i just learned how to sharpen chisels after many years of working mainly with power tools. it’s interesting that it took that long to realize that working with sharp hand tools is quite a bit different than relatively dull ones. now i think it’s time to buy and learn to use a hand plane. my first plan is to get one for trimming dovetails, dowels and the like. any recommendations as to type and brand?
Replies
Hi, I'm much, much too inexperienced to offer advice on what you should start with but I can hardly resist sharing my.... experience, for what it's worth. I've been buying a few tools, improving my selection of tools with some better quality tools. I read up on planes and came to the conclusion that Lie-Nielson planes are probably the best new planes available, but they are very expensive... and after buying a plane you might find your self researching options for sharpening your blades, and might as well thing about sharpening those chisels too.... oh my goodness... waterstones, vararible speed grinders, Scary Sharp techniques... where will it all end? As I said at the start, I don't have any expertise but there is one thing that I can swear by.... I bought a Veritas low-angle smoothing plane for about a $100+ less then I would have paid for a Lie-Nielson, and a second (38 degree) blade which makes it more versitle... and it cuts soooooo beautifully, in soft and hardwood. And, a 1/4 turn of the adjustment knob makes a meaningful change in the size of the curl.. In the past, I've used various planes, and they have been useful, but I never imagined one could be such a pleasure to use. Thanx for the opportunity to say that.. paul
thank you for your input.
Congratulations on learning to sharpen chisels and on your desire to use more hand tools. You'll find it to be very rewarding, as there are many things that can be done with hand tools that either can't be done with power tools or are (IMO) more difficult than necessary with power tools.
Hand planes: many ways to go here. One way that I would not recommend is buying a cheap hardware store plane (this includes newly-manufactured -- after 1960 or so -- Stanleys). It will almost certainly require substantial tune-up, and will still only give you a mediocre tool, at best. You will find a "cheap" (as opposed to "inexpensive") hand plane to be mainly an exercise in frustration..... [Edit] This is not to say that a cheap plane cannot be made to work and sometimes even work well; just that it is probably more trouble than it's worth, particularly for someone who is just starting out using hand planes.
Another alternative is to buy old (pre-WWII) Stanley, Millers Falls, Sargent, etc., planes and, as required, tune them up. The main difference between the old planes and the cheap hardware store planes is that you will end up with a very nice to a superb plane with the older ones (this assumes that the plane was not damaged, was complete, and you did a competent job of tuning it up). Another good reason to buy an old Stanley, etc., is that they are relatively inexpensive. About $20 to $40 on eBay will net you a good-to-very-nice #4 user, for example; a bit more will get you a nice one from one of the antique tool dealers.
A third alternative is, of course, to buy a new plane. You can go with metal or wooden planes here. My recommendation would be a Lie Nielsen, mainly because I have experience with them. [Lee Valley/Veritas has a very good reputation, but I have no personal experience with their planes (I have used other LV tools, and they are superb).] [Clifton also makes nice metal planes, for roughly the same cost as the LNs.] This of course involves a fair amount of money, but you will get your money's worth, with a tool that is guaranteed for life, that works properly right out of the box, and from a company that has customer service that is some of the best in any industry. Another way to look at the cost is to compare the cost of the plane in terms of hours worked to buy it vs the cost of an old quality plane in terms of hours worked to buy it new in say 1904 or the 1920s.....
If you are interested in wooden planes, then you might take a look at Clark and Williams, Knight, ECE, and a couple of other makers. Again, modern wooden planes are going to be more expensive than most of the antique user-quality wooden planes will.
For what you initially want to use your plane for, I'd recommend either a fixed or adjustable mouth low angle block plane. The fixed mouth will usually be less expensive, but the adjustable mouth will be more versatile. If you decide to really get into using hand tools, you'll find the LA (adj mouth) block plane to be one of your most used planes/tools in your shop.
