Do you have a mentor that has helped out .
I do not sharpen carving chisels on a water bath grinder or any motorized grinder.
A hand sharpened and leather stroping tool will keep its sharpness longer than a machine sharpened steel.
If you don’t believe me carve say for 6 hours a day 5 days a week and you will start see things differently. If you are not carving for long period of time you may not need or want to sharpen by hand and that is Ok. Lathe tools are different level of sharpness for me, so onto the grinder some of them will go.
There are different sharpness for different jobs.
I was talking to man building a dugout canoe at the local landing. He asked if I wanted to help and handed me what seemed like was dull adze at first glance. Never using one I started to work. The adzes works best that way, it will pull up a chip about the size of a thick potato chip and break it off on back side. If it where a sharp one it would have stuck or just taken a very thin slice.
I learned how to sharpen from Mary May who did a apprenticeship under Konstantinos Papadakis.
When ever I start to deviate from the best mode of operations of sharping or carving I can here her in the back of my head saying “how ya doin”. Sometimes I use a free floating rationale with a low low probability of success.
How did you learn to sharpen?
Do you have a mentor that has helped you out?
Fine Woodworking has been a mentor for me over many years.
Thanks to all here,
John
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Replies
I learned to sharpen carving tools from Phil Lowe and Will Neptune. The first thing Phil did was tell me the factory edge on my Swiss Made 8-10 gouge was wrong. He stuck the edge into his running Baldor grinder and said "now we'll do it right."
A truly sharp edge doesn't matter how you got there. Machine or hand. Sandpaper, diamond stone, ceramic, natural, whatever. Sharp is sharp.
“[Deleted]”
Ah, a fine post in what should be a separate category for forum posts - The Sharpening Hobby. :-)
Mentors - one may choose from a hundred or more sharpening "gurus", all of whom have made the mistake of thinking that because a method works for them it must be the only valid method. Personally I like to shop around for sharpening methods. (Well, this is part of The Sharpening Hobby pleasure, after all).
I do grok the OP's point about there being different kinds of sharp for different woodworking tasks, though. But it basically comes down to two features of the sharp edges: how strong are they (in terms of lasting and standing up to the required cutting operations); do they make the required quality of cut for the job?
Carving can benefit from low angle cutting edges and from smoothed (stropped) edges that will give a very clean cut but not easily fold or fracture. Angles as low as 15 degrees on knives used for details in green wood will work (with the right metal and a forgiving wood type). Mortise chisels cutting 'oles in oak will need to be 35 degrees and still won't stay ultra-sharp (or need to).
The type of metal used is also a consideration. Some steel-types can be very sharp but brittle. Others can be quite soft but still resilient for some tasks. And so forth.
*********
Anyroadup, I avoid becoming slave to some guru opinion or other, which allows personal discovery of what works for me at various tasks with various tools; and also supports the ongoing hobby of Trying Every Sharpening Method Their Is. :-)
Currently I'm experimenting with all sorts of carving knives but also axes and adzes. Soon I will have a stock knife to investigate the edge of! My eyes are getting a bit tired from watching 281 how-to-sharpen-you-knife vids though.
“[Deleted]”
Me, I find more wisdom in the mad French than in the old Germans. Those C18th philosophs were rather too fond of certainty, absolute truth and other modes of thought far too dismissive of alternatives.
Have you tried that Michel Foucault or even Jacki Derrida? These would allow any number of sharpening methods, so they would. :-) On the other hand, some of them would be, well, a bit mad.
*****
Incidentally, I tried a vid from Mary May but found her mode of explanation rather too obscure. (It was about gouges). She's not as obscure as a mad French philosopher but not exactly a model of verbal clarity. "The best teacher"? Well, not using video and words to explain technicalities.
Of course, this has nothing to do with her quality of carving; or even her methods of sharpening.
My own teachers have been (and still are) numerous. Many of them transmitted their wisdom (very clearly for the most part) via this magazine and its old forum Knots. Even this present forum has some good stuff in it, well explained and effective.
“[Deleted]”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpuZR6UQMLg
“[Deleted]”
I am a beginner carver. I am just starting my second semester of adult continuing ed night school. Our instructor has been carving for 20 years. His preference is to have a 15 degree bevel (such as Pfeil comes with) and to strop frequently (say every 10 minutes of use). If I recall, short of dropping a carving chisel, I think he said that is all I should need to do and all he has done on his carving chisels. Given this is a hobby for me (to help enhance my woodworking projects), it may be all I need. Can’t speak from personal experience yet so just passing along what I was recently taught.
