To: everyone
I attended a course at the Inside Passage School of Fine Woodworking last week on building a drawer. The instructor was Jim Budlong from the College of the Redwoods. Great course and I would recommend it to anyone interested in proper construction of drawers. Anyways, back to the topic of my discussion.
While I was at the school, I notice that hollow grinding of chisels and plane blades were done on a hand crank bench grinder made by the Prairie Tool Company from Wisconsin. Unlike power ginders, this method prevents heat buildup that could remove the temper from the steel. A 6″ Norton Cool grinding stone was attached to the bench grinder with tools sharpened on a Veritas grinder tool rest.
Unfortunately, the Prairie Tool Company is no longer in business. Does anyone know who may have purchased their inventory or who may be selling these manually powered bench grinders.
Bill
Replies
These are all over at antique shops. I almost bought a really nice one for $14. Come to think of it...I don't know why I didn't...that's not like me.
Drew Langsner of Country Workshops used to sell the Prairie grinders. If he is out of stock, maybe he can help find another supplier.
http://countryworkshops.org/store.html
Why crank? I have used a high speed 6" grinder, (yes, I said HIGH speed), with a white wheel for many, many years and never burn the steel, just use a light touch and a can of water.
Dear Napie
Couple of reasons why a hand bench grinder is more useful than a powered one:
1) Difficult for accidentially making a mistake on a hand grinder than on a powered one. It just take a second to make an error on a power grinder that will take some time to correct
2) Accidents to body parts not likely with a hand grinder
3) Are your sure that you have not accidentally removed the temper on your chisels or plane blades in the past that you are not aware of
These were the reasons that the Inside Passage School of Fine Woodworking told me. They do use power grinders to remove major nicks to their tools. But they use the hand grinder to grind a hollow on their chisels and bench plane blades and then touch up the ends on Norton Waterstones when they dull.
BillC
Well, I follow the advice of Tage Frid, a guy who really made a living as a woodworker, and he ground his tools on a 3x21 belt sander clamped in a vice. How do I know they didn't lose hardness, they hold an edge. Also, tempering is the process of softening the steel after it is hardened to reduce the brittleness and toughen it, so to "lose" temper would in fact make the steel harder. I am also a fan of oil stones, old fashioned I know, but they work. I'd rather be make shavings vs. spending time at the sharpening bench.
While I really enjoy Krenov's work, there is a bit too much navel gazing for my taste. While he did bring the art of the small cabinet to its height, where are the chairs, large cabinets, tables, etc.? Just my opinion.
I bought a hand grinder for $1 at an auction. It works great when I go to remote sites.
Dan
Now that would be cool, I have visions of the wilderness cabin.....
If you read all the books, you will find that Krenov made clocks, chairs, tables, chess tables, and other items as well. He did prefer the cabinets though...
"Well, I follow the advice of Tage Frid, a guy who really made a living as a woodworker, and he ground his tools on a 3x21 belt sander clamped in a vice. How do I know they didn't lose hardness, they hold an edge. Also, tempering is the process of softening the steel after it is hardened to reduce the brittleness and toughen it, so to "lose" temper would in fact make the steel harder. I am also a fan of oil stones, old fashioned I know, but they work. I'd rather be make shavings vs. spending time at the sharpening bench." "While I really enjoy Krenov's work, there is a bit too much navel gazing for my taste. While he did bring the art of the small cabinet to its height, where are the chairs, large cabinets, tables, etc.? Just my opinion."Your method of tempering is outdated and not near as good as what is being done today commercially. In most cases it is no longer quenched and then softened. In fact if you notice that some of it uses cryogenics to temper steel. The quenching methoc produces a greater number of distorted pieces and rejects. Cryogenics reduces that number essentially to zero. You don't think Krenov made a living doing furniture? What do you think he did in Sweden before starting the school? He was about 55 when he was asked to come and start the school. I sharpen just like Krenov does. If I spent 30 seconds sharpening my tools that would be too long. Krenov does not make tables and chairs. However many of his students have. Everybody has their preferences. Just thought you might like to know that Ron Hock uses a type of belt sander that he made to hollow grind his plane irons. I don't know of anyone who would care to spend that kind of money for their own shop to produce the kind of production he has just for a few blades at home.
The definition of tempering IS to soften; cryogenics is a modern part of that process. My method outdated? Well, there are some pretty top end knife makers who still use that process. Ever heard of Randall Knives, there is a three year wait for one and they use that “outdated” method.
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As to Krenov, per his own words he has always been an amateur. While he has sold his work, he was never a “professional” woodworker. He came here in early seventies to teach for free at RIT. He then knocked around a lot of places promoting his books for quite a while. The program at the College of the Redwoods stated much later.
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The belt sander Frid uses is a 3x21 Porter Cable, about $150.00, not some custom made production unit.
" He came here in early seventies to teach for free at RIT. He then knocked around a lot of places promoting his books for quite a while. The program at the College of the Redwoods started much later." No, he VISITED the US intermittently in the 70s to lecture, but he never stopped making fine furniture, and he NEVER went anywhere to "promote" his books. He lived in Sweden with his family until 1980, when he moved to the US and started the school. He has stated over and over again that he has been a very lucky man who found what he loved to do and was able to earn a modest income doing it. The book income was a bonus, not a windfall, and he never gave up making cabinets as his main source of income. His philosophy of fine woodworking did not exclude making it his source of income or his way of providing for his family. I'm sorry, I'm not a regular contributor here, but this is the second time you misrepresent JK and his work, and I felt a compelling need to make this statement. I hope you're not offended--it's just a matter of setting the record straight for you, not trying to change or judge your opinions, which I'm sure are very valid.
Here is a quote purportedly from Krenov in an interview for the Smithsonian (I say purportedly in case you think the Smithsonian makes a habit of creating interviews out of thin air).
"MR. FITZGERALD: Did you go to the College of the Redwoods after that, or did you go back to Sweden?
MR. KRENOV: Oh, I knocked around. Hell, I had the books and I had invitations to Japan and New Zealand and I worked where I was and then Van Nostrand Reinhold sent me barnstorming with the books. They sent me to every nook and corner in America, and one of them was Santa Cruz in California.
We did a program at The Cooper Union in New York: 900 people were there that night – 900 people. I spent until about 4:00 in the morning signing books."
Sure sounds like book promoting to me. Here's a link to the interview.
http://www.aaa.si.edu/collections/oralhistories/transcripts/krenov04.htm
What is the source of your adamant proclamation?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I remember Krenov telling some of us that he had no intention of ever writing a book. It was a man he knew who helped him and encouraged him to that.
TinaK:
Judging by what I have read this is more than the second time you have misrepresented Krenov. There are a great many differences in his history between his interview with the Smithsonian and your strident assertations. How do you account for this disparity? Was he misquoted? Was the interview that is now part of American history fabricated? On what do you base your attacks? Have you personal knowledge? What are your qualifications?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I have found Krenov to be a humble man just doing his work while others have spent a lot of time criticizing him and calling him arrogant while they misunderstand his confidence and abilities.I think the quality of his work and the quality of the student he has turned out over the years speaks more than he could ever say and surpass his critics who try to chop him down.
Who on this forum has criticized him, called him arrogant or otherwise disparaged him?
The fact that he is an extraordinarily talented amateur who has been an inspiration to many seems undisputed on this forum.
The lack of knowledge and logic and the surfeit of emotionalism on the topic of krenov by some is appalling.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian ProverbEdited to replace gifted with talented, calling his talent a gift seemed to me to cheapen his accomplishments as it implies it was given to him rather than his having to work toward it.
Edited 9/25/2006 3:04 am by dgreen
Edited 9/25/2006 3:10 am by dgreen
Edited 9/25/2006 3:20 am by dgreen
Edited 9/25/2006 3:25 am by dgreen
"Who on this forum has criticized him, called him arrogant or otherwise disparaged him?The fact that he is an extraordinarily talented amateur who has been an inspiration to many seems undisputed on this forum."You are right. Nobody has called him arrogant. I should have read better. In the past (not here) I have heard him talked about as being arrogant. So, I apologize.Krenov may refer to himself as an amateur. I do not of anyone who has studied under him who would describe him that way. From what I can remember him talking about he did not think of himself as a professional in the sense that he was not like those in the wood or lumber industry cranking out the same piece time after time. He did not find walls of the same kind of veneer with the same repeating pattern attractive. He desribed that much like monkeys looking at you.
"The definition of tempering IS to soften; cryogenics is a modern part of that process. My method outdated? Well, there are some pretty top end knife makers who still use that process." Ever hear of John Deere? They do not use your method.I cannot think of one manufacturer that uses your technology of tempering except a knife maker. A lot of work being done today is done starting with soft material and making it hard. It is never fully hardened first and then softened.My webster's reads for temper "
a. the degree of hardness and strength imparted to a metal, as by quenching, heat treatment, or cold working.
b. the percentage of carbon in tool steel.
c. the operation of tempering.Knife makers are not the highest on the technology list when it comes to heat treatment technology. "The belt sander Frid uses is a 3x21 Porter Cable, about $150.00, not some custom made production unit."My German hand grinder including the grinding wheel cost about $50.I wonder how much Frid spent on abrasive belts and belt sander?The time it takes Frid to turn on his belt sander I would be done with a hand grinder. I was working in a shop about 15 years ago and one of the workers told me about the Frid method. I did not say anything and just went about my work until one day he saw me sharpen something. The belt sander idea never came up again. For every new year there is a new idea waiting to be sold to the public.
