So, is there a reasonable way to square the sides to the sole? I can’t quite figure it out. Neither of my smoothers–a Record and an old Stanley Bailey–is anywhere close to square.
Thanks,
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don’t let anybody tell you different. –K Vonnegut
Replies
The fast way is to take it to a machine shop and pay to have it done on a surface grinder. The Neanderthal way is to use a flat surface, a square, and a machine fitter's scraper (and maybe some Prussian blue) and scrape it square. Someone will probably suggest a belt sander, and that might actually be the most reasonable approach. Or you could glue shims on the sides.
Shims, huh? Now that's interesting. What on earth is a "machine fitter's scraper"? You've got my interest...
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
CharlieD,
I wouldn't let a machinist anywhere near any of my planes--unless he is a woodworker with thorough knowledge about planes. I've heard too many horror stories.
First, I guess, is to be sure you really need the sides square to the sole. Of all my planes there are only two on which I bothered to check: my low angle smoothing plane that I use as a miter plane with a shooting board, and my Stanley #92 shoulder plane. Those are my only planes on which it matters.
If you need planes where the sole and sides are square, you need to decide if you need both sides square, or only one. For example, my shoulder plane needs both sides square to the sole; but my dedicated "miter" plane needs only the right side square.
Once you've figured all that out, there are a few ways to procede. Actually, a machinist ought to be able to square everything without grinding away too much. If I had a machinist working on my plane I would insist on watching him as he did so.
Scraping and sanding will also work. The trouble, of course, is to make sure you're removing what needs to be removed where it needs to be removed. Others know much more than I about such things; I'm sure someone with those skills will chime in.
Alan
Well, guys, it WAS for shooting that I wanted the sides square; I was under the impression that This would be the best way to joint boards for joining into panels; get 'em flat with my jointer plane, then sqaure 'em perfectly with a smoother and a shooting board. Wrong?
I wanna shoot miters, too. But I have to admit, that I also want to fuss with my tools 'til they're perfect (or as perfect as I can get 'em.)
I'm saving up for a LN plane; where would you start? I've got an old Stanley smoother #4; flat sole, takes a tissue thin shaving, but I still get tearout sometimes, on squirrelly grain. Tote is a bit loose. Kinda rusty.
I have a newer Record that works OK I guess, but I really set it up mostly to scrub, cause I have no scrub plane, and get hit or miss lumber pretty often--sometimes even rough lumber. It's not a great scrubber, though.
I have an Stanley jack (#6?) that I got cheap ($12, hee, hee) at a 2nd hand joint where they didn't know what it was; it was painted red and I cleaned it up. Works pretty darn well, for the $ I guess. Thgere's a good sized nick in the edge that leaves a little ridge on the work; have yet to grind that down. Maybe get a Hock blade for that one.
And, I've got an old LakeSide jointer with a corrugated sole. Oh, and a typical Stanley "contractor grade" low angle block.
I have no rabbet, shoulder, etc. Actually, I have no plane with a blade out all the way to the side at all. I'll be going to a WW show in about 3 weeks w/about $300, and a jones for hand planes. What do you guys think?
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
There's a much easier way to get the the edge of a board square.
Both Veritas and Lie-Nielsen sell little squaring planes for exactly this purpose. They aren't real expensive. I bought the Veritas version because the blade is a bit wider. It works like a charm. Just draw it down the edge of the board a couple of times and you have a perfectly square edge.
Wow, that's cool. Looked at the Veritas. Pretty nifty. A bit pricey maybe...seems like I need to improve my set of regular old palnes, then maybe look at one of those beauties. Love to have one though; do you use that plane to get to your final dimensions, then?
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
That's a good question. Often the exact dimension of individual boards isn't too important (I mean to 64ths of an inch). On a table top, for example, the widths of individual boards is not important - if the total width is critical, which it usually isn't, you can take it off the outside edges. For other projects where the width is important the squareness isn't all that important, such as a drawer front. But to answer your question, if dimension is important I'd cut the piece on the tablesaw a little wide, take a couple passes with the squaring plane to get it square, then go over it with the jointer plane to final dimension. You'll find that it's not hard to keep the jointer plane flat across the edge, especially if you're skewing it a little.