“[Deleted]”
Thanks. Was a great video.
I do a little carving and generally hand strop after every use.
One impetus to buy a Tormek was inheriting a few carving chisels that my grandfather used. The Tormek got them sparkling polished and razor sharp with very little effort.
I tend to use the leather wheel to touch gouges and chisels up if they don't need more than that.
In general I prefer the jigged apparatus for sharpening as we amateurs don't really get enough practice time at pure hand sharpening to avoid the dubbed, faceted and otherwise mucked up bevels and edges. Even gouges can be more accurately sharpened with a machine and appropriate jig.
Personally I dislike the Tormek as it took forever to remove metal and required lots of moolah to be spent on various specialist jigs. I sold mine after about ten years and eventually got a Sorby ProEdge belt grinder with a flat platten and numerous belts, including a 3 micron 3M trizarc belt that gives a very good result. (only £12 as opposed to the £34,907 for a Tormek diamond wheel). :-)
Th ProEdge machine too uses specialist jigs for things like gouges but they're a lot less expensive than Tormek thingies.
***********
Having now become immersed in green woodworking, which uses all sorts of knives, gouges, axes, adzes and so forth, I find that many of them don't easily sharpen on the jigged machines. Gouges of a regular sweep are OK, as are longer knives but the many smaller knives and gouges with bends or other curls in them are more easily sharpened by hand using various bits of shaped wood - wrapped in leather or bare - impregnated with grinding or polishing compounds.
I gradually picked up from the various advisors on sharpening such stuff that its best to hone and keep honing an already sharp edge where possible. Once you have to sharpen from truly dull, the risk of mis-shaping an edge or bevel via hand sharpening/grinding goes up a lot.
One way of machine sharpening and honing of smaller tools that seems to reduce the risk of edge & bevel bodging is to use a leather or MDF wheel in a drill or slow bench grinder to hand hone or sharpen. It's quicker and also easier (because of the reduced time doing it and lesser muscle movements needed) to keep the tool at the right angle to avoid the bevel multi-facets and dubbed edges.
The smaller and strangely shaped edges can be sharpened then honed with such wheels, especially if you shape the MDF wheel rim to suit particular tool shapes like the inside of a gouge.
Honing compounds are queer things, with a great confusion about what they really contain (as opposed what they're supposed to); what the various colours signify; and so forth. In the the end I bought three small tubes of DMT diamond paste at 6, 3 and 1 micron size, which works wonders on a round leather-covered stick, a groove in a wooden platter or on the MDF wheels in a drill. The grading of the diamond is said to be very accurate (not so with many less expensive diamond pastes and goos). A very little goes a long way.
*************
Carving tool metals vary a lot. Some are softer but quickly sharpened or honed. Others are tougher but need many more honing strokes to get the required effect.
Edge geometry is also a tricky one, as very shallow angles will cut very nicely in the right wood but immediately fold or fracture with even one push into the more evil woods containing things like silica or tiny rock 'ard pin knots.
********
But its all a fine pleasure learning this new stuff, eh? Some folk have to go to work rather than phart about in a shed with toys!!
“[Deleted]”
Hello H,
Criticism is not to defame or take food from someone's mouth, especially when it's meant to point out a lack that could easily be filled. I don't criticise anything of Ms May's carving or her sharpening techniques (I'm not qualified to do so) only her poor presentational style in her Youtube videos. I'm not fit to judge carving or even some sharpening techniques but I'm expert at being a consumer of YouTube and other informational how-tos. :-)
Many experts at doing a subject are not expert at presenting how or why they do it. YouTube is full of them, as is every school you might want to attend on any subject. Teaching and presentation are skills in themselves but many who want to teach and present their other skills (such as carving or sharpening) are often oblivious to the need to become skilled at teaching and presentation per se.
For a contrast, consider many FWW articles, which have obviously has a great deal of improving editorial work done on them and are, as a result, clear and high-quality information.
Many Youtube videos could easily be improved if the presenter took time and effort to prepare scripts and a coherent program of what they want to impart, avoiding random babble, going off at a tangent, repeating the same point (often badly) many times and forgetting to include reasons or explanations of why recommended actions are proposed.
********
Being a fan is not a good thing for either the fan or the object of their uncritical praise. I certainly hope I don't have any! (Not likely, I know). No one is improved by sycophancy.
*****
Now, would you like to discuss sharpening and other technical aspects of carving tools or was this thread started as just a fan-splurge?
