Well, my wife convinced me to post these because I wasted the entire weekend on one drawer. I’m rather new here and these are my first attempts at hand-cut and chiseled dovetails. I purchased some planes from Lie Nielsen a couple years ago and started hand planing/dimensioning boards and when I felt comfortable enough I purchased some LN chisels a few months ago and finally got up the nerve to try some dovetails. They aren’t perfect, but I was proud enough to post them as a starting point. I went with a 1:6 pitch on them and could have made the pins thinner and with a 1:7 pitch but didn’t know if I’d be steady enough with the saw. Mahogany and aspen with the front beaded with a LN beading tool. Started with the half-blind and then did regular ones in the back. Man, the regular dovetails sure went quick compared to the fronts!!
-Matt
Replies
First attempt eh? You make me sick. That green glow around my face and the grinding of my teeth are only a reflection of my response to your pictures.
sir:
I only wish my first attempt at handcut dovetails look as good.
Harry
Hi Matt,
That is very good for your fist set. I have been doing them for years now, and I think yours fit better than mine. Good Job!
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Thanks guys! I appreciate the comments...they have inspired me. I just need to actually complete a piece now! I think I'm on the homestretch though. The drawers are for a vanity in our bathroom which I'm close to finishing. I did get plenty of practice however with a mortise chisel and tenon saw for the frame and panel construction...so I guess those were my warmups for the dovetails.
You have a very bright future. Those are great.
Wow! I'm impressed. I've had recent success on test dovetails in preparation for making a set of drawers. Bet the dovetails on the drawers turn out terrible in comparison to my test efforts.
What saw do you use? I've been using an adria rip cut tenon saw, but find that the saw binds quite a bit even though I try to lighten it (two finger grip etc). I'm going with thinner drawer sides (3/8) so this may have something to do with the binding. I am doubling up the stock for the tails which I'm cutting first but still get the (Not intending to start a discussion on that issue)
Interested in your response,
Best regards,
Paul
Thanks Paul! I used a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw. Not sure why your saw is binding...it seemed the more I stressed about the joints, the harder they were to cut and I had to just relax and let the weight of the saw do the work. Does your saw have a strong back and fine teeth? I think that if I tried using my tenon saw on dovetails, the kerf would be difficult to control and it wouldn't register well to scribe lines. I was confused about your last sentence however. Are you cutting two drawer sides at once? If so, perhaps one of the boards deflects at a slightly different angle than the other while you're cutting. I'm sorry I can't be of more help but that's all I can think of. -Matt
"I've been using an adria rip cut tenon saw, but find that the saw binds quite a bit even though I try to lighten it (two finger grip etc). "
A few thoughts:
-- I'm not familiar with the adria rip saw, but if it's a decent saw, I doubt that has much bearing on your issue.
-- If you put a board in your vice as if you were going to cut dovetails, but instead of cutting to a line, you just make a "random" cut, straight down, about an inch long and perpendicular to the face of the board, does the saw still bind? If it does, you may well have a sharpening issue causing the saw to want to cut a curved line. This can happen if the teeth are set improperly or dull on one side of the saw. Or, more likely, you may not be moving the saw in a straight line.
-- Lightening the saw is helpful for starting the cut. But after that, you shouldn't need to worry about it. Using fewer fingers isn't going to help much. The idea is that you want to actually lift some of the saw's weight off the board, so the teeth only just lightly brush the surface at first. For me, I find it actually helps if I grip the saw tighter when starting so the saw's weight can't force it down with more force than I want.
-- In my experience, binding is usually caused by either a) a dull saw (see above) or, more likely, b) poor form, or c) trying to make the saw cut a curved line to correct the cut if it goes off line a bit.
-- Binding can usually be corrected by first teaching your body to move the saw in a straight line and then, teaching your body how to use that form to cut to a line.
-- You have about 1/16" at the beginning of the cut to get the saw "aimed". After that, it's just straight cutting, no correction. If you need to correct, you need to lift the saw up in the kerf and recut from the point things started going off.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
PS: Binding will actually be less likely in thinner boards.