Anyway, using one of these squaring planes (I keep calling them that even though it's not the correct name) is far preferable, as far as I'm concerned, to shooting boards and worrying whether your smoothing plane has square sides. The right tool does wonders!
It would seem that there are two different operations being discussed and confused here.
Using a shooting board with a trued up plane is only for cleaning up the end grain of a board for a tight fitting joint. Squaring up the long edge of a board for a panel glue up is an entirely different operation and does not require a plane with its sides square to the sole.
John W.
"Squaring up the long edge of a board for a panel glue up is an entirely different operation and does not require a plane with its sides square to the sole."
John, if you don't mind, what's your procedure for this--using handplanes, I mean..?
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
CharlieD,
I'm not John, but I also joint the edges of my stock without a shooting board. It's not very difficult, though it does take practice.
You will need a long straight edge--how long depends on how long the boards are that you want to joint. I have a 36" steel ruler and a 40" aluminum ruler, and with them I've been able to straighten the edges of boards over 6' long. (I know some woodworkers who use just an aluminum extrusion.)
I use a straight edge to find the high spots. I mark the high areas with a pencil, and then plane only those. I use the straight edge again, and mark the spots that are still high; then I hit those spots with the plane.
I keep working until I can take one long shaving from end to end, that's consistent in thickness. I'm satisfied my edges are straight when the boards I want to join go together with a solid "clack" and no light can get between them.
I practiced enough that I can usually joint the edge square with the face--not always, but usually. I hook my thumb around the knob and curl my fingers under the sole so they ride on the wood. It's really not that hard to keep the edge square.
I have one of those Lee Valley block planes with a solid fence that's square to the sole. It works great. But the edge of the board has to be straight along its length for it to work. It also won't work that well if you have to remove quite a bit of wood; the plane will square up the edge, but it will also ruin the straightness of the edge. If I've fouled up that much I always go back to the jointer to square up the edge and get it straight.
BTW, you can buy fences that attach to the side of a plane that will hold the plane's sole at a fixed angle. I got an old Stanley at a garage sale, and I see them around here and there (Lee Vally also makes one). I never use mine. Again, it's not that hard.
Alan
"BTW, you can buy fences that attach to the side of a plane that will hold the plane's sole at a fixed angle."
I thought of that, but once again, the sides of the plane would have to be straight for it to work, right?
What about the idea of jointing both boards at once, bookmatched? Seems like it has to work...
Yo, what hand planes should I add? Any opinions?
Thanks again, Alan.
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
CharlieD,
I don't know anything about the Lee Valley jointer fence; I don't know if it can be set at different angles. The one I have is adjustable to just about any angle, obtuse or acute, from the plane's sole. So it doesn't matter if the plane's side isn't square with the sole; you need to use a try square to set it up anyway. I never use it though; it's too much trouble. I'd rather take a few extra swipes with my jointer.
Planing both sides of the joint at the same time will work. However, as someone else mentioned, if the angle is off more than just a little bit there's a good chance the two boards will slip out of alignment when you try to glue them together. DAMHIKT. Besides, the purist in me cringes at the thought; I'd rather practice some more than resign myself to making do.
Alan
Hey, Al, it's not about making do!
Actually I described it sort of wrong as well. You can shoot both sides of the joint at once, clamped together, and I sometimes do, but with thick stock it can be a bit challenging.
What you do is this: mark the boards to be jointed face up and in the right order with a cabinetmaker's triangle, and if you like, number them as well. Take board 1, shoot the first, inside, edge to be joined, dead straight. Flip board two so that the face is down, and shoot the other side of the joint. Offer them together, lay a straight-edge over the faces of the two boards, and they'll be flat as. The quality of the joint along its length will still depend on your expertise, but your technique will have compensated for any out-of-squareness across the joint.
Set your long plane as near as square as you can (to minimise the risk of the boards slipping out of alignment when you glue up) and the out-of-squareness will be very small, but compensated for.
This is good practice however square you think your setup is.
With practice, jointing by hand with a shooting board can be real quick. On a good day, I can join an 8 to 10 board panel in a half hour or so.
