Replies

1. 
   Eef | Jun 13, 2008 10:53pm | #1

   hey dan,

   a few years back, i began cutting dovetails by hand, a'la tage frid (may he rest in peace). he used a bowsaw.  i, myself, started cutting them with a gents saw that i purchased at rockler. since then, i broke down and bought the adrias dovetail saw, with no regrets.

   what is it that you want to make/do/cut? let us know.

   eef

1. 
   DanCC | Jun 13, 2008 11:09pm | #2

   Dove tails yes, but other things too.  I have a couple plastic handle pieces of junk that I find myself reaching for when working in the shop when I have a single cut to make and it really is not worth it to set up a power tool.  I always regret doing so because I get such a bad cut.  I suspect some of the problem is me,  bad technique and not knowing what tool to use and some of the problem is the tool itself.  I have read about the smooth cuts with a well set up hand saw.  And the dovetail saw I have really does a fairly good job (kerf could be smaller), but it really is just giving me a taste of what must be out there.  I suspect I need a good cross cut saw of some kind to go with my dovetail for now, and then get a better dovetail as money allows.

   Dan Carroll

   Edited 6/13/2008 4:10 pm by DanCC

2. 
   sykesville | Jun 13, 2008 11:22pm | #3

   I have the Gramercy tools dovetail saw (rip filed, 19 points per inch) and the LN small carcass saw (crosscut filed, 16 ppi). Both cut like you wouldn't believe - no pressure, just move your arms. Especially if you're like me, having used saws off the shelf from home depot etc. or the least expensive saws at woodworking stores for years, you aren't going to believe the difference. And I just tried out LN's large tenon saw. Incredibly smooth,and super fast cut (13 ppi, crosscut). Waiting impatiently for mine to arrive in the mail.

   For your first 'fine woodworking saw,' three things to ask yourself: how deep of a cut do you usually make? (ie, like with dovetails, tenons, etc) Cross cut or rip cut (with the grain or across it)? And what ppi (basically, the more ppi, the smoother, yet speed drops. I tend to use the higher ppi in the categories.

   jack

3. 
   SawdustSteve | Jun 15, 2008 06:12am | #4

   Without getting into too much detail, I use a Disston 12 or 13 PPI for most crosscutting and an 8 PPI for ripping. Most basic wood shop books will show you how to hold and use a saw. Just remember to let the teeth do the work, don't muscle the saw throughj the wood.

   There are two different ways of counting teeth. Some people put a ruler against the teeth and, just like reading a ruler do NOT count the tooth at the zero mark. They will say 12 TPI (teeth per inch) while others count the tooth at the zero mark and will call it a 13 PPP (points per inch). Why?? I have no idea, but one tooth either way will not make any difference.

   I'll pick up old saws at garage sales, re4move the handle and soak them in good old white vinegar overnight, then use a scotch-brite scrubber to remove the rust and crud. A washing in cold water, and the saw looks nice and clean. A few minutes of work with an old toothbrush and 'Simple Freen' on the saw handle is all that is needed. Next step is to send it off to a good saw sharpener. When it comes back I give the blade a coat of Johnson's Paste wax. It keeps the rust down and gives a slippery surface that makes sawing easier.

   If it has a plastic handle on it, or says 'Great Neck' as a brand I avoid it, as it will not hold a sharp tooth for any length of time.
   If it has a kink in it, I avoid it. Pitting is not a problem... it's only cosmetic. So.... Nice old Disston saw, $2, sharpening $8 and for a total of $10, I have a saw that will be better than anything I can pick up at Sears, Home Depot or Lowes.
   Just my 2 cents worth.... SawdustSteve Long Island, NY

1. 
   DanCC | Jun 16, 2008 05:37pm | #7

   I have to find your yard sales.  The more I read, the more I think what I need to find is a 'panel' saw with a cross cut set. 

   Dan Carroll

   Edited 6/16/2008 12:06 pm ET by DanCC

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Jun 17, 2008 06:03am | #8

   Dan:You can pick up very good quality saws on that big auction site for very little. Sometimes they come in groups of rusty saws, of which only one or two are interesting. ALmost all will require de-rusting and sharpening, and a bit of cleaning or refinishing on the handles. All of this is pretty easy.If you get 4 or 5 for $15 plus about the same in postage ( as I recently did) and one is an eminently restorable turn of the century Disston crosscut with an excellent aged apple handle, and a couple of more are good saws from the twenties, why, you are money ahead. Garage sales also produce saws, but the good ones are infrequent. Flea market vendors these days seem to do too much research and want full prices.

