I posted a question about how to joint boards that are too large for my 6 inch jointer and I got a lot of useful answers (General Discussion Forum (Thanks again for the answers). What I have is rough lumber that is quite uneven – some cupping and bowing. My goal is to flatten one face enough so that I can turn it over and run the other side through the planer. I tried building a planer sled as some suggested. My hot gluing did not work and I just did not like that option so I am investigating use of hand planes. I like the hand plane option. Problem is I don’t know what ones to get. I want to get buy as few as possible to achieve my goal – I’ll collect the more specialized planes later. JohnWW said I could do what I wanted with just a regular bench plane. Since I don’t have one I just want to make sure I get the right one. Another person said to get a scrub plane to knock out the rough stuff first and follow with another planer. I was told I do not need a perfectly planed surface if all I am oing is prepping it for the planer, anyway.
What I figured was I could use a scrub plane, followed up by a jointer plane or fore plane. One question I had was I read Chris Schwartz over at Popular Woodworking explain in an article about scrub planes that he prefers his foreplane with its longer sole over the scrub plane, even though scrub plane serves a more specialized purpose. So I am asking if I can skip the scrub plane and get just one plane or what minimal combo of hand planes do I need and which ones to do this job? My boards are 8 ft long but I would not be working anywhere near those lengths anyway so at most the boards I need to flatten will be at most, 5 feet. I would love to read your suggestions – Thanks, tom.
Replies
So I am asking if I can skip the scrub plane and get just one plane or what minimal combo of hand planes do I need and which ones to do this job?
Hi Tom
It is not a simple answer.
Lacking a power jointer, I mostly use handplanes to prepare the stock. I do have bandsaw for re-sawing, but this can only be used if one side of a board is flat. The question is when to pull out a jack plane and when to pull out a scrub?
The answer is based on doing the minimim planing possible in this area (I'd rather be cutting joints than dimensioning boards), so I tend to rely on a jack plane for most things and only turn to the scrub when there is a marked twist or cup that requires removal of a lot of wood.
If it is just a case of removing a slight twist or small amount of thicknessing (and this determination will also include the hardness of the wood - some of the hardwoods I build with are H-H-Hard), I would just use a jack. Over this I would use a scrub.
My main jack is a Stanley #5 1/2 with a choice of cambered blades - a marked 5 1/2" radius for a scrub-like performance, and a moderate radius for a general use.
My scrubs include the #5 1/2 above, a LV scrub, and a Stanley #40. All have a particular place in the grand scheme of things.
Here is my review of these scrubs, with a tutorial on their use ..
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/LVScrubPlane/index.asp
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 12/9/2007 7:54 am ET by derekcohen
I concur with Derek that a jack plane would be my first choice for this job. I have an old Record jack plane that I use for that purpose. (I bought it new; it's only old because I bought it so long ago....) You can set it for a relatively heavy cut, and work at 45° to the grain, from both sides of the board, and remove a lot of material in a controllable way with relatively little effort. If you buy an old plane and fix it up, I strongly recommend that you buy a new, thick blade made of A2 steel--it makes a world of difference.
You didn't mention what kinds of woods you'll be working with. Cherry, walnut or mahogany will succumb easily to this technique. Oak or hard maple will give you a workout. All bets are off it you use one of Derek's Southern Hemispherical tough-as-nails woods.
-Steve
You can very nice vinatege planes on eBay if you are game. Search "Stanley 5 type" and look for listings where the type # is like 14 or below (i.e. roughly pre-1940). You should be able to get a very nice clean one - no cracked handles or chipped mouths or other damage - for $35 or less (perhaps far less). It will cost more then the entire plane to buy a replacement blade from Lie-Nielsen or Ron Hock, but the plane might perform slightly better. If you are just usign the planes for rough flattening work, you really don't need the new blade IMHO.
If your wood is REALLY rough, a Stanley 40 would be a good investment as it will speed things up. A decent user on eBay would run you around $50.
Make your self some winding sticks too.
You got a good way to sharpen them planes? That's a whole nuther topic I spose.
Tom,
Why are you surfacing the entire board? Are you going to use it as a single piece?
Even when preparing stock with machines you should reduce it to rough dimension of the parts you expect to get from it. The traditional term for preparing stock was "thicknessing" for a reason. The final step is to bring the stock to a uniform, usable and predetermined thickness.
Years ago, when I made my living as a carpenter/cabinet maker we always bought rough lumber. We worked by machine and the only way we could start a job with properly straight and flat stock of 3/4" or 13/16" thickness was to start with rough lumber cut to rough dimension.
BTW, a scrub plane is a good way to end up with stock that's too thin. It's very easy to reduce a portion of stock too much and then you either start over or reduce the finish thickness of all your stock. Chris is right, use a fore plane. #5 or #6 Stanleys are basically fore planes.
Larry, you are a planing expert. But for the OPs benefit at least I would point out that the need to surface entire boards is common for panel glue ups or various sorts including table tops, cabinet sides, shelves, door panels etc.
And with respect, while the scrub may be too aggressive if one needs only to thickness a flat board down by a 1/16th, but if your need a cupped rough sawn 5/4 brought down to 7/8ths, I think I'd rather have a scrub or I'm gonna be laboring a good long while with my jack (even with the mouth wide open and serious camber on the blade).
I'm gonna be laboring a good long while with my jack (even with the mouth wide open and serious camber on the blade).
Let's talk about this camber thing....
