To Hand-cut Dovetailers,
I want to begin cutting my dovetails by hand and need a recommendation on a good saw. I want to avoid having to buy 5 saws before I find a really good one. I’ve used both Western and Japanese saws of varaying quality. I’d apprectiate your input on brands you think are excellent saws.
Thanks for the input.
Biff
Replies
I'd recommend dropping coin on the Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw. It's about $125. Here's my two cents:
I have the L-N saw, a $25 French-made dovetail saw avail from Garrett-Wade, a Danish bow-saw with a blade with teeth set and filed for fine rip cutting, and two hardware-store dovetail saws. All will cut dovetails. With the L-N I get the most consistent qualitiy and I don't have to concentrate as much. When I'm doing woodworking with handtools my mind is generally half-focused on the book I'm writing. Since I don't do woodworking for a living and I'm not trying to compete with the greatest woodworking ever done, this situation is okay with me. As a matter of fact, it is what I want. With the four alternative dovetail saws, I really have to focus with the concentrated energy of a surgeon to get an accurate cut.
By the way, I think the little book on dovetailing by Ian Kirby is quite useful.
Good luck, Ed
ED
Well said, Mr. Ed! :>)
And not to taint the topic, Miller Falls recieved and was expecting rust as an anchor that has been sub-merged a while. I did not find that expected rust and was somewhat disappointed as I had purchased a gal. of kerosene in preparation for a good outside soaking. With that said if hard times befall, you always can fall back on gift-wrapping at some retail store as it took me about ten minutes to finally see the rust that was not there after I initially blew the outside tape with a blasting cap and C-4.
Have to decide what to do with this kerosene now. E-bay perhaps or maybe someone has 4 or 5 dovetail saws laying around rusting. ha.. ha...
Thanks a million for the Miller Falls and a marker is due on my part. At any point you want to pull in the marker, three light taps-three heavy taps-three light taps on the Work-Bench will get a response.
Have a great day in Meridian.......
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You're welcome, Sarge. Put it to good use. Mississippi v. LSU this afternoon. Game of the year around these parts. Have a good weekend. Ed
Ed
for my 1/50 of a dollar — I'll add also get a coping saw – this will allows you to quickly saw out most of the waste
Ian
I don't suppose you're Ian Kirby are you. If so, I really find your dovetail book and sharpening book excellent. I always recommend them to others.
Sorry guys. What does "set" on the teeth mean?
Amateur question, but thanks, in advance for answering.
Saw teeth are generally bent oppositely outwards to allow the sawdust to clear with each stroke.
Sawsets are designed to make the set once for the entire duration of use until you return that saw to the saw filer. Dull cutting edges take bigger chunks and like more set.
Learn to at least touch up those cutting edges occasionally and you can live with half the set the sawset tool calls for. Less set means easier cutting and cleaner cuts.
Robbie,
At the risk of being redundant, I'll mention Tom Law's excellent video "Hand Saw Sharpening." In it, he patiently explains how & why to tune-up a hand saw, demonstrates the tools required to do the job, and recommends specific files to use for saws of various kinds and sizes.
PaulWhether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Crazy Ray
Just a little tip. Move your cursor to the person's name in the top of box where it says From: ian.... Click on the name and it will take you to their profile. You will see that this ian is from Sdyney, Austraila. He's a nice, know-ledgeable person while sober, but not the Ian Kirby your speaking of. I am a fan of Kirby also.
BTW, I will catch h*ll for the sober part. Those Aussies have been out to get me since I went down-under several times a long time ago and showed them how to surf. ha..ha..
HI ian.... he..he.. :>)
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
now I owe you a beer
when will you next be down this way?
Ian
ian
"When will you next be down this way"?
As soon as my wife figures out that these hand planes that keep showing up on UPS and Fed-Ex arent't being sent for me to test by the manufacturer. ha.. ha...
How long does it take to row from the Pacific Coast of the U.S. to Sdyney Harbor. Since you guys have forced me to get involved with these planes and the addiction, I can't afford a ticket by standard transportation. I was thinking about setting up shop in that opera house. Nice scenic location with lots of light and a nice view.
:>)
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
yeah the view's great, but the sky lights face the wrong way. Instead of difuse light from the southern sky you get full on sun and along with the heat near black and white lighting through the summer.