Lataxe
“[Deleted]”
“[Deleted]”
On a personal level, I find your reasons for posting criticism to be distasteful and trolling.
If someone asks for your feedback, fine. If not, move on.
“[Deleted]”
“[Deleted]”
“[Deleted]”
Hello H,
I'd be pleased and grateful if you'd like to point me at some vids by your favourites that you feel are of good presentational and informational quality. Mind, I'd like to know why you think them so, too ......
But your post was about sharpening techniques, although you haven't said very much about them other than making some rather definite statements about machine sharpening being inadequate and having had some infallible mentors. It would be good to discuss sharpening rather than mentors, though, don't you feel?
One way to avoid the blather and verbal wanderings of many ad hoc video presenters is to turn off the sound and just watch what they do. Often the lack of the distracting babble allows one's attention to focus on the actions which, in the end, are generally far more informative than the babble.
Sadly, this technique often reveals another lack in such vids - there's many minutes of the presenter stood babbling (doing look-at-me) and hardly any of the techniques shown about which the babble is supposed to be about. Cuh!
Of course, this is an observation from an inveterate babbler, little moi, an opinionated pest not inclined to join in mutual admiration club style discussions. Ironic, eh!? :-)
******
Anyroadup, would you like to put aside your somewhat delicate sensibilities for a bit and discuss the sharpening of awkward edges such as those found in carving? One topic might be a discussion of your contention that machine sharpening can never match hand sharpening for carving tools.
Incidentally, what do think about the unicorn sharpening technique? It employs a polishing felt or similar wheel on a grinder machine as the final stage to ultimate sharpness!
Lataxe, sensitive as an old brick that was once thrown through a window.
“[Deleted]”
I hereby give up attempts to obtain anything from you in the way of information or discussion.
But I do hope you can put aside the notion that not agreeing with you on every detail of your pronouncements is somehow trolling. How are you ever going to get to discuss anything with anyone; or learn anything beyond what seem to be ossified opinions that are skeletons without any flesh on 'em?
My Post #26
What is your Modus Hoperandi for hand sharping?
Where does the movement in your body start in carving and sharpening? Toes!
I lean forward into the my carving or stone shifting weight to balls of feet and toes. This movement will give you the equilibrium and power that you will need to sharpen and carve for longer period of time with the ability to start and stop your cuts.
Three points of contact will give you more control. Legs and hand tripod.
Forethought: Before making a new or difficult cut. Practice in the air above your master piece to learn the new muscle movements or to just remember the old ones.
Cheers
“[Deleted]”
“[Deleted]”
“[Deleted]”
Woodworking and integrated dharma. 🤔 The problem with translations is they are all different. I stick with English written dharma. It’s meaning is direct, no ignorant filter. 🙃
Yes,
We all be ignorant, we all be broken
I see you’ve covered your tracks 😁
“[Deleted]”
😄
“[Deleted]”
What is your Modus Hoperandi for hand sharping?
Where does the movement in your body start in carving and sharpening? Toes!
I lean forward into the my carving or stone shifting weight to balls of feet and toes. This movement will give you the equilibrium and power that you will need to sharpen and carve for longer period of time with the ability to start and stop your cuts.
Three points of contact will give you more control. Legs and hand tripod.
Forethought: Before making a new or difficult cut. Practice in the air above your master piece to learn the new muscle movements or to just remember the old ones.
Cheers
With cabinetmaking tools of the straightforward (and straight-edged) kind I always resorted to a sharpening guide system, after trying and failing to produce good edges entirely by hand. Probably lack of practice producing, or allied with, lack of skill.
With edges of carving and green woodworking tools, there are curves. Some degree of hand guiding the tool to get a good edge is unavoidable, even if a machine is used. This being so, it does seem fundamental to find a means to control the tool movement when sharpening with as little error as possible.
What you suggest about a good stance makes sense. The best explanation I found was from a knife sharpening YouTube bloke, who demonstrated that keeping hand, wrists, arms and as much else as possible in the same position, whilst moving the whole upper body as one, gave the best chance of keeping the edge of a tool at the right angle to the sharpening medium.
HIs point was that: the more body joints you move in trying to keep the edge at the right attitude to the sharpening medium, the more complex will be the control needed of your body's motor systems. If your upper body, including your grip on the tool, stays the same and only your legs or waist is moved to move the edge over the sharpening stuff, the greater the chance of you keeping the angles right.
