Hello to all fellow artists and craftsmen, and women of course 🙂 I’m new here, but i joined so i could ask a simple question. I am about to start building a chair, and i want to use some through dovetails for some of the joints. I am aware that it would be quicker to use a router, but I love hand tools and want to use a Japanese saw and hand cut them. Can anyone tell me how to start, and how to lay them out>?
thanx, Mark
Replies
Mark... a very good question, one that comes up fairly frequently. I don't mean to put you off, but because it's been covered in some detail in lots of prior posts, the real pros may not be up to re-writing the detailed instructions they've written in the past. You might want to try doing a search first, using the "Advanced Search" option and being sure to include "All Forums" so you'll get the archived postings, too.
I did a search and found hundreds of responses and dozens of threads. Here's one that includes a very good set of instructions from Sgian (post #2 in the thread). Just click on the link:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages/?msg=7978.4
(P.S. The dovetailing information I found on this forum a couple of years ago was VERY helpful when I did my first handcut set, so you should definitely take the time to explore.)
David
Thanx Dave, I'll give it a shot!
Hi, I'm not completely up on all the terminology, but where the legs meet the seat, the part thats under the seat and supports the legs around the outside, I think its called the apron>? Thats where i'm putting the dovetails instead of 45 -ing the corners. I hope this helps. I know i need to polish up on terminology, i just visualize something i like and build it :) Thanks for any help you can offer!
mark
Peter Korn's book, 'Working with Wood', published by Taunton has an excellent tutorial on laying out and cutting dovetails, along with equally good sections on other basic procedures.
Mark,
Welcome to the world of woodworking and, apparently, furniture making. I second the suggestions here that you are starting out on one of the most difficult kinds of projects for a beginner. I think that you are misunderstanding not only terminology, but construction mechanics also. Please don't take that as a negative. I don't mean at all to temper your enthusiasm to get started.
I recommend "Chairmaking & Design" by Jeff Miller, The Taunton Press, as an excellent reference for you (or anyone) interested in chair making. It will guide you from elementary considerations through several styles and complexity of chairs. All by a master and clearly and beautifully illustrated and photographed.
Rich
Thanx for the tip, i'll definitely check the book out before i start construction. I'm not a complete beginner, i've worked in a lumber yard and cabinet shop for seven years and had a few woodworking classes. I've made a few pieces that have all turned out well, but i have never made a chair or used dovetails. I'll try and let you know how it goes, and polish up on my terminology and knowledge daily i hope.
thanx again! mark
Mark, to second Rich's book recommendation: I've taken a couple of classes from Jeff Miller, including his chairmaking class where we make the slat-back chair that's in his book. Although I'd highly recommend taking Jeff's classes, his book is a very, very good substitute if you can't work with him in person. The chapter on the slat-back chair follows his workshop instructions very closely.
DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
Mark,
What Dave said about searching back through Knots is a good idea. There's lots there.
Having personally read just about every dovetail book out there, the only one I think even worth a damn is Ian Kirby's, The Complete Dovetail. It's at Amazon for $10.47 currently. Read the book, try his method, then develop your own.
Then just simply start practicing cutting in a straight line. I used to treat it as "exercise", cutting a 100 3/4 inch kerfs a day. It may sound stupid, but I can keep to a line with no problem. That skill can have a lot of use in other areas too.
Tim
P.S. While I know your hot on the idea of using this in the chair (which I would have my reservations about), try making a few boxes for around the house first. They come in handy and it's good practice.
Edited 9/20/2002 9:44:47 AM ET by Tim Sams
Why would you not want to use dovetails in a chair>? I'm not as "amateuristic" as i sound, I just like trying out new things and I've never built a chair or used dovetails, so i am completely open to suggestions to keep from landing on my butt so to speak!
mark
Mark,
I am unclear how your planning on attaching the legs to the apron. If you're considering dovetailing an apron into the leg (which I don't think you are), then don't. Use a mortise and tenon to attach an apron to a leg. Dovetails are strongest when they are end grain to end grain.