I must warn you that you are on the edge of a slippery slope: once you have used a nice, properly tuned hand plane, having just one will no longer be acceptable. You'll want/need one to do this, then another one to do that, then.... Soon enough, you will have a substantial collecti.. AHEM, COUGH, COUGH..."inventory" of hand planes. Then it will extend to other hand tools...such as saws, bit braces, chisels....it never ends..... ;-) (And there are plenty of people on this and other forums that will be more than happy to push you over the edge...SHOVE, SHOVE...) :-)
Before you spend any substantial amount of money on a hand plane or other hand tools, take a look through a couple of books: Garret Hack's Hand Planes, and Mike Dunbar's Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Woodworking Tools. Both of these books are loaded with useful information that will help you make good decisions on buying planes and other hand tools. John Walter's little blue book on Stanley tool prices will give you a good price range for any given Stanley tool listed in it. (The prices are a year or two out of date, but you can see what the current going prices are by watching eBay auctions for a week or so; they're generally in the ranges listed in the Walter book.)
Hope that this is of some use to you.
Cheers!
James
Edited 6/21/2006 7:12 pm by pzgren
Edited 6/21/2006 7:26 pm by pzgren
GM,
pzgren/James gives you plenty of choices. I will be more partisan and say that Lee Valley's block planes are the best price/value of the classier modern planes available on the market. I've been using a Lee Valley standard angle block plane for 3 months now to do the sort of things you mention (and other work) and am well-impressed. No doubt the LN and Clifton are as good but the LV costs less.
But you needn't take my word. Have a look at the FWW article on block planes, if you have access to the extended info on this site. Otherwise, look up block planes in the index on this site, to get the FWW issue that their block plane comparison test was in.
FWW liked the price and finish of the LV but also the slightly improved design over the other block planes. In particular, they liked the set screws that hold the front of the blade in place so that it can be adjusted more easily and does not slip under the pressure of a heavy swoosh. I hereby atest that this does indeed work well.
As James points out, one gets the plane bug and (from being a machine tool-only chap) now I have a list of the damned things........(not to mention better chisels, some handsaws and other money-eaters). Doh!
Lataxe
As was sugegsted to me, get a 4 1/2 smoother to start. I got a Veritas (Lee Valley), and never looked back. It's a great tool. I have lots of respect for Lie Nielsen tools, but as a first plane to test the waters, the price of the Veritas is hard to beat. You'll be happy with eaither brand.
I would also recommend the Veritas Low Angle Block Plane. It's sweet, is talked about highly by it's users, and of course has been rated very high on various tool tests.
A good DVD is Hand Planing and Sharpening by Rob Cosman from LN. He covers the basic of planes, and sharpening. There are also some really good books out there.
I'm sure you'll get lots of recomendation to buy an old stanley plane and tune it up. In my opinion the advice is comparable to handing a non-musician a dirty old guitar and asking them to tune it; they'll eventually get it tuned, but there will be lots of frustration in between. The learning curve is steep enough that you shouldn't have to worry about how to get some rust off the palne first. However once you decide if hand planing is for you this is an affordable way to add to your tool set.
Buster
Buster,
<<I'm sure you'll get lots of recomendation to buy an old stanley plane and tune it up. In my opinion the advice is comparable to handing a non-musician a dirty old guitar and asking them to tune it; they'll eventually get it tuned, but there will be lots of frustration in between. The learning curve is steep enough that you shouldn't have to worry about how to get some rust off the palne first. However once you decide if hand planing is for you this is an affordable way to add to your tool set.>>
Good points. Needing to tune-up an old Stanley picked up at an auction or a yard sale certainly can turn into another exercise in frustration.
I'm of the opinion -- as you appear to be -- that one needs to first know how a "good" plane works, how it feels, how it sounds, etc., to be able to really tune-up an old plane, test it on a piece of wood, and to know that you have gotten it right. In other words, you have to know what "right" looks (feels, sounds, etc.) like.
I agree: the Cosman DVDs are superb.
Cheers!
James
thanks to all who responded so passionately and voluminously! it's a pleasure to be able to receive sound advice from my living room. i find conversations with woodworkers to be interesting and informative. it's really a field with some great people involved.
thanks again... i'm off to learn more...again.
I started out with a Simmons jack plane that had a stamped steel frog. I researched how to fettle a plane on the net and got it to cut some pretty descent shavings. This sent me down that well know slippery slope and I am now in an uncrontrollable free fall, so beware.
I now have a good collection of smoothers, jacks, fore, jointer, block and rabbet planes. I use the scary sharp method on a piece of 3/4" granite 18" square with a guide. My collection of chisels has grown as I found out what a really sharp one is capable of. They can pare off shavings just like a plane.
