I was working on a project and had never used a plane before. I started fooling around and had a plane that I had sharpened last year to try it out (a very old craftsman) but never got around to playing with it. I picked it up and found it did a very good job and was enjoyable to use. Not breathing the dust from the power sanding tools was a pleasant experience also. I know this plane was machine sharpened but not honed and I could tell that if I was to use it properly it would need to be sharpened better. My question is: After hand planing with a properly sharpened plane is there any sanding required? Are the Lee Neilson planes good or is there a less expensive brand that will suffice to start off with? Has anyone used a scraping plane and how good does it work? I may be calling the last one wrong. I mean a plane that the blade is on a reverse angle that a normal smoothing plane. Thank you in advance for your help and comments.
Tony
Replies
Lie Nielsen planes are excellent. I have five. Not being a purist, I use them right out of the box and they are fine indeed.
But you can get the same efficiency from a Stanley, or Craftsman, or any of the less expensive planes, but it requires work to set the plane up correctly. There is a set of books by Garret Hack that our sponsor sells. I have his handplane book and it answers a bunch of questions. Goto http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070659.asp
As far as sanding after planing, you be the judge. It is your craftsmanship you are presenting to the world.
_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
I am a relatively newbie on woodworking having started in ernest about 1 year ago. although I had two planes an old hand me down jack plane but a good old stanley low angle block plane, the first plane I purchased was the Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 smoothing plane. it is a thing of beauty, extraordinary craftsmanshipand performs exceptionally. They are very expensive but worth it.
but there clearly are some other very good planes out there. I will likely by the new veritas shoulder plane as they got good reivews and I really need one.
I am planning to buy a Lie-Nielesen jack plane soon!
That's my 2 cents worth.
spitfire
Tony...
Short answers are no, yes and yes (excellent)...
Remember that sand paper is a relative ankle biter compared to traditional hand tools; a well tuned plane will blow any power tool outa the water every time when it comes to quality of the finish. I can vouch for Lie Nielsen being excellent both in quality and performance; Veritas and Clifton are also highly praised. Scrapers in general come into their own on grain that refuses to behave with any other tool; they take a little time to master but they're worth sticking with for the quality of finish they can generate.
As for going with cheaper planes.. basically ya get whatchya pay for.. Old / cheap planes can be tuned to make em work better, but there's a ton of work involved to end up with something that could still end up as a door stop. Personally, I prefer to invest in tools that work... straight outa the box...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Tony,
Welcome to the addiction!! (to hand planes that is)
Glancing through the posts so far, I agree with all the info/advice given and would add only one thought.
I used to go right from the scraper to finishing and always had a bit of trouble with getting a nice sheen on oil type finishes. Recently I viewed a video featuring Frank Klautz (sp?). He recommends sanding with 220 after the scraper because he maintains that the scraper crushes the fibers slightly and prevents penetration of the finish into the wood. I have a project in work right now that will be a test case; jury's still out.
Frank is a highly respected, Hungarian trained, old world type cabinet maker and furniture restorer so I have some regard for his methods.
Regards,
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Tony,
I hate sanding. I try to avoid it as much as possible; and hand planes are the best way towards zero sanding that I've found.
Your next purchase, IMHO, should be knowledge. You've got to get firm ideas about which planes you will find useful, and why. Then you can begin shopping.
The Handplane Book, by Garrett Hack is a great place to begin, as is Planecraft, which you can find at Woodcraft and, IIRC, Lee-Nielsen. For learning about the appreciation and use of handtools generally, and quite a bit about planes, any or all of Saint Roy of Underhill's Woodwright's Shop books are a great source of information and are fun to read.
Learning about planes before you reach for your wallet will save you a lot of time, money and frustration.