Guess we'll just have to knock a couple of holes in another wall. BTW when we refit it as a shop, the floor under the seats (mostly laminated hardwood strips) should be recoverable – it would make some great benches,
as for rowing, I'm told that transpacific row boats cost more than an airline seat – though I'm not sure that air line food is better than rowers rations
Ian
Dear Ed,
I read your message in the Knots Forum. I'm in the market for a dovetail saw and am seriously considering the LN dovetail saw. I believe the one you have is the one listed in the LN catalog as the "dovetail saw" @ $125 and not the carcass rip saw which is slightly larger. I just wanted to double-check before I place the order. What technique do you use to remove the waste between the saw kerfs? Also, do you know anything about the Cosman video on dovetailing that LN sells?
Thanks,
Howard
Howard,
I'm flattered that you would ask me for my opinion but I'm just a rank amatuer/ home hobbiest - there are many, many people on this forum who are a lot better woodworkers than I, and who do it for a living.
That said - no I have not seen the Rob Cosman video. I remove waste with a very sharp chisel (I have Marples Blue Chips, Two Cherries, and some old Stanleys) because that is the most fun for me. I like to see the tails and pins slowly emerge. I tap so lightly with a carver's mallet, it doesn't even wake my two dogs up. The moment of truth is when you first dry-fit the joint together. What a great feeling when it fits together well! In the past, when I have got into a hurry because of deadlines (Christmas presents) I have used the technique where you remove waste with a coping saw. I've heard of people even doing it with a router.
The biggest challenge for a daydreamer like me is clearly marking what is the waste and what is meant to be a tail or pin. When I lived in Australia in 91-92, there was a popular song by Paul Kelly titled "I've Done All the Dumb Things." I believe a bit of it is in the soundtrack for the movies "Young Einstein," and "Three Men and A Baby." That is the theme song of my woodworking experience - "I've Done All The Dumb Things."
Yes the Lie-Nielsen Dovetail saw is a great tool. The smaller one, at $125 is the one you want. The teeth should be filed in a rip-cutting profile for cutting dovetails. All of the L-N tools are great. If I had the money, I would buy everything that they make. Good luck with your woodworking. Back to wiring my shop today - two 120 volt circuits and one 240 volt - with the switches and outlets in the right places - hoo-ray!
Ed
"listed in the LN catalog as the "dovetail saw" @ $125 and not the carcass rip saw which is slightly larger."
Sphrj1,
I have the dovetail saw, and it's terrific. The dovetail saw is a rip saw, and the carcass saw is configured for crosscutting.
BTW, if you take your tools into the field, as I do, LN is now selling leather cases for these saws as well as their small brass spokeshaves (which are terrific tools - but that's a tale for another day).
Hope that's the kind of info you're looking for,PaulWhether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Biff,
I would just echo what Ed said....LN or an LN class Dovetail saw....the darn thing forces you to do it right.
A couple weeks ago I came across some old Disston's ...also very nice. I bought a Disston Backsaw for $5 bucks....it is fantastic for cross cuts...like butter.
Also, as Ed suggested buy Ian's book...it delivers so much more than just dovetails..
Adria makes a beautiful saw as well Adria Toolworks I think....
If fiscally challenged:
I go blind trying to sharpen those old Disstons off of Ebay, which aren't that cheap.
The 20-dollar European ones don't cut very well and the modern nice ones cost as much as my old Fordson did.
A decent compromize for me are those inexpensive Shark brand pull saws at Amazon.com's Toolcrib.
Have you seen the Veritas saw, which can be bought as a package with their guide block jig. Looks to me like the best thing. Both jig and saw specifically address hand-cut tails. While you are buying tools, get a left and right skew chisels for paring after chopping.
To Biff and Mr. Micro,
The last time I posted a reply, I was "spotted" for what it was. However, since we are on the subject of handmade dovetails and saws, and Mr. Micro mentions the Veritas dovetail jig, I feel comfortable saying that precision and variable spacing dovetailing {or numerous other joints } with almost any "backless" saw is possible with the AngleMag. I prefer the rigid Japanese pull saw along with the Lie N. saws. If any one out there has access to the Australian Woodworker Issue No. 40, Sept. 2003, you will find an excellent review of both the Veritas Dovetail Jig and the AngleMag. Keep on hand cutting dovetails. Jeff
If you want to spend the money on an L-N, go right ahead. But if you are as cheap as I am, look for an older saw or a cheaper one, and get it sharpened right.
I have a Freud (English made) dovetail saw that I paid $30 for in the 70's, as well as a brass-backed, open handled English dovetail saw that I also paid about $30 for at an antique shop.
Each of them cuts better than an out-of -the box L-N that we compared at the local Woodcraft store. This isn't my opinion, but rather the unanimous opinion of the employees who tried the saws for themselves.