Edited 3/13/2008 7:45 am ET by MikeHennessy
Mike has some excellent points! I was nervous to address form issues to Paul in the beginning as I don't have the amount of experience to do so but my first attempt is still fresh on my mind so I will draw upon that so what the heck. I didn't do any test cuts but did a ton of mortise and tenons because I went frame and panel crazy on the vanity carcass. With that said, my tenons are about an inch and a quarter long so I felt I had enough practice cutting to a line, square, straight, etc. In fact, I started cutting the tenons with the dovetail saw until I realized it wasn't aggressive enough and was running out of saw so I later purchased a large (rip) tenon saw for that task. When i went to cut tails into the soft aspen it seemed like nothing in comparison. The start of the cut is everything and I focused on that the most to make sure it was perpendicular to the face. I used my thumb to direct the teeth to the line and did a couple real light pull strokes as not to have the teeth "jump" across the end grain and once that kerf was established I lengthened the stroke of the saw. I also tried tilting the saw forward or back (can't remember) to start a corner and then direct the saw to the line but that didn't seem advantageous and opened up the corner too much making it sloppy. From what I learned from doing the drawer, the most important and what seems to be the most fundamental part of the process, is to be able to cut to a line.The other important part is layout and accurately transferring your tails to pins or vice versa. Everything else was removing waste and cleaning things up which just seemed time consuming.I purchased some Rob Cosman DVDs. I studied and studied them prior to doing the drawer. They are called Hand-Cut Dovetails and Advanced Hand-Cut Dovetails and they helped tremendously. Another one which I haven't seen is called Mastering the Dovetail Saw. I found them on lie-nielsen.com but I believe I saw them on woodcraft.com and Rob's website. Sorry for being wordy and probably repeating what Mike had said but I found that there are so many little nuances with dovetails that one can go on and on about it.
Hi mdh,Thanks you for sharing your experience. It's valuable to me. Your point about the aggressiveness of the saw is interesting. Not sure if you read my previous post, but I mad a correction that my saw is grabbing at the teeth rather than binding at the faces of the blade. My apologies as I'd had a long day at work and must have been more tired than I thought.I wonder if I have the opposite problem of the saw (13tpi) being too aggressive for the task. Interested in your thoughts.Paul
Hi Paul,
I just looked up the tooth configuration of my saw and it's 15 tpi. I don't know if I can visualize in my mind the difference between that and the 13 tpi. My tenon saw is 10 tpi and so I do notice a difference between that and 15. I think that starting the (tenon) saw takes a little finesse as it does catch when the teeth are forced into contact with the wood and can lock into the wood where the teeth have punctured the wood so I think starting a cut takes a very light touch with no downward force but can gradually increase as the fibers are pushed forward. The Lie Nielsen progressive pitch saw intrigued me when I just now went to the website to look up the tpi of mine. The teeth start out finer toward the front and become larger toward the rear. It seems to me, that in principal, this would aid in getting the saw going and then picks up in cutting speed. I am definitely not the one to take the liberty to say buy a new saw as I have nothing to compare my saws to other than my tenon saw to my dovetail to my crosscut carcass, etc. but I do notice a difference between the tenon to the dovetail as they are intended for different purposes with different tpi.Anybody else have experience with different saws?Thanks,
Matt
Hi Mike,My apologies, as I must have been more tired than I thought when writing the email. I believe that I have used the incorrect terminology. The saw teeth are grabbing as I cut, rather than the faces of the blade binding in the kerf.The saw is actually great and very sharp. I'd recommend these saws to anyone. I have no problems making straight cuts with it and only find that it grabs when I try dovetails. My test dovetails are actually coming out quite reasonable, but the sawing is not a smooth operation, when it grabs, as I believe it should be (From watching experts on videos).The teeth of the saw are filed for rip, they're sharp and it's 13tpi.I am guessing that this is pilot error as I don't have any of the grabbing when making other cuts. Or it may be that you would all recommend a higher tooth count for this operation in 3/8 thickness lumber (3/4 when two pieces are cut together)I think that mdh may have a point about stressing too much and that may be what's throwing me off.I'm also going to try mohod's wax on the side of the saw. I'll probably use a little beeswax as that's what I use on my plane soles and my larger handsaws. It certainly can't hurt.Many thanks for all of your responses and good day to you all.Best regards,
Paul