Cheers from New Zealand
Wow, cool. I get it now; can't wait to try it.
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
kiwimac,
It's 'Alan.'
I'm not sure I follow. Do you use your long plane on its side when you joint an edge? Where does the shooting board come in? I'm sooo confused.
Also, do you thickness your stock prior to glue up? Or why else do you lay a straight edge across their faces?
I joint one board at a time, edge up, held in a shoulder vise. I guess the only step I need to do that perhaps you do not is to try the edge with a square (as in "tried and true"). Any out of square edges I've planed are because of my failings, not because the iron isn't aligned with the sole of the plane. After all, aligning the edge of the iron is a trivial matter, and I do it automatically as I set the depth of cut.
I wait until the panel is glued up before I plane everything flat. I don't remember that I've ever had a panel come out of the clamps with the faces of all the boards perfectly even with each other. No matter that the boards were exactly the same thickness, or how square the edges were, or how careful I was during glue up, there's always been a little planing to do to get the panel flat. Besides, I find it saves me the step of flattening everything twice: once before glue up and once after.
Alan
It's 'Alan.'
Apologies. Being too flippant.
Also, I made the silly assumption that knots' readers would understand that the traditional approach to shooting joints involves a shooting board, with the long plane lying on it's side and the board to be jointed parallel to the shooting board. See my comments below allan:
I'm not sure I follow. Do you use your long plane on its side when you joint an edge? Where does the shooting board come in? I'm sooo confused.
Yes. Suggest you find an article somewhere on shooting boards.
Also, do you thickness your stock prior to glue up? Or why else do you lay a straight edge across their faces?
Yes, last step is shooting the joints, the straight-edge is just to confirm that the joint is true across the face.
I joint one board at a time, edge up, held in a shoulder vise. I guess the only step I need to do that perhaps you do not is to try the edge with a square (as in "tried and true"). Any out of square edges I've planed are because of my failings, not because the iron isn't aligned with the sole of the plane. After all, aligning the edge of the iron is a trivial matter, and I do it automatically as I set the depth of cut.
That's the point about correct technique. If your technique works, the joint will be true. I check across the board edges with a square sometimes, and along the length of the joint by eye, sometimes, but if you are doing it right, the joint'll be right. In my experience, accurately shooting a long board held upright in a vice is very hard, however good you are. I don't try. Ever.
I wait until the panel is glued up before I plane everything flat. I don't remember that I've ever had a panel come out of the clamps with the faces of all the boards perfectly even with each other. No matter that the boards were exactly the same thickness, or how square the edges were, or how careful I was during glue up, there's always been a little planing to do to get the panel flat. Besides, I find it saves me the step of flattening everything twice: once before glue up and once after.
OK. But if your boards are flat, and your jointing technique works, the clean-up should be just a light scrape to remove the glue squeeze-out and the occasional up and down along the joints. Really.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Charlie-
The old Stanley jointer fences for mounting on the side of the plane, called 386 jointer gauges, are adjustable to any angle. So, with your favorite square, you can adjust the sole of the plane to dead 90 to a flat side of lumber by simply adjusting the angle of the gauge, regardless if the side of the plane is square to the sole.
JC
One thing I have done with some of my planes is square up the sides using my overhead thickness sander.
I make a block of wood about 6" wide and 2+" thick with one square edge. I bolt the plane to the square edge with one side of the plane even with the top surface of the board. I then run the board and plane under the sander till it is true. I make very light passes using 150 grit paper. That process gets the sides perfectly square with the base and put a factory like finish on the side of the plane.
I have also made cradles so as to be able to use the same process on the bottom of the plane.
This is not something I offer as a service to my customers.
WARNING - Don't do this if it requires taking off more than about 0.015" (1/64th inch) of the cast iron. Might could take off more on a thick casting plane, but those generally don't need it anyway.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
You have to think that this is one of those areas where people educated with hand tools and good technique are actually quicker than all the fancy attachments.
All of my fiddling with a shooting board (I use a stanley #4 and it is not square) has been much more affected by the set of the iron than any thing else - no way would I try and fiddle the angle of the board - just too many variables at once, and what happens if you swap between a standard and low angle plane with different errors between sole and side?