Rich's recommendation for Miller's book is a good one and is probably a good place to start to get some construction ideas to make what you want. Have fun.
Tim
Thanx Tim! No, I'm not attatching the apron to the leg with dovetails, the apron is going around the outside of the legs, end grain to end grain. I'm going to use my own idea of wood pins and bracing under the seat to hold the legs in place.
Thanx, mark
Mark,
" I'm going to use my own idea of wood pins and bracing under the seat to hold the legs in place."
Have fun. But I strongly encourage you to read the book I mentioned, or any other book about chair construction.
You are re-inventing the wheel. Which is OK if you like doing that kind of thing. The path you are following is common for some who are new to a craft or a particular aspect of it.
Chair construction has evolved based on the natural laws that determine joint strength. While there are many variations of some basic principles, the basic principles always hold true.
Like I said, have fun, we never learn if we don't make mistakes. But we also learn by standing on the shoulders of others who have traveled the path first.
Rich
Mark,
If I understand you correctly, the dovetailed apron will require a compound cut? There was an article in the last issue of FWW last month that showed a simple way to accomplish that...I failed miserably, of course, but it at least looked simple...:)
Tim, on your advice I picked up a copy of Ian Kirby's book today. I'll let you know if I hate it <grin>. Seriously, I've enjoyed the dovetails I've cut by hand so far, and I think they're fine for my level of experience, etc., but I'd like to get better.
On the other hand, I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread, but my philosophy regarding dovetails is to use them if they're the best, strongest joint for the purpose/piece. Decorative effect (which is important, to be sure) is secondary to having a secure joint. I love 'em, love the look... but can often tell when they've just been done for show.
Others will differ with that opinion, I'm sure.
DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
David, Interesting comment. Are you wanting to open up a debate on the utilitarian versus artist thing again, ha, ha? I'm trying to work out what's wrong with doing things with decorative intent. Taken to a logical conclusion of some sort, we could sit around and eat at a table on old upended tea chests or old machinery crates, so there's really no need to attempt to design and build a functional, and decorative, dining chair. Slainte.Website
"Are you wanting to open up a debate on the utilitarian versus artist thing again, ha, ha?"
G_d, no! Not only do my own opinions vary depending upon the time of day (that wimpy shot across the bow in my prior post notwithstanding), my attendance on this (and any other) forum is just erratic enough to guarantee that anyone who responds with a strongly-worded defense of anything will likely have to fume for several days before I get back online!
Taking the Buddhist middle way -- or sitting on the fence (however you choose to read it) -- I should clarify and say that I appreciate both form and function. In my own, limited work so far I generally try to find... not a balance, per se, but a "complementary" relationship or cooperation between the two.
OK... back to yes/no questions... <grin> Oh, and FWIW, I haven't even considered going into the "Artist vs...." thread. Are you kidding?! :-)
David
Hmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
Edited 9/26/2002 10:30:42 AM ET by davamoore
David,
I think Richard's comments are interesting though I have no interest in a discussion like the "Artist" thread in the Cafe. I think to each his own, really. I know when I first learned to cut them by hand, I was putting them in everything just because I could (though that coffee mug really didn't work out too well...).
I've found now that I don't default to it unless it's really needed, but nevertheless, I still like the look of them. I know many of the period furniture makers simply saw it as a functional joint and (from what I've read) thought exposed joinery was not necessarily the the pinnacle of craftsmenship.
That changed of course, and particularly in A&C and Shaker furniture, I think exposed joinery is done with a lot of taste. I think the case could be made that exposed joinery there was a design element as well as a structural element.
Tim
Hi Mark,
Here's 2 threads that may be of use.
Thread 6716.1
Thread 7126.1 <--- link in this thread with pictures on cutting dovetails
I know that Dano or Don Brown did a thorough 'treatise' on cutting dovetails by hand, just can't find it. Correction -
Thread 7180.1 &on <---------- Try this one first
Cheers, eddie
Thanx for the tip, it looks just like what I was looking for ---mark
Mark,
FWIW, here's the link that Eddie mentioned: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=7180.3
Dano
Thanx Dan, its what i was looking for---mark
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