Replies

1. 
   CharlieD | Feb 17, 2005 10:45pm | #1

   I'm still learning, but prefer hand planes to power tools, mostly. I especially like them for flattening a face and jointing boards, but they are also unsurpassed for achiveing a flawless surface. They're safer, quieter, less messy, save energy, need less space and are cheaper, generally speaking. There's a steep learning curve, though, and the need for a complete sharpening setup and a quality bench with good vises adds to the cost.

   Charlie

   I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
2. 
   dwright | Feb 18, 2005 01:36am | #2

   I like using my machines, but have found that handplanes are faster and produce better results for some tasks.

   --  Smoothing bandsawn surfaces or edges off the table saw that will be exposed in the finished piece.

   --  Making plywood edging flush with the panel.

   --  Trimming dovetails flush.

   --  Sometimes I don't have enough spare board length to cut off planer snipe.  In those cases a stroke of two of the plane brings the field of the board down to the height of the snipe.

   --  Smoothing boards that tear out at the power planer.

   --  Gentle beveling or rounding of edges.

   --  Touching up rabbet depths.

   Note that I'm not a neanderthal.  I don't use planes to prepare glue joints; I get good enough results right off the table saw for that.  I mostly use planes where the smooth surface will be seen and when trimming thin bits off wood to fit or flush parts.  Most of my work is with the following planes (listed in order from most used to least):  block, smooth, jack, shoulder.  I have a range of blade angles, width, and body materials in each, and reach for whichever one is right for the job at hand.

3. 
   Michmesquite | Feb 18, 2005 01:48am | #3

   If I am doing a piece of furniture cabinetry, I use power tools to get stock to gross sizes and hand tools for the rest of the project. I prefer metal planes from Lie-Nielsen.

   If I am doing kitchen/storage type cabinetry, I use power tools.

   _________________________________

   Michael in San Jose

   "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/17/2005 6:09 pm ET by MICHAELP

4. 
   1525 | Feb 18, 2005 04:28am | #4

   I'll tell ya. There is no other tool in my collection that incites as much aggravation or induces as much enjoyment as the small number of handplanes I have.  On some woods, I get a thin ribbon of wood (and the awesome sound which accompanies it) that makes me think I'll never go back to machines and then on others, the plane skips across the surface and when it finally catches wood, it creates tearout so bad I (who has the temperment of chained dog) almost consider throwing the plane across the shop. It's tough, I envy those that do it well and feel for those who do it like me. As far as application, I, because of my very limited skill, only use handplanes to flatten hard bows on rough sawn lumber prior to running it through my jointer and planer. Although I did have very good luck with both my block and low angle block planes on a padauk bombay jewelry box I made.

1. 
   CajunDan | Feb 18, 2005 09:20pm | #11

   On those planes that skip across the surface - you might want to check to see if the bottoms are flat. A few minutes of lapping can sometimes make a world of difference.

   Regards,

   Dan

1. 
   1525 | Feb 19, 2005 07:17am | #15

   Short of having a machinist flatten the soles of my planes, I dont think they will ever be as flat as they are now.  I spent a great deal of time flattening the soles. My problem  probably has something to do with the blades.   I can flatten a sole with no problem, but I dont know that I'll ever get my blades as sharp as some folks claim they can do. I've tried every technique except for water stones and that only because I haven't convinced myself to fork out the money required for those. It's hard to justify that purchase when I have yet to achieve satisfactory results with what other people claim they have no problem with.  Any thoughts on water stones?  Or other means of getting a blade "perfect?"

1. 
   CajunDan | Feb 19, 2005 10:23am | #16

   Tobias,

   I don't suscribe to this sharpening "zen" thing.  A minute on a V. Fine diamond stone, then a minute on the 6000 grit side of my cheapo combo water stone and I am good to go. Freehand - I have no idea what my bevel angle is exactly. I am perfectly happy to let others debate the bevel angle for Specious jocular to the tenth of a degree, but I seem to get good results, anyway.

   I sharpen my tools because I use them. Not because I like to sharpen.

   Sorry for the lecture. I hope I haven't hurt your feelings.