4. 
   AdamCherubini | Jun 15, 2008 02:47pm | #5

   Dan,

   I'm offering a few saws for sale here:

   http://www.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.html

   These may not be the saws you are looking for, but there's some specific information there on what saws for what jobs that you may find helpful.

   Good Luck

   Adam

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/8/2008 9:20 am ET by AdamCherubini

1. 
   JeffHeath | Jun 18, 2008 07:40am | #9

   Are you making these yourself, or are you just schlepping for another mfgr.  I'm curious.

   Jeff

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Jun 18, 2008 02:48pm | #10

   I'm making them myself Jeff. I've been making saws since 2002 at least. I just never sold any! I make many of my own tools. Tool making is fun. The trick of it is learning to make them fast enough so that you can sell at reasonable prices without losing your puffy shirt! I'm not particularly good at that.And I think your yiddish is a little off. Schlepping is like running a mundane errand or carrying something heavy. "I'm going to schlep over to the deli for a bagel with a schmear (smear of cream cheese)."I think the word you want is "shilling", to endorse someone's product, often for pay. That happens a lot on the internet, but not from me.Best!Adam

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Jun 19, 2008 07:21am | #15

   Adam, I remember well a long post from you about a year ago wherein you said that you had been making saws, but that because of the time involved you couldn't even get $10 per hour by selling, IF you were to sell. At that time, you recommended Wenzloff, and said everyone should hurry and buy from him before he figured out the losing economics of the saw business and went on to do something else for a living.What has changed?Joe

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Jun 19, 2008 02:35pm | #16

   Nothing has changed. I heartily recommend Mike Wenz and his products. He's a professional saw maker and offers the level of quality and service that is essential for our community to survive. We should all be very thankful that he remains in business and do everything in our power to keep him so.http://www.wenzloffandsons.comIn terms of my hourly wage as a saw maker, (and thanks for reminding me, Joe) there's been very little change on that front as well! I'm currently on sabbatical from my day job, building furniture, doing a few minor home improvements, and this is something I wanted to do before my sabbatical ends. We've all heard the "hurry now, limited time offer" slogans. Well this one is accurate. 18th c tool making is something I've been thinking about since about 2002. I'm presently in a position where I can share my experience and abilities with woodworkers in this new way- supplying reproduction tools. Sharing has been a major component in my life as a woodworker. I don't see this as a major change. Adam

2. 
   Joe Sullivan | Jun 19, 2008 07:44pm | #22

   Adam:

   I hope you didn't take my wording to be a challenge.  Your answer makes perfect sense.  I myself am not even close to as skilled as you are and everything I do woodwise is slow.  Nevertheless, I keep doing it for the love and satisfaction of it.  If I were to make saws -- even disregardng the first few certain failures -- my hourly rate would be closer to 50 cents, I am sure.  Yet I might do it anyway.

   I did take your advice and order some of Mikes saws a while back-- and he has indicated that they might be forthcoming any day now.

   It sounds like a wonderful sabbatical.  As a guy who works for his own company, I'll never have one of those, but they do sound lovely.

   Joe

5. 
   MikeHennessy | Jun 15, 2008 11:18pm | #6

   Like so many other things, the answer depends on what you intend to do with it. I like the L-N dovetail saw a lot, but it isn't much use for ripping or crosscutting stock, or cutting large joints. So, different answer for different uses.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

6. 
   dkellernc | Jun 18, 2008 05:41pm | #11

   Dan - If you want an antique saw that is correctly set and sharpened, you might want to peruse Pete Tarran's site at http://www.vintagesaws.com.  He's one of the more expereinced saw people out there, and started (along with Patrick Leach) a return to high-quality hand saw manufacturing with Independence Tool's dovetail saws.

   Pete's prices aren't cheap, but you know what you're getting, which is a saw that's ready to go.  Buying a $20 dollar Disston at a garage sale is sometimes a bargain, but sometimes not.  And if you can't do it yourself, sending out a dull saw that needs the teeth re-shaped, re-filed and re-set could cost you at least $50 from an expert like Pete Tarran, Tom Law or the Wenzloffs.