Ah. Grabbing is indeed different from binding. IME, grabbing can be caused by starting improperly or cutting too slowly. Under these conditions, the teeth can make indentations in the work, like a file pattern. The teeth then get caught in these, and that makes things even worse as the saw skips over them on each successive stroke. Often, folks trying to follow a line are being "too careful", and that just makes things "worser". It could be that you just need a bit more practice. Try making one DT set a night, say four pins wide, on some 4" wide scrap. Just go quickly, not worrying about trying to be exactly accurate. I'll bet that within a week, you'll have it down.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hi Mike,Thank you for the response. I shall take your advice. I do suspect user error and I agree that it could be that with the Dovetails I'm trying to be too careful. I should probably figure out the grabbing problem then refine the accuracy. I'll be cutting tonight I'll try to cut a little faster too see the difference. Starting the cut hasn't been too much of an issue. I'll keep you informed of the progressBest regards,
Paul
Hey Mike,Just made a set of cuts. Faster with the saw, much less grabbing, much more accurate, flows much better. I'll practice some more.Many thanks,
Paul
There ya go! "Be the saw." Ooohhmmm.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I don't know how that can be considered a waste of time. You had fun, right? You also ended up with a beautiful hand crafted drawer with superb joinery. And you learned and gained experience. The end result is something to be proud of. Did you saw to the line or clean up the sides of the pins/tails with a chisel afterwards.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris, I did have fun, although it was extremely nerve-wracking. I guess it wasn't a waste of time as it was a learning experience but was a lot of time compared to the experienced. I'm a medical illustrator by profession (draw body parts and surgical procedures for medical books) so I like challenges and can appreciate precision handiwork.I cut to the scribe line for the pins grazing away the line. I came back with the chisel to slightly pare a bevel to the leading edges of the unexposed region of the tails to ease the tails down so that they would seat better and to not mar the pins. I test fitted a little at a time and did pare some high spots lightly of either pins or tails without trying to change the geometry of them. The aspen seemed to work well because of it's softness and was able to kind of squeesh between the pins and seemed somewhat forgiving...if that makes sense. I did have some issues throughout the process such as:
The first day, I did my first side. It turned out well. The following day, I went to do the other side and the the board cupped visibly. I had just planed it down to it's dimensions the day before from 4/4 to between 1/2-5/8 range which is kind of a lot to remove. I tried to remove equal amounts from one side to the other but it was hard to judge by hand planing. Does a board want to spring out of flatness when nearly half of it's surface is removed or is it more of stock/grain selection? Anyway, I had to re-flatten.The other issue was once it was assembled I tried to plane the pins and tales flush late last night but there was a lot of chatter with the plane, probably due to the lack of support under the sides? I think one of my videos shows sliding the drawer bottom out and making some support jig to throw into the vice with the drawer to plane the sides. Does anyone have a solution?Thanks,
Matt
I think what happened with your board is that after planing it down, you laid it flat on the workbench. Then, because it was not in moisture equilibrium with the humidity level in your shop, the top surface either absorbed moisture (cupping downward at the sides) or gave off moisture (cupping upward at the sides).
You can mitigate this sort of thing by doing a couple of things:
After removing a lot of stock from the surface of a board, either leave it on edge or stack it with stickers in between, so that both sides are equally exposed to the air.
Whenever you need to remove a lot of wood from the surface, do it in two stages. Remove the bulk of the wood, let it acclimate for a few days (during which time it is likely to move slightly, no matter how careful you are), and then resurface to final dimensions.
All of this is much less of a problem with quartersawn stock, which is the stock of choice for drawer sides and backs.
-Steve
Edited 3/13/2008 1:50 pm ET by saschafer
Thanks Steve! That is very helpful advice! I ran into a similar problem when I planed down the panels of mahogany for the same piece and should've adjusted accordingly for the drawer. On future drawers I will have to keep in mind using quarter-sawn sides too. Are there many secondary pale woods out there that are readily available in qarter-sawn?-Matt
You can get fairly wide boards of soft maple or poplar relatively inexpensively. They're not quartersawn all the way across, but they often have "regions" near the edges that are sufficiently close to quartersawn that you can cut narrower pieces for drawer sides.