I find myself reaching for my gimlet to start screws before I reach for my electric drill because it is often quicker. I recently trimmed a paneled door in 5 minutes with an old stanley #7 jointer.
I find I like hand tools more and more and electric less and less.
sounds as though i may wind up with quite a selection of planes and hand tools. i expect there is probably some satisfaction in working that way.
i've been using sandpaper and glass to sharpen with an mk honing guide. two people have now mentioned this scary sharp method. what is that?
Scarey sharp is basically what you're doing. Using silicon carbide paper (using water keeps the dust down and helps it cut better), go from coarse (220 or 320 grit) for the edges that need squaring and elimination of chips or gouges, to 600 or 800, then to 1500 or 2000, then finer if you need or want to. 1500 grit will give you a mirror surface and good edge life. Too fine takes more time and, while it does hone to a finer degree, may not be necessary if you're planing softwood. I have a British made Bailey #4 with the original iron. I bought a workbench that was used in the local technical high school and the drawer fronts were covered in dings. I sanded the finish down to bare wood (shellac, using a RAS) and planed all 6 drawer fronts without any additional honing or sharpening. I also planed the legs. I generally touch up my irons with 1500 or 800 if they need more (and I can see the edge). You can use 3M spray adhesive to hold the paper down or water. The finer paper I use comes from Rockler in a multi-grit pack. When the sheet is toast, I peel it off and wipe the granite with mineral spirits before replacing with a new sheet.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
great, thanks!
I have a couple Lie Neilsons and a couple Veritas and all the Cosman DVDs.
I recommend all of the above, however
Although my favorite plane is the Veritas BU Smoother, primarily because it is easy to change bevel angles and sharped (no chip breaker), the Veritas bevel up planes are not good for shooting because either (as for the smoother) the sides aren't machined, or, because of the low profil the sides aren't tall enough to be stable on their side.
My LN 5 1/2 is a sweet plane, especialy for shooting, but sharpening, and in particular adjusting the mouth is a * major * PITA, requiring a screw driver, etc.. I also have a LN skew block plane, which is a seriously cool and useful piece of kit.
I suspect when I get a jointer, it will be a LN, because the Veritas BU jointer just doesn't look stable enough, and besides, the spread on the C $ means that for me LN are just a bit more expensive than Veritas so why go for 2nd best?
All this being said, people here tend to treat the 'what plane' question as religion. It seems if you favor one over the other you are a shill, or something, and if you buy a new plane, vs. an old one there is something wrogn with you to.
Personally, I can't be bothered find an old plane which may or may not have been abused and 'tuning' (which may mean rebuilding) it, when I can buy a perfectly new one off the shelf, and I don't even know if they had BU planes prior to WWII, except little block planes.
about brand names.i wish our fellow woodworkers focused more on technique and design than on brand names. i think anyone using hand tools will quickly discover it's more the user than the tool itself, provided that tool is properly tuned. we must understand that price doesn't neccessarily dictate a tool's quality. just as a tool's quality doesn't dictate a craftsman's skill.also, people tend to talk about blade bevel-angles in degrees, and claim certain planes work better with certain angles. while this may be true to an extent, its more of a range of angles rather than any one angle. certain blades tend to cut better and stay sharper at varying angles and its to your benefit to discover each of those angles required by each specific blade (including chisels). this may take place over the course of several projects, sharpening and adjusting/experimenting throughout. this little talked about technique may allow a once troublesome blade to hold an extremely keen edge for a longer time. david moore
David,
Wise words; but perhaps the reason for the preponderance of plane comparisons is simply because a first step for many is to choose one.
As a new plane user myself I would dearly like to get wisdom via Knots about how best to use the planes I've bought. Again there is a difficulty, as some things can only be fully taught via example and experience, rather than with a set of words (a manual).
Could I ask you, if you are an experienced plane user yourself, to have a go at summarising some basic rules/techniques for using a smoother? As I say, I am anxious to absorb wisdom on these matters in whatever form it comes. It might be an interesting experiment to see if some form of skill can be passed via a forum like this......?
Lataxe, plane novice.
Well said ...