Alan
My first plane purchase was a Buck Bros. el cheapo from HD. Non-ferrous casting for the sole, an iron that may have been made from steel, but I'm not sure. I tuned it up and made it work fairly well, but now I mostly use it in place of a scrub plane, taking heavy cuts to flatten boards. I later picked up some old planes - a No. 6 fore and a No. 8 jointer. They are wonderful compared to the BB plane. Since I don't own a jointer, they get used quite a bit. I also have a Stanley low angle block, a L-N low angle rabbet plane and a Stanley 79 side rabbet, which is great for adjusting a dado. The L-N is a joy to look at, to hold and to use.
Hi tony,
I for one prefer planning and scraping to sanding, although I do have random orbit and belt sanders. My plane collection belonged to my neighbor, and were bequethed to me after his passing. Being a professional carpenter, he kept them in excellent condition and I continue to do the same, considering that two of them date back to 1895. They are a Stanley Type 7 #6 Fore & a Stanley Type 6 #45 Combination. Absolute beauties, and they work like a charm!
Those daring young men in their flying machines!
Thank you for all of your replies. I almost bought a plane off e-bay over the weekend but lost the auction for a low angle block plane. I know this is one I am going to need. I will pick up the book that was posted as I will need more info before wasting money on stuff I wont need. Thanks again, I love this place!
Tony
We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
Once you use a top-quality handplane something goes "click" in your brain and you realize what everyone's been talking about. That definitely happened for me when I first edge-jointed boards with a handplane. Fast, easy, quiet, and a fit that can't be improved upon by any piece of motorized machinery.
Also, forget about rough sanding. A well-tune handplane will always be faster, quieter, and produce zero dust. The one exception would be where you have grain so wild that you just can't plane it.
With all that said, I would have thought that professionals would eliminate sandpaper altogether (or almost altogether), and use the final pass with the smoothing plane as the final prep before finishing. But then I see articles and posts here on Knots in which people like Franz Klausz talk about sanding after handplaning. I don't really understand it but I'm sure they know what they're talking about better than I do.
You can't plane everywhere. You can however sand everywhere. All your wood should be sanded or planed on an equal basis if you want an even finish. Sanding is an abrasive, planing is a shear cut and has a different affect on the pores of the wood thus making the finish (especially stain) take to the wood differently one from the other.
Hand Planes can be an obsesion... I have just passed the 300 mark and can probably put any profile to a stick by using a combination of the tools in my collection. The New made quality planes are excellent but expensive. Many of the old planes you can get on ebay quite cheaply can be highly tuned to match the best new planes performance in a few hours and tuning/ restoring an old plane can be incredibly satisfying. Also don't be a fraid to try an old wood body plane, when set up properly they are the most satisfying of the lot. Also anything on a wood bosied plane can be repaired on your bench. In any case get a copy of, 'The Handplane Book', you won't regret it... also answers all your questions about scrapers.
- Douglas
"It's time to stop Drinking and Dreaming and start Creating and Completing"
Jer,
Who sez ya can't plane everywhere? A true fanatic, like me, can plane everywhere!
I do all my dimensioning with planes, all my edge treatments with planes, I do all my fluting, reeding and beading with planes...I'll stop now; you get the idea: I work in an all hand tool area.
Alan
If the world's your wood, then plane away. I think it's great that you have the time for such endeavers. Give me some of that...
Jer,
Take it; it's all yours.
I didn't always work quietly. Twenty some years ago I had a gara...er...shop full of every power tool I could wrap my money around. But with all those things screaming at me, pitching saw dust into my eyes, and stalking me, eagerly waiting for a chance to cut my hands off, I wasn't enjoying wood working all that much.
When I built my boat I was compelled to use a number of hand tools. The light dawned--an epiphany! I had much more fun usuing nothing but hand tools. So now all the power tools are gone, and I again love working with wood.
The trade off, of course, is it takes me longer--sometimes much longer--to make anything. But that's fine too. The pleasure I derive comes from the process itself, not the end product. That a useful thing emerges is one of the perks, but not the primary aim of my avocation.
All it takes to make it so "the world's your wood" is a little time--and perhaps a slight reordering of priorities.