Heh Heh Heh
Lee
Samson,As often happens around here, I think we may be talking past each other.To me scrub planes are those like a Stanley #40. The German style "scrub plane" has more in common with an Anglo/American fore plane than a Stanley type of scrub plane. The German plane is just shorter and I prefer the extra length of the Anglo/American fore plane. When I read someone's post saying they've turned a #5 into a scrub plane I want to post something like, "Congratulations, you've rediscovered the fore plane but please don't call it a scrub plane."If one takes two shavings, one with a scrub plane and the other with a properly set up fore plane, they should find the fore plane shaving would weigh as much or more than the scrub plane shaving. In other words, you'll remove as much or more wood with each pass of a fore plane than with each pass of a scrub plane. The extra width and length of the fore plane allows you to remove the wood in a much more controlled manner. The signatures of a fore plane are a lot easier and faster to remove when you move to the try plane. As a carpenter, I found a lot of uses for a Stanley type scrub plane. Backing out trim and some scribing with the scrub plane made things quick and easy. I don't have much use for a scrub plane when working at the bench, though. I would think twice before using a piece of wood with localized badly distorted ares in furniture or cabinet work and I find the Stanley type of scrub plane useful for only very localized work.If I were making something like a four panel architectural door, I would need the two longest panels to be something around 40" long. I would rough cut these to length rather than prep a piece 80" or more long. I'd do this if working by machine or by hand. It's just easier and more accurate.
When speaking with an expert, I know better than to go beyond my own direct experience. All I can say is that the 40 works very well for me when I need to remove an 1/8th inch or more from a face. I tend to work in diagonal patterns from both directions so that I end up making a sort of cross hatch pattern. The work is quick and easy as the plane while taking a deepish bite, is taking a narrow one. My jack takes what is left down to smooth in short order. Your milage may vary.
By the way, I have no doubt fore planes work very well for these sorts of tasks too.
As for cutting wide boards to rough length, I agree. I thought you were questioning whether the board really needed to be retain its width.
Thanks.
I like using planes, but for rough dimensioning it eats up too much time. If you don't have a wide jointer find a mill nearby that will help you out. For 1$ a minute it isn't really worth the effort saved.
Then again if you really like hand work hand planes are fine.
Frank
I cannot remember if I posted in your general discussion thread, or if I answered a similar question on another forum.
One of Larry's point is the one I made. That being the wood for a given project should be selected, a cut list of sorts applied to the boards, the pieces rough dimensioned as to length and widths before they see the jointer or planer. You'll find the only long and wide boards "needed" are for the tops of pieces--at least for house-sized furniture.
Point being is a whole lot of the width issue is then taken care of and your 6" jointer will flatten a face and straighten the edges fine. As well, less surface is removed because any twist/cup is lessened by the shorter lengths.
For the pieces that are needed to remain wide (still cut to rough lengths and widths), pre-flattening with a hand plane comes into play on those. As for metal planes, I used a Stanley 5 1/4 for a while. Loved it. I also had the LN scrub. Loved it too for less-hard hardwoods and softwoods.
A wooden plane of 14" to 16" with a decent radius is the least expensive option. Pick one up with no noticable cracks, a good iron still in it and camber the iron. A transitional of the above length can be a good price as well.
If you choose to get a metal scrub, my preference leans to the heavier and longer LV. But whether you get a vintage Stanley, the LN or LV models, flatten out the iron a bit. For your purposes as they come with a bit too tight a radius for just knocking off the high spots so it can pass through a planer.
Take care, Mike
Checkout the planes at a web site called Japan woodworker. Great selection of planes and blades. At a great price. Also think about using dfferent syle blades in the same plane instead of buying a whole new plane. Japan woodworker will have the answer your looking for.
Hi - thanks for the responses. I think I may have created unnecessary confusion with my question.
I have rough lumber that I want to plane by hand - so I can get a square bottom for when I run it through the planer. What I have heard is that I do not have to get the board perfectly square, just reasonably flat so the planer can truly flatten the other side and then I flip it over and finish the hand planed side.
So my question is what hand planes do I need to take the rough lumber to the point where I can feed it through my powered planer. I cannot take the wood to a mill or buy a bigger jointer - I already explored different options so I would like to limit the question to useage of hand planes.
Based on what I am reading it looks like all I need is a jack plane. The problem with my question, however, is I do not know how much flat is good enough to run the lumber through the powered planer, flip it over, and get two flat and parallel surfaces. Some of the prior responses from my other question said "reasonably falt." If that is the case I do not need a smoothing plane, etc. So assuming the surface does not need to be perfectly flat then I probably do not need more than one or two planes. If this assumption is correct my question is what planes or plane will do this limited task - thanks, Tom.
my question is what planes or plane will do this limited task
A 5 (jack) is the most practical (and cheap)
A 7, with its 22" long sole can also be useful as it has the advantage of extra mass as well as the length to bridge high spots and bring everything down to flat.
A 40 (scrub) is nice to have if you have really rough stock and want to quickly remove serious amounts of wood - for example, the high portions of a 1/8th to 1/4 cup or twist.
All you need is for the board to be flat enough that it doesn't rock, either side to side or front to back, and that it doesn't flex under the pressure of the planer's feed rollers, which it could do if it were noticeably cupped.
-Steve
Flat in this case means no twist over the length of the board and no large areas that aren't touching the table. What you need to remove, in addition to twist, is any cupping that would get pressed flat by the feed rollers only to spring back after the stock went through the machine.
If a cupped board was 12 inches wide, planing down the outer edges until the central cupped area was only about 4 inches wide should be adequate. The hand planed surface can look all torn up, the planer will fix that later.
The advantage to a scrub plane is that it will be faster and a little less tiring to use than a bench plane if you have to remove a fair amount of stock. Note that no hand plane works well on knots and knots can chip the blade on a hand plane.
John W.
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