David,
<<about brand names......i wish our fellow woodworkers focused more on technique and design than on brand names. i think anyone using hand tools will quickly discover it's more the user than the tool itself, provided that tool is properly tuned. we must understand that price doesn't neccessarily dictate a tool's quality. just as a tool's quality doesn't dictate a craftsman's skill.>>
You make a couple of good points here. I agree with you that it is the craftsman that makes the difference, not (necessarily) the tool. But, I'd like to toss out a couple of ideas for your consideration:
1. Brand names are one of the best indicators of quality available. Brand names -- such as LN or LV, for example -- have gained their individual reputations precisely because they have been manufactured to a given level of consistent quality that meets (the majority of) their customers' needs, and at a price that those customers are willing to pay.
2. The tool alone certainly will not guarantee high quality work, but one of the things that a good quality tool will do is allow the craftsman to do the best work that he is capable of at that time, without having to fight the deficiencies of the tool. For someone that is just beginning to use hand tools, specifically hand planes (such as the OP), having a decent quality tool is, IMO, an important part of learning how to use that particular (type of) tool effectively and efficiently; a good quality tool will let the (new) user see what "right" looks like. Once one has learned what "right" looks like, then it makes a lot more sense to consider buying new or old tools that might require a tune-up, as one sees fit. (And the flip side of the preceding argument is that there is no better way to get to know your newly-acquired tool than to give it a thorough cleaning and tune-up.....) [When it comes down to it, I don't think we are all that far apart on this point.]
_____
As far as technique vs brand names vs bevel angles goes, I suspect that it is far easier to discuss brand names and bevel angles than technique, simply because of the level of detail required to walk someone through a particular woodworking technique in print. Even something as relatively simple as truing a board with hand planes requires a page or two of closely spaced type......
On a related subject, I find it amusing that there are some proponents of BU and other proponents of BD planes, who put forth the claim that their favoured style is the best of all possible worlds -- or some variation of that theme. And there are others that claim that a bevel angle of xº is better than yº, etc. My take on that is that there are some woods, planing operations, and techniques where a BD plane is the better choice, and others where a BU is the better choice; the required and most effective bevel (and iron bedding) angle largely depends on the wood and what you are trying to do to it. The knowledgeable-craftsman and intelligent-choice-of-technique part of this equation is knowing the difference, and that is, of course, gained primarily by experience. BUT, for those who currently lack (some of) that experience, there are forums, such as this one, where one can take advantage of the experience and knowledge of many others, and in the process of doing so, will get a wide range of experiences and opinions on what the "best" way to do something to a piece of wood is. [BTW: NONE of the "proponents" comments in this paragraph are directed at anyone who has posted in this thread up to this point!!!]
At any rate, I think that the several posters on this thread have given the OP a good deal of useful information for him to consider, while he is sorting out what kind of hand plane he wants to acquire.
Cheers!
James
Edited 6/22/2006 4:05 pm by pzgren
Edited 6/22/2006 4:12 pm by pzgren
Edited 6/22/2006 7:11 pm by pzgren
Go to flea markets or auction sales and buy a Stanley Bailey No 4 or 5. You can buy these for $20 to $40 in good condition and they have been the work horses in the plane family for many years. If you learn to sharpen , adjust and use them, you can always go to the expensive brands later.
For anyone interested, Woodcraft has L-N planes on sale, online.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I would suggest you consider a new Lie Neilsen No4, that is of course after the investment in suitable stones and honing wheels which is a whole new topic in itself. Having said that, I think it is well worth the investment of your timeRegards Kenneth-UK
Edited 6/22/2006 11:05 pm by kennthcooke
I have had incredible luck at auctions. Sometimes the auctioneer will hold up 2 or 3 items because it's late in the day and they want to end the sale before sundown. I found a Keen Kutter #5C at a pawn shop for $4.00. Needless to say I have a somewhat eclectic collection. Some are absolute junk; such as a #5 handyman which was sold with the #9 1/2 low angle block plane that I DID want. I have a couple of Bedrocks and a #10 1/2 rabbet plane for which I paid $50.00 for all three.
If I could afford to buy new I would buy new L-N. I haven't had the pleasure of using one but nearly everything I've read about them has been positive.
I recently used my #7c jointer to trim the bottom edge of a door so it would open and close properly. I could have had someone help me run it on my table saw but old #7 made short work of it. It was easier and quicker. I find it very satisfying to use hand tools more and you can get more control. It's slower but you have less chance of error as anyone who has misread the scale on a tablesaw can tell you.
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