Alan
Edited 10/27/2004 7:30 pm ET by Alan
I agree more every time I set foot in the shop. Find myself annoyed that the power tools take up all that room; also, the dust. And the noise, the danger; oy, a new obsession. My poor, patient wife...
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
I agree 100% about the power tools vs. the hand tools. It's the time. When #2 flies the coop, there it will be.
How do you rip and crosscut panels and so forth? With a handsaw? Do you also crosscut with a handsaw and then square the cut with a handplane jig?
Also, do you take rough stock (bark, etc.) down to the finished product with handplanes alone?
Those are the tasks that save the huge amounts of time - the power saws and the power planer. I admit that I often hate using them because of the noise and danger.
I actually love using my drill press. Made in about 1900, it is all cast iron, quiet as a whisper.
MARKRODERICK,
To rip panels I use a frame saw; if the panel is too wide for my frame saw (this hasn't happened yet--after all, I glue up all my own panels) I suppose I would use my Stanley "shark tooth" saw. To cross-cut panels I use a cross-cut hand saw.
What I use to square the ends of a cross-cut panel depends on its width, but wide or narrow I use a Lee Valley low angle smoother. On narrow panels I use a shooting board; on wide panels I have to trust my much weakened eyes to split the line; even with my bedimmed eyesight I still do pretty well.
I don't buy rough stock--at least not so rough it's still clad in its bark. I usually get S2S, random width, rough planed stock, and take it to finished dimensions with hand planes. Depending on how much wood I have to remove, I begin with a scrub plane, then a jack, then a jointer, then smoother. Obviously, I start with tools farther along in that list the closer to the right dimension the wood comes from the mill: something that's within 1/8", for example, I wouldn't use my scrub plane, and maybe not my jack.
I could save lots of time by using machines. Even a power jig saw would save me time. But saving time isn't why I work wood. I work wood because I enjoy it, and I enjoy it more using hand tools. So why would I do something that shortens the time I spend doing it? That's truly the way I look at it.
There's more to it, of course. There are "fuzzy factors" as well:
I like the idea that I'm keeping alive old technology. I take some odd pleasure knowing that my hands are doing the same things, with the same kinds of tools, as all those other countless wood workers from long before.
I also work wood because I like the challenge of learning new skills. I enjoy training my hands and eyes to do things that don't come easily. I like learning, as you must when you use hand tools, the ways of the wood, and how make use of wood's properties.
Besides all that, there are certain sensual pleasures in actually feeling the wood give way to the tools held in my hands. The subtle sound and feel of a plane effortlessly taking wispy shavings is wonderful, and can't be duplicated with a power planer.
They're fuzzy factors indeed. I'm sorry I cannot explain them better.
Alan
Ever do any flyfishing? This discussion reminds me of the endless opposing views of the proponents of graphite fly rods vs those made from chinese Tonkin bamboo. There is something organic and affirming about fishing a cane rod; you can feel the fish through the wood, and you know that if you wanted to take the time, with practice and instruction, you could build your own rod. It's closer to the "chop wood, carry water" kind of philosophy that gives me a greater sense of belonging on this earth. Working wood with hand tools gives a similar sense of satisfaction.
That being said, if you try to take my bandsaw, you're in for a serious fight. OTOH, my jointer? The response you'll get is more like "Hey! That's mine and...and...Aw, he11, you can have it..."
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
CharlieD,
Where do you live? I'll come over and pick up that jointer, sell it and buy myself a couple LN planes! JK
I'm not a total hand tool purist but they sure are sweet to use!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
THIS jointer probably won't even get you a cup of coffee...what a piece...little bitty $200 Delta with the aluminum fence; hard to square, tables aren't flat, ay, ay, ay...
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Yeah, with that jointer I can see why you're so willing to part with it! LOL
I used a little 4" Delta "Homecraft" about 20 years. Sold it for $50 two weeks ago after getting my recycled, repaired 8" Rockwell up and running. It's a very sweet upgrade but still enjoy using my old Union 7C with the Hock blade from time to time.
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
MARK
I think you said well, and I agree. I set out to do woodworking with the whole historical thing in mind and while I usually have my local purveyor of lumber do most of my rough finishing I find much pleasure in solving how to do a problem with only the handtools. I find now I usually can crosscut a board and it is square, so no need to hand plane or modify it.
I built an addon apartment here for my mom to live in last year. Somewhere around here I have a pic (taken by my son) of me up on top of the rafters using my Stanley #5 to true up a rafter. When having dificulty getting the rafter to fit as I wanted it to, I told my son to go get my #5. He did, and after watching me for a while he said "Oh Gees, I gotta get a pic of this".
Point is, I love to use planes, and there are many places to use one besides furniture making. They are invaluable when putting up molding or hanging doors, installing cabints, etc, etc.....
If ya have em, and keep em ready for instant use, I guarantee you'll use em!
And, if you keep them looking good, you'll take great pride in them! :o)
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
I sometimes sand after planing; sometimes don't. It all depends on the results I am getting with the plane (based on wood species and grain behavior). As some have said here, if the grain is really wild and the plane/scraper combo stills leaves it a bit fuzzy; I'll finish up with 220 or the like.
I just finished an oak table and found that some of the planed surfaces took stain differently than the sanded areas. when using stain; I'll probably follow up with a few quick passes with paper to ensure uniform absorption of stain.
I will agree with others here that when the grain is agreeable and the tools sharp, a plane and/or scraper will leave a gleaming surface that cannot be improved with abrasives.
Tony:
I have two table tops in my small showroom in my shop used for showing my customers my furniture. On is sanded to 220, one is hand planed with my smoother. Both have the same finish on them. It's how I justify what I charge for my furniture, and the difference, side by side, is obvious. The joy of making shavings can be addicting. I have most of the Lie Nielsen's that are available, except for a few specialty tools which I have no use for. They are FANTASTIC!!! Out of the box, after you polish the blade, they are ready to go. Hope this helps!!
JC
JC,
What type of finish is on the two tops?
I'm a scraper addict and have done the demo for lots of people in this fashion. Take a strip of scrap about 18" long and about 2-3" wide; sand it however smooth you have patience for (at least 220) then cross-cut it in half. Scrape one half and hold the two pieces up side by side in a good light. The sanded piece looks very dull and the scraped portion looks glossy and almost polished.
The reason I ask about your finish is that recently I viewed a video in which Frank Klaus recommends sanding with 220 after scraping due to the scraper "crushing" the fibers of the wood. I always thought it sheared them but what do I know! I figure this applies to oil finishes but maybe to others. He's pretty well respected and makes his living doing this stuff so now I'm questioning my method of going right from scraper to finish.
Hope this isn't one of those "pins vs tails" or "Unisaw vs PM" things! LOL
Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, weird as it may sound, try sanding to 1500 or higher and THEN see which you like better. I have NO doubt that scraping looks better than sanding to 220, and that using a smooth plane looks better than scraping.
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
CharlieD,
Yikes! that's a lot of sanding!!! I have gone to 600 wet sanding with various oils but would prefer to do less sanding not more. I really like the idea of getting a finished (or almost) surface with an edge tool. I guess this is like so many things in WW'ing; just try it and see what works for you.
When I get back to the shop I'm gonna' try that test only using a scraper and a smoother. The best smoother I have ready to work right now is an old 4 1/2C tuned up with a Hock blade. I have a Mathieson stuffed smoother sitting up in the house waiting to be repaired and set up. It needs a new tote and honed is about all.
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
"Yikes! that's a lot of sanding!!! "
Y'know, you wouldn't believe how little extra time it takes, if the first pass--whatever grit was your largest--is done well. Prep with scrapers or smoothers. drastically shortens the job, too, and I'm not saying this looks better than scraped or planed, just different. One advantage is that sandpaper will fit any shape, like moldings and trim. It's hard to come up with a scraper for every shape. Scrapers get into corners way better than paper. I use all three, a lot.