   D

    

2. 
   RMillard | Feb 19, 2005 08:48pm | #19

   You didn't ask me, but I give you the run down on how I sharpen my planes. First I'll start by saying I'm somewhat of a fanatic about sharpening ( along with stock preparation and finishing). Despite my fanaticism, the method is simple and cheap. It has under gone some changes since I bought my first oil stone and grinder in the late 70's.
   Today I still use that same oil stone ( a Norton combination) and grinder, but I switched to sandpaper a few years ago in place of the fine Arkansas stone I had been using. I glue strips of 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 grit paper to a piece of glass. The most recent addition is some diamond paste squirted on a block of wood to do the final honing. When I get a new tool the back is polished to a mirror finish and I never again touch it to anything more coarse than the 2000 grit paper. Other than the tool rest on the grinder, I don't use any kind of jigs, nor do I get too caught up in sharpening angles. I certainly haven't broken any new ground with this, and that is the point, you don't need anything fancy or a lot of knowledge to sharpen a tool to perfection, nor do you need a lot of time.It should only take a very few minutes to completely sharpen a blade, unless it has been knicked.
   The key is to have two surfaces come to as perfect a point as possible, and most of this is achieved through the selection of abrasives, and not going from one grade to the next until it has done all it can do for you. Of course the metallurgy of the tool in question also plays a large part in how sharp you can get it. The rest is a proper hold on the tool as you move it over the abrasive. I'm against jigs, but that is a personal thing, so I just lock my elbows and make the movement from the shoulders. Many times if you have trouble with something, looking carefully at your technique will show you where a different hold will produce the results you want. I have attached a photo showing my sharpening tools and a few drawer fronts from a curly maple chest on frame I currently making. You'll see the nearly transparent shaving from the LN 4 1/2 taken from the curly maple. The plane and the sharpening have everything to do with making a shaving like that, not me, I'm just there to push it over the wood.
   Rob Millard

   Edited 2/19/2005 3:53 pm ET by RMillard

   
1. 
   Jellyrug | Feb 20, 2005 07:06pm | #21

   Rob,

   Do you sgharpen your own jointer and planer blades, or do you send them out?

   What bevel angles do you use on these?

2. 
   RMillard | Feb 20, 2005 11:52pm | #22

   I don't own a jointer. When the blades on my planer get dull, I just replace them with new ones, because they are so cheap ( $27.00 at Lowe's). I do use a fine grit diamond hone to put an approximatley 5 degree back bevel on the planer blades before installing them. This lets them plane figured woods without tearout or at least reduced tearout.Rob Millard

3. 
   sprocket | Feb 21, 2005 12:12am | #23

   Hey Tobias,
   If you are curious about water stones, I say go for it ! King brand economy watertones are what I have and you don't have to spend a fortune to get started. They cut much faster than oilstones and are also superior to sandpaper on glass (in my opinion). The coarser grits are about 20$ each and the more you get the better results you'll obtain. I would suggest a 1000 grit, a 1200 grit and maybe an 800 grit too if you restore garage/estate sale finds like I do. These coarser grit stones will need to be periodically flattened in use, for this I use a DMT large size (extra coarse) 220 grit diamond stone (I paid 110$ for mine from a kitchen knife on-line store) . Using the stones that I just mentioned at your kitchen sink with a custom wood holder, you can get VERY accurate results on the bevels and backs of chisels, plane blades and even plane soles. Once the bevel is perfect up to 1200 grit (I do usually use a honing guide by the way...Lee Valley/Veritas) you'll then need some polishing type stones. I have a 4000 King (still pretty inexpensive), a full size 6000 grit with Nagura stone ( getting a bit pricey now). I also have a full size 8000 grit finishing stone but I don't use it much. I have taught myself how to get a perfectly flat, mirror-polished bevel and back using this system which doesn't have to be overly time consuming once you get used to the process.

5. 
   Midnight | Feb 18, 2005 04:36am | #5

   I'll echo what Charlie said...

   as for choice of material, that depends on the task at hand, iron for stock prep and finish smoothing, wood for moulding..

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

6. 
   lwj2 | Feb 18, 2005 05:01am | #6

   Metal, old Baileys that I've re-habbed. They can be had for fairly reasonable prices on places like e-Bay.

   I use machines to cut to size, plane smooth and finish the planed surface. I scuff-sand between coats of oil for adhesion. Smaller projects may be entirely hand-tool construction.

   Like some others in the forum, I like the sound (or lack of it) and feel of a plane taking thin, transparent shavings and the surface the planed wood has. FWIW, I also use a No. 2 Millers Falls drill, it's quiet, does the job, doesn't need batteries or cords and holds bits in the handle.

   I've used a couple of wooden planes and don't care for them. YMMV.

   Regards,

   Leon Jester
7. 
   haroldp | Feb 18, 2005 09:48am | #7

   I use old prewar Stanleys that have been tuned. blades are usually replaced with A2 blades.

   The surface you get on some woods is remarkable. Problem woods can be handled by either high or low plane angles depending on the wood.

   regards

   Harold

8. 
   RMillard | Feb 18, 2005 02:27pm | #8

   I use planes for most of my work. No solid wood surface on my furniture gets by without a plane going over it, but I wouldn't want to work without my surface planer. I use the hand planes to flatten stock before shoving it through the planer. If I have a lot to flatten I'll turn to my Makita power plane to move things along.

   I use both wood and metal planes, but despite my traditionalist leanings, I prefer the metal ones. The heft seems to help reduce chatter and hold the surface. Having said that, I have a Clark and Williams 30" wooden jointer, and a homemade scrub plane, that I use all the time.

   I?m not tied to planes out of some longing for the past, they produce the best surface possible, and result in a piece of furniture with a crisp look, plus one quick pass with a plane will equal several minutes of sanding.

   Rob Millard

1. 
   KyleZ | Feb 18, 2005 06:30pm | #10

   Rob,

   Are the Clark and Williams planes as good as their reputation? And hypothetically, if you were in the market for a smoother would you buy a C&W, or because of the heft issues that you mentioned would you get an LN 4 1/2, an infill, or even something else?

   I've often thought that I'd like one of those small smoothers from C&W, if I ever had extra money.  I'm referring to the one that listed for around $185.

   Cheers

   Kyle

1. 
   Michmesquite | Feb 18, 2005 09:26pm | #12

   Kyle

   I have a L-N #4 1/2 and also purchased a high angle frog to go with it.

   This is a great, easily adjusted, smoother and because of its additional weight is easy to keep going over a large surface._________________________________

   Michael in San Jose

   "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell 

1. 
   bones | Feb 19, 2005 04:35pm | #17

   What does the high angle frog do for the 4 1/2? A question from a novice.

   Edited 2/19/2005 8:38 am ET by bones

1. 
   CharlieD | Feb 19, 2005 06:59pm | #18

   Different woods will benefit from different blade angles when trying to achieve a flawless surface. Straight grained softwoods generally want a lower angle, and figured hardwoods generally want a higher angle to had perfect glassy-smooth surfaces.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

2. 
   Michmesquite | Feb 19, 2005 10:39pm | #20

   bones

   The blade angle on a standard L-N (Stanley/Bedrock) #4 1/2 is 45d to the sole of the plane. A high-angle frog (York) puts the blade 50d to the sole.

   Where a 45d plane "slices" through normal growth, a 50d plane "scrapes" confused growth. The 50d frog is used mostly for highly figured wood.

   Handplaners sometimes carry a separate plane blade with the back ground 5 - 10d to achieve the same result. It may be difficult with this type of blade to get a Stanley frog to close the gap sufficiently to get a thin shaving._________________________________

   Michael in San Jose

   "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell 

2. 
   RMillard | Feb 19, 2005 03:43am | #14

   I can say without hesitation that the Clark and Williams jointer is an excellent tool. It is very well finished and leaves an superior surface to that left by my Stanley No.7. I'm sure their smooth planes are just as good, although I have not used one, I have wanted one.
   I own a LN 4 1/2 with a high angle frog, and I can't see how any plane could do a better job, so it would be ( and obviously was) my choice for a smooth plane.Rob Millard

9. 
   joinerswork | Feb 18, 2005 05:13pm | #9

   jr,

   I use hand planes to remove the machine marks from my work.  Also for adjustment of joints as needed.  Mostly wooden bodied, mostly old. Metal planes:  I have a Stanley jack plane that I use for cleaning dried glue off panels, a Stanley rabbet plane, and a Bailey compass plane for circular work. If a board is too wide for my planer, I'll dress it with the hand planes. I like the wood bodied planes for their lighter weight, and less friction against the stock I'm working.  Others prefer metal for its greater mass...Different strokes, as they say.

   Regards,

   Ray

10. 
    shopteacher | Feb 19, 2005 03:41am | #13

    It has to be hand planes.  I started with Stanleys, properly sharpened and set up they are excellent.  The last few years I have taken to keeping a "group" of planes on the bench.  For edges, I start with an old Fulton transitional (this removes the sawn edge left by the sawmill).  The first plane is rarely very sharp but it removes wood.  Next is a Stanley #7 that is sharper and set to a finer shaving.  Last is another #7 with a jointer gauge that is set very fine and kept very sharp.  The last plane leaves a square, straight edge.

    For flat surfaces I start by planing to a thickness about 1/8" over the finished measurement (Boice-Crane - 12" thickness planer).  Next I "joint" the surface with a #7 and remove another 1/32 in the planer. Once the board is within 1/32 of the finished measurement I use a smaller plane (Lie-Neilsen 4 1/2) to finish the surface.  As time goes on I am moving to a time when I do no sanding.  This process lets the wood move between each planing and sneaks up on the final dimension.  I have to echo the sentiments of others, the Lie-Neilsen planes probably cannot be beat.

    One of the great benefits of working like this is the absence of dust and noise.

    Shop Teacher