7. 
   mdh | Jun 18, 2008 10:16pm | #12

   I'm a beginner hobbyist. I started off with a LN dovetail saw and used that to cut small tenons cheeks. Was slow at doing so but it got me acquainted with the saw and helped me to learn to cut to a line before attempting dovetails. My next purchase was a LN cross-cut carcass saw. That became very handy for a lot of applications including tenon shoulder cuts and also when I didn't want to cross cut at the chopbox. When I started on some large longer tenons, I bought the LN large tenon saw with a rip tooth configuration. Of the three, I use the carcass saw the most but love 'em all.

   The idea behind the progressive pitch is that it becomes more aggressive as you push the saw through so that the start of the cut is fine and accurate. At least that's what I gather from the info on it. I guess by theory it sounds like a good idea but don't own one.

1. 
   DanCC | Jun 19, 2008 02:47am | #13

   Looking at the numbers that Disston made, it is no surprise that they don't go for much on the auction sites.  You bring up a good point, that the cost of getting them sharp is not going to be cheap.  Given that you sharpen a saw fairly infrequently, it seems to me that it would be just about impossible for a hobbyist to become good enough at it to make it worth while.Dan Carroll

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Jun 19, 2008 07:17am | #14

   Dan:I have had good luck sending mine to Cookes. He charges $15.Joe

1. 
   boilerbay | Jun 19, 2008 05:05pm | #20

   Joe,Where is Cookes located at? Can you provide info?
   ThanksJohn

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Jun 20, 2008 12:17am | #25

   Here is the address I have.  Several months ago, I sent them four saws with the fee of $15 each plus return postage.  Go them back very nicely sharpened about a week and a half later. 

   COOKE'S SHARPENING & GRINDING SERVICE INC.1702 W. King St. York, PA 17404717-845-7297

   Joe

2. 
   DanCC | Jun 20, 2008 07:22pm | #26

   Good piece of iinformaton.  York is not that far up beyond the Mason Dixon line fromrFrederick Md.Dan Carroll

3. 
   boilerbay | Jun 20, 2008 10:43pm | #27

   Joe,
   Thanks very much. I'll give them a shout.
   John

2. 
   EdHarrison | Jun 19, 2008 03:45pm | #17

   >Given that you sharpen a saw fairly infrequently, it seems to me that it would be just about impossible for a hobbyist to become good enough at it to make it worth while.<I'll politely disagree, Dan. I'm a hobbyest and I sharpen my own saws, crosscut and rip. Once you have a good vise and good files and solve the problem of being able to see what you are doing, there's nothing physically complex about sharpening a saw. I equate it to tuning a guitar - I tune my guitars before I play them - the physical action of sharpening a saw is certainly less complex, with less variables, than tuning a guitar. Am I the best guitar tuner that ever lived? Certainly not, and neither am I the best saw sharpener. But I'm good enough at both to make it worthwhile. Recommend Tom Law's video to anyone interested in learning, as well as Lee's book on sharpening, and the first article FWW ran on the subject, but there are probably dozens of other sources as well,....

   Edited 6/19/2008 8:50 am by EdHarrison

1. 
   DanCC | Jun 19, 2008 04:19pm | #18

   Ed,

    

   It just strikes me that the physical skill, because you are likely to do it only once every month or so is not going to be as skilled.  Like playing/tuning your guitar, the more often you do it, the better you become, at least to the point of innate competence.  You do make a very good point about the 'helps' available and your qualification  about having the right tools is undoubtedly true.   I have to admit, that being basically cheap, the idea of paying someone to do something I can learn to do myself is abhorrent.  The question is, can I really learn to do it myself from the aids available?  Then where do you find good tools?  The price for saw sets is all over the place and info on which ones work well is a little bit thin.  Maybe that is an article idea for FWW.Dan Carroll