As for jointing - I'm with you, my brother bought one of those right angle things a couple of years ago on a visit to Canada - it sits in the loungeroom china cabinet with the rest of his planes and he regards it as an interesting curio to round out his collection. The problem is that the short sole very rapidly introduces the very errors you used the #7 to avoid in the first place.
Charlie,
It will take me a few hours to write up my planing technique in enough detail that you will be able to try it out. I've already started, but it will take a few days, working on it a little at a time between paying jobs, to get it all down. I'll post it when the piece is done.
John W.
Gracious...take your time. I'm serious about moving toward hand tools, and already use them every time I'm able or have the right tool for the job, but this is not a right-this-minute thing. Thanks though; your efforts will be read with care and taken seriously.
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Could you make your shooting board match your plane to get a square edge?
"Could you make your shooting board match your plane to get a square edge?"
Hmm..maybe...but I think Kiwi's idea of jointing both at once in a bookmatched arrangement might be easier...
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Here's a web site for a company that sells power scrapers.
http://www.dapra.com/biax/scrapers/
The picture at the top is a power scraper, but it shows how you would address the business end of a scraper to a workpiece. At the bottom of the page are a couple of pictures of hand scrapers.
The point of all this is that using very simple hand tools it is possible to scrape cast iron to a remarkable degree of flatness, down into the micron range. This is how surface plates were generated before we had the machinery to do the job with granite.
With a properly sharpened scraper, you can take extremely thin shavings of cast iron. How you know where to take the shavings is by spreading a thin layer of spotting ink or dye on a known flat surface, rubbing the workpiece against it, and scraping off the high spots, where the ink stuck to the workpiece.
For the side of a shooting plane, you would be matching against two references, a square to get the side square to the bottom, and a surface to keep it planar.
Here's a Google search string that should find you an introductory article on scraping, but I ran out of patience before I found one.
"hand scraping" "cast iron" -architectural
The last item on the dapra page referenced above is a book entitled "Machine Tool Reconditioning." It's the Bible on hand scraping. It's also about $100, but if you have any slightest interest in refurbishing old machine tools, or even in reading about refurbishing old machine tools, it's well worth it. I've never regretted buying my copy, despite not having scraped a single thing in the years I've owned it.
Use the right technique when shooting joints and a bit of out-of-square doesn't matter. Otherwise you'll be endlessly fiddling with the plane iron to get it square in the mouth, regardless of how square the plane body is.
Swap the boards end for end on opposite siders of the joint, and any out of squarness is automatically compensated for.
Doesn't work with mitres (or does it!?), but it sure does for shooting joints.
M
That's a good point about jointing both edges at once; although if they get too far out of square, they slip out of alignment when the clamps are applied. Thanks for the reminder, though, I have done that with success before.
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Wow, some site. Even had a hand scraper "for use with any...replacement blade." Pretty interesting stuff; a little intimidating though. I've just gotten the hang of scraping wood...thanks for taking the time to root all of this out...(how 'bout that snow last night? Bet your view of the Flatirons is pretty nice today...)
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
They aren't square because they didn't need to be square for there intended use, surface planing. In metal work, making something accurately square always adds to the expense of the job, so manufacturers wouldn't square up a casting if it wasn't needed.
Stanley made a few planes that were machined square for use with shooting boards, these planes had wide side faces so they would be stable when running on their side. Their #9 cabinet makers block plane was one such tool and the other was a #51 plane designed to work with the Stanley #52 cast iron shooting board. The special Stanleys each cost about twice as much as the equivalent size ordinary Bailey bench plane.
Lie-Nielsen makes a reproduction of the #9, they call it an iron miter plane, it costs $350, over forty times the cost of the Stanley plane in 1929.
John W.
How close do you want it?
1/16" in 3" (the side) is only 1/128" in 3/4" ( a work piece).
Surface grinding a good way to make the sides square, but 1/16" is a lot to remove on a grinder. An hour's work in a good shop will cost $50-100.
Well, any error in squareness will be multiplied by the width of the panel I'm joining, so I'd have liked them to be pretty square; but others have pointed out some other options, below. Might try one of those ideas, thanks...
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled