I am ready to get a good quality plane but can’t decide between lie Nelson. # 4 or # 5 a little back ground I am older 69 have built some furniture and cabinets have most power tools thank you all in advance
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Replies
I use my 5 wayyyy more than my 4. If I were dropping that kind of cash, I’d get a 5. That being said, I’m not hugely experienced with hand tools. I just know that when there is work done that needs a plane, I usually grab my pre depression era Sweetheart Stanley 5. It’s actually a 5 1/4, but…
IMO the only reason to buy a #4 is size. Generally the 5 is going to take more strength because of a wider iron, and is not has handy for smaller tasks. OTOH, it would work better as a shooter.
Personally I don't own a 5, but my 6 leaves just about as good a surface as the 4.
The blade width on a 4 and 5 are exactly the same.
Unless you are buying on eBay, prepare to wait. Both planes are out of stock on the LN site.
I'm seeing the LN No. 4, LN No. 4 Bronze "Available" for purchase now on the Lie-Nielsen website and the LN No. 5 "Place Backorder" which means they are taking orders for the next production run. You can call LN to get some information on time frame.
"Out of Stock" is the other LN status where you can request email notification when it becomes available.
Don't hold your breath waiting for out of stock items. But the longest I've waited for anything that allows you to place a backorder has been 2 or three weeks.
The bronze Lie Nielsens have always been problematic for them. Two different foundries cast the iron and bronze bodies. The bronze have a much higher reject rate.
I'm a fan of Lie-Nielsen tools, and I don't believe either is a bad choice, but note: There's also a #4-1/2 smoother that has the same mass as their #5 but is shorter, about an inch longer than the #4, with a 2-3/8" blade (both the #4 and #5 have 2" wide irons). Wielded properly, all are capable of doing a lot of good work. The #4-1/2 is in stock as of today.
For what it's worth, the plane that I probably use the most (with the possible exception of the L-N #60-1/2 adjustable mouth block plane) is their #62 Low-Angle Jack. I absolutely adore this plane. While not a smoother, it handles most any other bench plane task with ease. I also use mine with my shooting board.
Note: I am in no way affiliated with Lie-Nielsen. I just love their planes.
I have both the LN #4 (in bronze) and their #62, which is essentially a low angle #5. While I regularly use both, if I had to choose just one it would definitely be the #62 along with an extra blade or two. Hone one blade for smoothing and general work (about 35 degrees on the blade for a net 47 degrees). And hone the second blade with a small microbevel on the base 25 degree edge for an excellent shooting plane (especially with their accessory hot dog). I worked with just that setup for quite a while before adding the dedicated #4 smoother. Now that I have the #4, I’ve honed the smoothing blade for the #62 to a steeper angle to handle gnarly grain. Great to have options — and multiple blades with the #62 gives you that! BTW, I’m 70.
I have a number of LN planes including a 4, 5, and a low angle 62. I use the 5 for edge jointing quite a bit but for not much else. I use the low angle for cleaning up end grain and some other things and it is a great plane (I have a Dictum hot dog for it btw). The 4 I use only for smoothing really and love the heft and bedrock design fantastic - and the design/quality of all the above is really really great. Not much better in some ways. That said, the 4 was the last plane I got and I had to return the handle twice and the third replacement was still not really satisfactory but I kept it. The handle had milling marks on the both flats of the handle (like planer marks on a board from Home Depot) - really hard to believe this would come out of LN. At first they didn't want to replace it - and I sent a note to Tom with images, then they took it back but the milling marks were there also on two subsequent handles. Also, had a blade edge with a sizeable crumbling defect that they replaced immediately. Check the products carefully - some of these issues may have to do with trying to constantly deal with back log. I wanted to pass this along though.
Hey, I've no comment on the choice of plane, but being just shy of
70 myself (a few more weeks..) I have no problems in the shop. Once
I find my keys, of course...
If you have a jointer and planer, the no 4 will be the most useful. The jack is the most useful overall if you don't have either machine. The low angle jack, as other poster mentioned, is very versatile.
If you want a versatile all purpose plane I vote for the 62 low angle it is by far more useful for many tasks than either a 5 or a 4. With a few relatively inexpensive blades ground for specific needs it can perform several task more than adequately, from jointing to smoothing difficult wood along with making a very capable shooting plane. On top of being one of the least expensive Lie-Nielsen planes you can buy.