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Yeah, I know what you mean; when I work up to 600, each step takes a little less time than the last. I guess by that theory you would eventually get to the step that took no time at all! LOL
I respect your commitment and patience in sanding your pieces to 1500 none the less!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack-
I finish almost all of my pieces with tung oil. After 48 hours drying time, I spray 4 coats of Crystalac water based spray finish, applied with a hvlp sprayer. (Wet sanding between coats of finish with 320, 440, and 600, in that order.) The polished look I get from my various smoothing planes, depending on species and grain variation, far exceeds the same finishing process with sand paper. I have several smoothers, mainly because I hate to stop and sharpen in the middle of smoothing a table top, or worse yet, a set of chairs. My Lie Nielsen 4 and 4 1/2 are most often used, and for real crazy burls, or figured curly cherry or maple (birdseye and tiger), I'll use my trusty Norris smoother. I must admit, though, that I try not to use it too much, as the original blade is about 65% gone. I also use my low angle jack plane from lie nielsen with a secondary bevel to give an effective angle of 47 degrees. I was shown that trick by a very well respected local craftsman and instructor, and it works wonderfully on tough grain.
JC
JC,
Thanks for the response!
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
JC,
Yoummight want to try the HNT Gordon planes on some of that tricky wood. Very good value for money and setup at a steep angle to handle the hard wavy grain on Australian Eucalypts. Also, the irons are reversible to act as a scraper (they are about 4-5mm thick and a single iron). I have not seen any reviews of their standard planes, but the shoulder planes always get very good reviews and there is generally a queue hanging about at wood shows to try them out.
http://www.hntgordon.com.au/
David
David- Thanks for your reply. I just bought the York frog for LN smoother, and I have a job I'll be starting shortly with bookmatched crotch walnut doors. I bought the frog with this job in mind. If I don't get satisfactory results, maybe I'll try one of those "Woodies". I'll let you know how it goes. I have a large scraper plane that I use when the smoothers don't. I don't know what my problem is, but for some reason I can't get the proper hook on scraper cards. I've tried so many times to the point of frustration. When I go see the guy who instructed me on chair construction, Jeff Miller, I bring them with me, and he holds me by the hand. Unfortunately, I've only been to his shop twice in the last two years. (By the way, anyone looking for instruction in the Chicago area, Jeff Miller is an outstanding craftsman and instructor, a quality I have come to learn is not prevalent in all who teach.) Thanks.
JC
I have both Lie Neilsen and Veritas (leevalley.com) planes. It's hard to tell the difference between the two. Lie Neilsen has more models to choose from. When comparing similar models, Veritas is less expensive and hard to tell the difference in quality, if any. The Veritas planes have some neat features that make setup easier. I have not had to flatten or otherwise tune up either vendors products. Just hone the blade and go to work.
Regards, DickB
Dick,
Veritas shoulder planes got good reviews. Do you have one? Would you recommend it or a Lie Nielsen?
Veritas has 3 shoulder planes, I have the medium and just took delivery of the small plane this week. The medium plane has been a real joy to use it has some very nice user friendly features that are not on the LN plane. I took the small plane and just played with it a little and I know I will like it too.
Go the FWW video clips and view the clip about shoulder planes. Just happens to feature the Veritas medium size plane without mentioning the name. I recognized it from the shape of the handle and adjustment features.
I do not think you can go wrong with this plane.
Good luck, DickB
L-N has a very good substitute for a shoulder plane and at the same time giving the qualities of a hefty block plane. Take a look at the L-N 60 1/2 Rabbet Block Plane $150 http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=60_5R
This plane is always on top of my workbench serving not only as an excellent block plane, but also does a superb job of working with tenons._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Thanks Michael, I already own that L-N model and you're correct about its virtues. I just needed a more specific plane to work inside of dado's and rabbets.
Best Regards, DickB
Dick, sounds like you need a Stanley 79 side rabbet plane. They are currently being manufactured in England.
Thank you, the shoulder plane is working great on rabbets. I think if I were to buy a rabbet plane I would go the the L-N for quality reasons.
DickB
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