-Steve
Another good tip, Steve! Thank you. I know what you mean about the growth rings wrapping around toward the edge plus that method might be cheaper than buying stock labeled as quarter-sawn too.
Matt,
The compression factor is often not taken into account when cutting fitted joints like dovetails or finger joints. Planing one side of a board more may cause the board to warp if the moisture content is not even throughout. The other possible cause, as Steve pointed out, is unequal air movement. I usually use a low-angle block plane to trim the joints, always cutting from the edge towards the center to avoid blowout. A shallow depth of cut and momentum along with a well-tuned plane makes trimming easy.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thanks Chris. I did exactly what Steve said could have been the problem and that was laying the boards flat on the bench after planing and leaving there. Didn't even think about it since I was coming back to them the following day or two. I did make sure my drawer sides' grain ran from front to back to make things easier when cleaning up the joints. I will have to try a low angle block plane on the joints now that you mentioned it. It would probably help when hitting the end grain on the pins vs my 4 1/2.
Look Good to me!
They look pretty good to me.
I don't have a dovetail machine. The bane to me is deciding on positioning of the damned things. I mean like, how many tails, and how to space them.
How do you go about it?
Edited 3/13/2008 2:17 pm ET by blewcrowe
Hi,
OK, here's the artist in me coming out and definitely not some veteran woodworker! When I look at dovetails with contrasting woods I think of it as positive and negative space when viewing light against dark. That ratio is limitless and is what's pleasing to you. Often times repetition of odd numbers is more settling to the eye, therefore I went with an odd number of pins. The visual weight of the drawer might also have an influence on the proportions and dimensions. I guess if I were to attempt half-blind hounds tooth dovetails, I would save it for a one-drawer piece like a one drawer candle/lamp stand where the drawer is the highlight and not do them on some huge chest of drawers where it might be visual overload to see all those. So, I guess, I would sketch out dimensions and proportions for what is aesthetically pleasing. I would think that most people that hand-cut their joints, would veer away from "router-like" proportions also as long as it's structurally strong. As I stated in my earlier post, I think if I felt more comfortable, I would have made mine with finer pins and slightly less of the mahogany strip toward the front of the side. After all that rambling I did, I'm not sure if you meant how to determine spacing or how to actually do it. You can use rulers, templates, or step calipers across to leave marks.Thanks,
Matt
Well, for as long as I've woodworked (basically my whole life, over fifty years) I've not done much in the way of dovetails. Always found them daunting.
When I get into that situational need I'll use laps or lockjoints or spline locked tenons or various other methods, if I can get around the dovetails. People keep telling me it's easy, but it's something I look at and get confused with.
I'm good at tools, just slow to understanding certain types of techniques. What I really need is to take a course on it (if one were offered locally, which it isn't).
Anyway, your stuff looks good. Congrats.
Thank you everyone for the continuous comments and advice/tips. I've poked around on this forum here and there for a few years sponging up whatever knowledge I can and reading as many books as I can on woodworking. It wasn't until this post, that I actually had something to post. It wasn't a complete piece of furniture (as I don't have one yet) but just an element of one. So, it was very exciting to receive positive feedback. I'm just nervous now to do the other drawer just hoping it will go as smoothly or hopefully better. Anytime it seems like smooth-sailing something very humbling comes up during the process but then again it's part of learning.Thanks again,
Matt
Matt,
When ya first rode a bike, any bunps and bruises? How about waterskiing? Shot your first gun, did ya hit the bullseye every shot?
The paving of practice will smooth the road, in this case the slope!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/14/2008 10:30 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Looks Awesome to Me :)
-rarebear-
http://www.rexmill.com My Hand Plane Resource
M
If those are truely your first dovetails, and we'll assume you'll only get better, they're impressive.
Regards,
Sean
I hate you...;) They look great. Wish my first attempt (and last for quite some time) was anywhere near that good. Keep it up. I'll stick to my Keller jig for now.
Brian
Those are some damn fine dovetails there.
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