I have the Veritas version of the 62 low angle plane with a couple of blades and I agree that it's the most useful, versatile plane I own.
Check out this video series on Hand Planes by Mike Pekovich.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/project-guides/handplanes/ep-1-fundamentals-handplanes-intro
Do your homework with proper sharpening techniques, sharpening stones and honing guides.
Another vote for a smoother. Jointing can be accomplished with many other tools, flattening doesn’t require anything high end, a smoother can easily shoot. Only a well tuned plane can deliver that sweet sweet hand planed finish. I vote #4 but you will be very happy with the L-N version of either, as well as the bevel up cousin.
Wait, don't they still make a 4 1/2 ? Thats what I have and it seems the logical compromise.
The answer is maybe. The 4½ is listed as a Core 2 tool which are lower priority production that you cannot currently order but you can sign up to be notified when thay are back in stock.
rog, To answer your direct question between the LN No. 4 and No. 5 if you have a jointer and thickness planer and this was going to be your only handplane I'd choose the No. 4 because the plane length and size is in between the No. 60-1/2 and No. 62 (see my beginner set recommendation below) so it can do many of those tasks (with limitations) and will excel at a handplaned "smoothing" finish coming off the thickness planer.
As others have indicated it all depends upon how you plan to incorporate the handplane into your work. A very good minimal starter set of handplanes for a power tool worker is the No. 60-1/2 Block Plane and the No. 62 Low Angle Jack Plane. These two tools cover a wide range of tasks from easing edges on boards, flush trimming a wooden peg, jointing a board too wide for the jointer, jointing edges, smoothing, and shooting. And as Bob Van Dyke shows below taming difficult grain. The handplane set that Mike Pekovich covers in his video referenced above would be the next logical step.
Here are some articles and videos on the versatility of the No. 62 Low Angle Jack Plane:
One Bench Plane Can Do it All
Stretch your tool budget by using different blades in one low-angle jack plane. By Christian Becksvoort #217–Jan/Feb 2011 Issue
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2010/12/09/one-bench-plane-can-do-it-all
https://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/pdf/9948/011217044.pdf
Videos showing the No. 62 versatility in use:
Garrett Hack: Bevel-Up Low-Angle Jack Plane is a Workshop Workhorse
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2014/01/17/bevel-up-jack-planes-are-a-workshop-workhorse
Bob Van Dyke: Taming Tough Grain with a Bevel-Up Plane
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2017/09/11/taming-tough-grain-with-a-bevel-up-plane-bob-van-dyke
P.S. The key to success with hand tools is sharpening and of course technique.
My LN Handplanes are: No. 60-1/2, No. 62, No. 4 (bronze), No. 5-1/2, No. 7, Medium Shoulder Plane, Large Closed Router Plane, Boggs Flat Spokeshave. I started with the No. 60-1/2 and No. 62 and that covered what I needed for a few years. I consider the set that I now have just about complete. Fair Warning: Once you buy a LN Handplane they have a tendency to multiply.
Enjoy your journey.
I grab the number 4 more often than anything else. My number 5 is used to hog off a lot of wood fast -- more as a scrub plane. I have the low angle jack, and really only use it with a toothing blade. The toothed blade ignores grain direction and let's me flatten gnarly wood before final cleanup.
The #4 is my workhorse. And the low angle block, of course.
The low angle jack, is very versitile, especially with multiple blades at various honed angles as many have mentioned here. That said, given the choice between a #4 and #5 I would start with the #5. It can be used as a smoother, it can be used to flatten fairly large boards, it can joint reasonable long edges, and it can be used as a good shooting plane. While the #4 can be used for a number of things in addition to smoothing, as a first plane, the #5 is more versatile.
For not much more than the cost of the LN No. 4, you don’t have to choose between a No. 4 and No. 5 - you can have both.
My LN No. 4 is adjusted for fine work, and I use it primarily for that purpose. As others have said, the LN No. 4 is an excellent plane; I find it easy to handle and it produces excellent results.
My No. 5 is a Stanley Bailey, probably 70 years old, with the original Stanley blade ground to a 10” radius. (I may eventually replace the Stanley blade with a Hock or Veritas PM-V11.) The No. 5 removes wood very quickly; I typically use it for coarse work, then finish with the No. 4 or, on larger surfaces, my No. 7.