Edited 9/25/2006 2:48 am by gb93433
John Deere? Why yes I have even owned a few. OK, I'm sure John Deere has good use for advanced heat treating technology for axles, and PTO shafts etc.<!----><!----><!---->
All the carving tool makers I have questioned still use that old outdated method of heat treat. Oh yeah, I don’t think those supper expensive Japanese chisels are cryogenically treated either, so they must be junk along with those swords they make.<!----><!---->
I think your Webster’s is a bit general in it’s definitions. Per Wikipedia:<!----><!---->
Tempering is a heat treatment technique for metals and alloys. In steels, tempering is done to "toughen" the metal by transforming brittle martensite into bainite or ferrite. Precipitation hardened alloys, like many grades of aluminum and superalloys, are tempered to precipitate intermetallic particles which strengthen the metal.<!----><!---->
In metallurgy, there is always a tradeoff between ductility and brittleness. This delicate balance highlights many of the subtleties inherent to the tempering process. Precise control of time and temperature during the tempering process are critical to achieve a metal with well balanced mechanical properties<!----><!---->
Usually a quenched blade is too brittle for use until tempered. Depending on the alloy used, it will be evenly heated between 200 and 500 degrees Fahrenheit (90 to 260 °C), held at that temperature (soaked) for an appropriate time (seconds or hours), then cooled slowly over an appropriate duration (minutes or hours). This heat treatment will ensure a stong blade that will hold an edge but not break by balancing the amount of hard martensite with ductile ferrite and pearlite.<!----><!---->
In certain cases, different areas of an object will be heat treated differently. This is called differential hardening. It is common in high quality knives and swords. The Japanese katana is the best known for this. However, Chinese swords were traditionally done this way, as were Nepalese Khukuri, and many others.<!----><!---->
The belt sander can of course be used for many other applications, Frid was a practical guy.<!----><!---->
Those Japanese swords are called Toyotas today. "Oh yeah, I don’t think those supper expensive Japanese chisels are cryogenically treated either, so they must be junk along with those swords they make."Never said they were junk. I essentially said that there is more to heat treating than the old method of heating and quenching. Personally I think the japanese chisels are way over rated. Would much rather have Henry Taylor, Jacob Bush or Hirsch chisels though. Once I did buy a Henry Taylor carving tool that was soft and would not hold an edge so I sent it back to the company I bought it from. They sent it back telling me I had sharpened it wrong and told me they had sharpened it. I wrote them back again along with the tool telling them it was soft and that I was taking a carving class at COR. They sent it back again with the same answer. So I sent it directly to Henry Taylor. Nine days from the day I sent it I received it along with a letter of apology telling me that they would talk with the supplier. That supplier is no longer in business. Many years ago I imported Henry Taylor carving and turning tools for a company I worked for and they have absolutely the best service. Ron Hock seems to think that cryogenically treated plane irons are superior. He has reduced his defects to essentially zero. There is no oxide on the outside leaving a black film. The irons are bright. The backs are flattened in less time because of no distortion. That seems hard to beat.
Edited 9/25/2006 1:25 pm by gb93433
Napie,
Just curious if you have fashioned any sort of tool rest for the belt sander technique.Thanks,
Max
No, just eyeballed it.
Bill,
I use a vintage hand grinder for my own sharpening, they work fine for plane blades and straight chisels that you can guide with a small jig that clamps on the blade. As noted, they are fairly easy to find on E-bay and in antique shops. They came in all sizes from 4 inch to 10 inch wheels. The small ones work just fine for woodworking tools.
Lehman's Hardware, a mail order source for the Amish community, used to stock one, but it isn't in their current catalog.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Seems to me you could pretty easily build your own hand grinder -- 5/8" drill rod, pillow blocks, pulleys, V-belt, etc. Use your imagination. Hmm, this is starting to interst me.
Jim Budlong was one of the instructors years ago when I was at College of the Redwoods. I learned a lot from him. He knows what he is doing.
If you're going to hollow grind I'd suggest an 8" or bigger wheel.
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