Point is, any 8" backsaw with a straight blade and a comfortable handle will do a great job if sharpened properly. There's not a lot of difference in the steel, because they all have to be sharpened easily with a file. Any saw will have to be sharpened eventually, so even the most expensive saw is at the mercy of the sharpener.
I sharpen my own because it takes less time than sending them out, and I get a better job. It's easy to learn, and you can pick up a good saw vise for about $20, and a file for a few dollars.
I do prefer a traditional saw to the pull saws, although they certainly have their place. Look for about 12 to 15 TPI, filed straight across (rip tooth).
Michael R
Woodwiz-
I plan to do my own sharpening on a saw which has 18(?) TPI, since Woodcraft does not have the equipment to sharpen saws with this many TPI. What type of file do you use to sharpen such saws? If you don't mind, would you walk me through the process?
Thanks in advance.
T2
This will answer all of your questions about saw sharpening:
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html
Cheers,
Kyle
The link that Kyle posted pretty much covers anything I could tell you.
I got my saw vises for $20 each at flea markets, the saw sets cost around $10. AStanley 42X set is the best I have seen, if you can find one. With that many teeth, you'll need an almost imperceptible set, .002 to .003 overall.
I have a handy guide which holds the file at a preset angle. If I can find the time, I'll post a pic.
One of those headset magnifiers is real handy, especially with teeth that fine.
18 TPI is awfully fine, but will work. I prefer around 12 because it cuts faster and feels more positive. I have one with 15 TPI, and it's noticeably slower, with no realimprovement in cut.
Michael R
Here's the pic I metioned. Saw. saw vise, a couple of sets, a couple of file guides, and a magnifier (for those over 400.
I think I've got about $50 invested, not counting the saw and magnifier. It takes a while to recondition a saw, but maybe 15 or 20 minutes to touch up a little tenon saw like this one. Certainly less time than it takes to send one out.
And of course, they only go dull when you're in the middle of something......
Michael R
Michael
Where did the angle setting jig coe from? Chain saw store? Looks like a good way to learn
BTW Tried resharpening a dovetail saw to rip tooth config yet? Makes 'em cut even better
Scrit
Scrit,
Picked them up at flea markets for about $5 each, here in the Midwest. You're in the UK, right? I'll Email you when I run across another, if you like. They are handy, although I usually use mine for reconditioning old saws. When touching up with a couple of strokes per tooth, I can usually do OK by hand.
All my saws that cut into end grain are filed rip tooth. The saw in the picture has a 10" blade, and I use it for fine crosscuts. It has about 15 TPI. which is a little on the fine side for any kind of ripping.
Michael R
Michael
Yessir, up in the Pennines (north of England). That would be super, thanks for the offer. It's only the reconditioning bit that gives me the problems, as you say, once you've got the saw sharpened and set it doesn't take much to keep it sharp and cutting well.
Regards
Scrit
Just curious what you guys do when you get too much set on the teeth? I bought a cheap crown tools gents saw that works acceptably after I ground most of the set off the teeth. I put them to a coarse sharpening stone and swiped the sides of the saw against the face of the stone a few times. This was recommended to me at a class I took by someone who seemed to know what he was talking about.
Tom
When I sharpen saws I use about half the set called for on the sawset.
And when I need to remove set I simply tap it out with a brass hammer using a thick copper plate as an anvil....and then reset to what I want.
Edited 11/26/2003 12:59:54 PM ET by Bob
Biff,
I wouldn't spend $125 for a dovetail saw, myself... there's a fine little saw, German I think, red handle, blued blade, brandname something like Eberle(?) -- sells for $12-15 last time I looked -- when it gets dull, replace it and use the blade for scrapers or scratchstock cutters or whatever -- this way you'll have another 100 bucks to buy stock to learn on: cutting a whole lot of dovetails will make you good at this, not putting a huge amount of $$ into a fancy tool...
"there's a fine little saw, German I think, red handle, blued blade, brandname something like Eberle(?) -- sells for $12-15 last time I looked -- "
That's the Eberle Blitz, and they really remarkable considering how cheap they are. There are also excellent cheap dovetail saws made in Germany by Kunz (as used by James Krenov) and Sandvik (there used to be Ulmia, too, but that's another story). These are under $25 where I live in the UK, so they must be cheaper in the States. As I have said elsewhere I bought a "set" of 5 saws for less than the price of a SINGLE L-N (although they have taken some time to tune), so whilst the L-N and for that matter the Adria, too, is good, is it that good? (Forgive me, Welsh blood, natural parsimony showing through again...)
I agree with the comment about learning to sharpen your own - saves time and money - and stops you from having to deal with the cowboy sharpening shops who chop off 1/4in of blade and just file new teeth each time.
Scrit
Edited 11/23/2003 4:28:02 PM ET by Scrit
I have the LN and to me it was worth every penny.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Biff,
This question arises from time to time both here and on other forums. It seems that ultimately one is faced with shelling out some big $$ for a Lie-Nielsen, or going with a used saw. For the latter, folks always recommend contacting Tom Law, one of the premiere saw doctors in the US. One can buy a new or used saw and send it to him for sharpening (Some recommend doing so for even a new LN!) or buy one from him directly. (Guess he restores used saws then resells them.) If interested, you can contact him at:
Tom Law
62 West Water St
Smithburg MD 21783
(301) 824-5223
Edited 11/23/2003 11:08:24 AM ET by Jeff K
Might as well get an L-N, that way there will be no excuses.
The first dovetail saw I ever used was the little Stanley jobby that you can buy virtually anywhere. The dovetails I cut with that saw were as well executed as anything cut later when better economic circumstances allowed me to buy a 'better' saw.
If you're not the type of craftsman that tends to blame his tools, you might consider a less expensive saw - Lynx and Pax gent's saws are in the $30 range and certainly good enough. If when you make a mistake or are unable to execute a woodworking joint you tend to blame it on your tools instead of your own lack of skill, then buy a 'good' saw.
Edited 11/23/2003 11:37:38 AM ET by BossCrunk
A gent's saw looks like it would be perfect for dovetails, but I find them really hard to control, with their little round handles. I only use one for very small cuts -- never on joinery of any kind.
A traditional pattern back saw lets you use the whole width of your hand to control the saw and I find them much easier to use, with a much more relaxed grip. You also have a much wider blade to sight along.
Michael R
I've cut them with both with not many problems. I like being able to extend my index finger down the back of a gent's saw - I really choke up on one when cutting dovetails.
Most woodworkers end up using what they happened to buy the first time - if somebody has enough money to buy several saws and settle on the handle style they like the most then more power to them.
The indisputable fact is that perfectly lovely joints can be cut with either style saw.
My pat answer to these questions is to buy an L-N because it is a fine saw and it DOES eliminate any chance of blaming the tool for poor results.
Eddie Sirotich in Vancouver, Canada handmakes custom dovetail and tenon saws. I happen to own a complete set and they, in my opinion, rise above any other joinery saw available today (new or used)! Eddie stands behind his fine product with a one year guarantee.
http://www.adriatools.com
I guess my favorite saw for dovetails is a small 8" English back saw (W. Tysack and Sons) which I purchased for around $30 in the 1980s. However, I've cut dovetails with all sorts of saws with good results. I few years ago, when I was teaching a beginning woodworking course at the local university, I brought in a dozen different saws for the students to try out on their first dovetails. They used them all (back saws, gents saws, bow saws, japanese saws, etc.) and by the end of the day most of the students had produced an acceptable, if not perfect, dovetail joint. Personally, the only saws I have problems with are the very thin razor type saws which seem to flex too much in my hand.
Chip
I've tried a Freud, I've tried japanese saws, I've had saws sharpened professionally. None of them compares to the L-N in my humble opinion.
I have a L-N gents saw, and love it, but for my tenon saws, they are all pre-WWII Disstons, sharpened by Tom Law, and they are elegant as well. One is not better than the next; the steel is about the same. The L-N's are machine set, and the result is a bulge at the bottom of each tooth. This bulge intereferes with the stroke. When resharpened twice, this is gone, and the improvement is vast. Tom Law does wonders with a saw. $10 to sharpen, $5 to set, $10 to cut new teeth (change an 8 tpi to a 14 tpi, for example), and he does electric rust removal as well. I think a complete tune up is $30 or so.
The older Disstons have handles of apple; during and after WWII they went to beech. Look for the apple handle, or go to Disstonian institute.com and that fellow helps you call the age by the markings, etc.
Alan
I've had all my saws sharpened by Tom Law, and he's even sold me an old saw where I had a "gap" in the collection I inherited from my grandfather. My tenon saw is a very old saw that Tom re-cut. I swear by him and really have a hard time understanding why more people don't use handsaws.
Hi Biff,
I purchased a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw a few montha ago !! It is well worth the price, it truly is a peice of art in itesl.
I plan to puchase their tenon saw too.
Good luck!!
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