1. 
   EdHarrison | Jun 19, 2008 05:39pm | #21

   A saw set is one of those hand tools where you can buy the Stanley version on ebay or from Patrick Leach for one price, or you can buy the just-as-good-if-not-better Millers Falls version for a much cheaper price. At least that's the way it was several years ago. I also bought one of those Japanese-made saw sets from Garret Wade, or Highland Hardware, somewhere like that -the gold one - the Millers Falls saw set from the 1940s that I bought on ebay is much better.My first saw vise was handmade, as well as the first saw jointer. Later, of the Millers Falls No. 214 saw set, excellent saw vise, and saw jointer - all three of those tools were bought on ebay and all three of them the postage was more than the winning bid price of the tool. Pretty cheap, really,...The mill file that goes in the saw jointer - maybe $10 at Lowe's. The triangular files I spent pretty good money on (neighborhood of $5-6 each) because I decided to get the best available. I think I bought them from Pete Taran. Disclaimer is - I don't know what ebay's like these days - haven't bought any tools in a long time.Good luck, Ed

2. 
   DanCC | Jun 19, 2008 08:51pm | #24

   thanks for the info.  It is very tempting.Dan Carroll

2. 
   dkellernc | Jun 19, 2008 04:25pm | #19

   I also sharpen my own saws, but I'd disagree that bringing an abused saw back to life is an easily learned skill, particularly if the teeth need re-shaping and re-setting.

   That said, it can be done, but the original poster noted that he was a beginner with using hand saws, so my thought is that starting from scratch and trying to simultaneously learn handsawing, shaping, setting and filing is going to be quite a challenge. 

   My thought is that beginners should take small steps - that's why I recommended to someone getting into handplaning that they buy a L-N or LV plane that's ready to go before they buy a flea market Stanley and figure out how to correctly tune it (which could involve a lot of skilled work).

3. 
   Joe Sullivan | Jun 19, 2008 07:46pm | #23

   Ed:

   Been tuning guitars all my life.  Some days I sit there for long minutes wondering if I ever knew how.  Other days, they just sing.  Odd, eh?

   J

8. 
   dlwheel | Jun 21, 2008 04:49am | #28

   I've got a couple of Adria's which I have used for the past three years. I've tested a couple of LN saws as well. They are all okay. But it is in the sharpening IMO. Over the past several months I've been acquiring some "vintage" saws and sending them to Daryl Weir to sharpen. Now, without a doubt, these saws are not necessarily pretty to look at (you should have seen them before they were cleaned up); however, having been newly set and sharpened, they clearly out cut my Adria's.

   In short all that means is that the Adria's need to be sharpened in like manner; but I didn't spend more than $40 for any of these; and the sharpening added another $40. Also, the handles on all these are more refined IMO than the newer stuff.

   The top saw is a 14" Wheeler, Madden, and Clemson filed 12 ppi filed rip; the 2nd, is a 12" Jackson filed rip (has a really thin plate, super DT saw); the 3rd is a 10 Spears & Jackson filed X-cut (the plate was way to thick for DT's; however it is great for sawing the half tails and other X-cuts); the last is an 8" Disston; this saw looked ready for the trash bin when I got it. I apoligized to Daryl when I sent it to him and gave him permission to toss it. Regardless, Daryl straightened the plate; reground the teeth 16ppi and sharpened; it has a plate thinner than the Jackson. I've never used a better DT saw. I was amazed.

   I've got others, like a 16" Richardson Bros. and a 16" Disston, both excellent tennon saws. These would run in close to $200 or more each to find comparable new stuff.

   First, take your time and look around. Secondly, unless you are regularly cutting DT's and other joints with a saw, it takes a while to appreciate its strengths and distinguish its weaknesses from your (my) own inadequacies.

   
1. 
   DanCC | Jun 21, 2008 01:05pm | #29

   Those are very nice looking tools.  I have to admit to liking the feel so a good vintage tool in my hand.  Like I said in an earlier message, I am looking at starting with a panel saw  Xcut as that his the current piece of junk that is giving me the most headaches.  But is a nice old dovetail comes along, well it will likely come home. Dan Carroll

1. 
   dkellernc | Jun 21, 2008 05:34pm | #30

   Dan - Another source of vintage saws is TheBestThings.com.  The proprietor is very careful to scrupulously describe every saw and every defect (and all vintage saws have some bad news - I'd be very suspicious of a description of "perfect in every way" when applied to a 75+ year old tool).  He has expensive collector's saws on the site, but also reasonably priced more-recent vintage saws that are geared toward users.

1. 
   DanCC | Jun 21, 2008 09:37pm | #31

   I had not thought of them.  The couple of times I have done business with them, it has been a good experience.  Thanks for the lead.Dan Carroll