I was fortunate to inherit my No. 5 from my father but, if you’re so inclined, you can purchase an old Stanley for much less than the cost of a new LN No. 5, then refurbish. Roland Johnson has a FWW video series on refurbishing planes, here: https://www.finewoodworking.com/videoworkshop/2021/01/restoring-vintage-handplanes-with-roland-johnson. Chris Schwarz describes his process for refurbishing planes on his Lost Art Press blog; search the blog for “jack”.
For the price of a single LN or LV plane, one can make several wooden equivalents that are not that difficult to make and will perform very well indeed. If money is tight, making your own plane will either cost much less or (for the same spend on a single high quality manufactured plane) enable you to make multiple planes of different kinds and abilities.
Even a bevel-up jack plane with multiple blades of various cutting angles is not truly a "jack of all planing".
Have a look at this thread if making your own plane has any appeal. Believe me, it's far easier than you might think and the results can function extremely well.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/forum/wooden-planes
Lataxe
Lataxe, Very nice hand planes! Thank you for documenting your process.
What do you recommend for wood species, wood characteristics (for those of us in the States), grain pattern (quarter, rift, flat) for the different parts of the planes?
Gary
Hi Gary,
Not having made that many wooden planes, most of my "knowledge" about the appropriate woods to use come from reading the various tomes about wooden tools. In addition, you can look at various commercial wooden plane makers to see what they use and why.
For example, a British chap:
http://phillyplanes.co.uk/
And a US maker:
https://blumtool.com/
(NB You may get a browser message that these web sites are "not secure" but they're safe, according to my various security parsers).
Traditionally beech, hard maple and even oak have been used, presumably because they're all tough and were in good local supply. However, some of the more exotic woods seem to have characteristics making them good for wooden tools.
For example, Gary Blum has mesquite as his top wood for planes, as it's very stable - moves least because of moisture changes in the atmosphere. Some others are naturally oily or waxy (e.g. afromosia and lignum vitae) which helps them glide. Tough timbers with hard and heavy aspects (e.g. rock maple and leadwood) resist wear if used in the sole.
Personally, I've found old-growth sapele, London plane (lacewood) and beech to be good. Close and straight grain seems to be the least likely to warp. I've not had to re-flattened any of the soles of my 4 home-made wooden planes, which are now all over a year old and used a great deal.
Perhaps the most critical thing is to ensure that the wood part used for the sole is not only tough (e.g. like maple or beech) but has it's grain oriented so you're planing with it's grain rather than against it, if the grain is rising/falling in relation to the sole. Planing with the wood fibres of the sole pointing down towards the front of the plane is more likely to see the sole suffer tear-out if it hits an awkward bit of stuff in the wood you're planing.
Many plane making books follow the traditional method of cutting the plane parts from one big chunk of wood then sticking them all back together in the same orientation as they had in the original chunk. This always seemed more likely to cause warpage than making the plane parts from various different bits of wood not necessarily from the same one-chunk. The various species and grain orientations seem to end up balancing out in the [plane and perhaps making it less vulnerable, not more, to moisture changes in the atmosphere.
*****
In all events, it costs much more in time to make a wooden plane than it does in money. If the first one goes wrong and is mostly a learn-by-mistakes item, you've lost very little cash and gained a lot of knowledge.
Making and using a successful plane is also extremely satisfying. One may even feel pride; and gloat at the money saved!
Lataxe
Lataxe, Thank you for taking your time for your detailed response!
I would never have though about grain direction on the sole of the plane, but it makes so much sense. I'll have to add this to my project list.
I have a Block plane and the common Bench planes No. 4, No. 5-1/2, No. 7 and a few Joinery planes Medium Shoulder, Large Closed Router and Flat Spokeshave all in metal. So I'll have to give some thought to what would be a good complement to my existing kit.
Wow! Some very nice work there, and an informative discussion about hand plane design, features, necessities, etc.
I can see that there’s a cost savings in making one’s own planes, but a question—how much time/effort is dedicated to making a plane such as the jointer you so nicely documented? It looks to me like a fairly sizable job with some inherent difficulty. Given the adage about time and money, I’m curious about the time/effort component.
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