either shoot both edges with the jointer or use the veneer saw.
   Rob Millard

1. 
   creekwood | Jan 25, 2005 05:24am | #14

   Thanks, Rob. I've done it where you cut through both the veneers with the saw, and then pull out the piece underneath. Results were good, but those projects didn't have the length of seam I have now, about 60". I like the idea of a single bevel filed on the saw. Think I'll try  that.

   Again, thanks.

   Jerry