But this gets difficult with some curved edges, such as those of gouges. They need to be rotated as well as held at the contant right angle of their bevel. Your wrists get involved. Skilled gouge twisters can manage to keep all right but for we inexperienced gouge sharpeners, there's going to many failures before we get it right.
And this is the general problem for all attempts at training oneself to exert fine motor control of a complex kind when one is an amateur. Professionals (apprentices) can spend hours refining those skills. Amateurs don't really have those hours to spare.
Don't quit now...
“[Deleted]”
This format makes it easy to cover one’s tracks. 😆
As an aside, you’ll have to find post #38. To understand the reply you’ll have to locate the posts that precede it. They are scattered throughout the thread.
I see I am in the wrong place.
Best of luck with all of your endeavors.
Mary May, Chris Pye, etc. They all have lessons on sharpening carving tools that work well when mastered. I bought a set of gouges from a retiring carver and they were polished to a brilliant, think mirror, finish. He said along the way he found that using a buffer to create a final polish / finish to his gouges after sharpening let him work easier and faster with a longer lasting edge. Something about removing the micro-scratches and reinforcing the leading edge. He quit using a strop in favor of this method. After adopting this method it does seem to work well. It turns out that it is also easier (think less tiring) to carve, especially in intricate details. Plus getting a more polished finish left behind on the wood surface is a plus.
I found that a powered buffing wheel just ruined the edge. Yes, it polishes to a beautiful shine. But it rounds -- dubs over -- the edge. Though it may be sharp, it changes the effective cutting angle. Instead of 25 degrees, you now had a tool that needed to be used at 40 degrees or above, making decent carving nearly impossible.
Like you, I've been investigating/discovering/learning the use of both a buffing and a stropping wheel to refine the edges of carving tools. It certainly seems to offer a means to keep gouges, adzes and even axes razor sharp without having to resharpen often.
The essential techniques seems to be: not to press the tool edge too hard on the buffer or honer "surface"; and to keep the angles right (i.e. very shallow) between the tool edge being buffed and the buffer "surface"). Even a momentary failure to do both these seems able to introduce a dubbing to the edge, especially if the buffing or honing medium is more rather than less abrasive.
The same rule seems to apply to hand honing and buffing. Pressing too hard even on a more solid surface like MDF charged with green honing compound or similar seems to increase the chance of dubbing. Sometimes its via inadvertently increasing the angle of the tool edge to the honing surface by the hard-press; and sometimes its a soft honing surface (like leather) being depressed to effectively change the honing angle.
Its worth finding videos that demonstrate the better ways to both hand and machine hone/buff.
*********
This week I got a pair of Hungarian adze (with two different sweeps) for bowl-hewing. They came with an outside bevel, with both that and the inside of the adze blade polished to a mirror shine. The edges were also very sharp indeed.
However, when I tried using them on a test chunk of green ash, they failed to bite well. I turned to the FWW info from Dave Fisher concerning the adze ..... .
In doing so I learnt that many adze come from the manufacturer with a sharp edge but also with too much convexity in the bevel due to a final sharpening using a rotating flap sanding wheel. This effectively prevents the adze from biting out chunks when it's whacked into the wood the correct way/angle to do so for the adze configuration.
I reground the bevel (on a Sorby ProEdge flat-platten grinding machine) to make it flat with the same 30 degree angle, rather than convex; then re-honed and buffed carefully to re-establish the mirror finish and the sharp edge.
Success! Both adze now bite and chew out the chunks like Desperate Dan with a whole-cow-pie!
**********
The same syndrome (a convex bevel) seems to be a problem also with gouges and other carving tools. The convexity of the bevel stops the tool from being able to bite at the correct shallow angle. Apparently many folk inadvertently introduce convexity of the bevel gradually by honing and stropping without being careful to keep the angle of blade to strop constantly at the right angle.
Lataxe
I just picked up the Tormek Darth Vader edition. The diamond wheel is wonderful, especially the flat side that stays flat. It came with a pre-charged synthetic "stropping wheel" that is more rigid than the leather strop wheels I've used before. I don't think I'll use it for straight edges, but the early result on a carving gouge is promising.
@john_c2 - I found the same issue you mentioned until I learned to not be aggressive and to hold the angle with the buffing wheel so that it wasn’t creating the blunt end you experienced. It’s a fine line for sure but the results are worth it. It’s fast and the edges are lasting longer and the effort to carve is reduced making for a better overall result. I’m not saying it’s the holy grail for all but it has been found to work very well. Like all things in WW, it’s gotta work for you.