Replies

1. 
   BG | Jun 05, 2003 03:37pm | #1

   Dalewood,

   Great question, I've been chasing this issue for about 6 months now and, unfortunately, can offer little advise.  I'm of the opinion that a good course or two would save a lot of time and money because no matter how much I read and experiment I really need a pro to tell me what 'sharp' is, what a well 'tuned' plane is, even (hate to admit this) what 'flat' is, etc, etc. I will say that the LN dovetail (rip) saw was my best investment so far...it forces/teaches you how to hold it and Ian Kirby's dovetail book is excellent and teaches you how to practice. 

   One thing you will need almost right off the bat is a good workbench.  It's gotta hold the stock, provide a flat surface to use as a reference and provide a solid base that won't move when planing. 

1. 
   Dalewood | Jun 05, 2003 03:45pm | #2

   BG, I am right there with you on the workbench. That was going to be my next fixture to build. I have plenty of room in my shop and now all I have to do is decide on a bench design that I like......Wow there must be a million different designs out there!!!!

   Edited 6/5/2003 9:16:36 AM ET by Dalewood

1. 
   BG | Jun 05, 2003 04:30pm | #3

   Dalewood,

   There are a million designs for workbenches.  I took to heart the comment on Bob's workbench web page that you'll build three over a life time at least...kinda takes the pressure off...lol.

   I have had mine for about 6 months and am already starting to see some of the shortcommings in its design. However, there are workarounds...and the next bench will be better suited to my needs.

1. 
   Dalewood | Jun 05, 2003 05:10pm | #6

   BG, I have visited Bobs website and I am considering building the bench his son built. It is inexpensive and made from pine so if I mess it up it....which is likely,  it wont be a great loss!!!  LOL

   Edited 6/5/2003 10:20:52 AM ET by Dalewood

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 11, 2003 03:24am | #22

   What is Bob's website? 

2. 
   timberrattler | Jun 05, 2003 06:14pm | #8

   the only problem with making a nice workbench. You need a workbench to do it.

1. 
   Dalewood | Jun 05, 2003 06:23pm | #9

   Hey I thought I was the only one who thought like that!!!  But you are right.  It is hard to hold boards and other items stable enough to work on, on sawhorses and such as that, although I have done it. 

1. 
   jvs | Jun 05, 2003 06:49pm | #10

   Not really; two sawhorses and a wall to brace the top sections against while rough planing did the trick.  Good hand tool bench (better with some sort of tail vise, but holdfasts work fine for now); at least 500 pounds of maple and oak...

   leg vise bench

   /jvs

3. 
   SoCalDon | Jun 05, 2003 07:28pm | #11

   I heartily agree with your thoughts on taking a class or two for exposures to the experts. I took a course on "Woodworking with Handtools" at the local community college which turned out to be the best under $100 investment (without the tool costs) I ever made. I learned how to sharpen chisels, tune up a basic Stanley #4 plane, set up a scraper and hand cut dovetails. It launched me down the slippery slope of hand tool usage in shot order! An alternative would be getting to know an experienced woodworker and getting continuing advice from him (or her).

1. 
   BG | Jun 05, 2003 08:32pm | #12

   SoCalDon,

   I've been thinking of a plan to entice an expert into providing some training......

   1. Get a six pack of Guiness, a piece of maple and a #4 Stanley 

   2. Go to Richard J's shop in Houston

   3.  Place board in vise, put Stout at one end of board and Richard J at the other end of board with plane in hand. 

   4. Ask Richard if he'd like a drink.

   With any luck at all he'll take the shortest route to the Stout and I'll learn how to plane...

   What do you think, will it work?...lol

1. 
   SoCalDon | Jun 05, 2003 08:45pm | #13

   I don't know about this approach; by the time the six pack of Stout was finished his technique might not be worth emulating. Coors light might be a better choice but then again would the Coors be sufficient enticement? I guess the answer lies in his tolerance for beer. I myself have found it beneficial to stow all sharp edged tools when the beer is flowing (don't ask me how I learned this).

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 06, 2003 05:48am | #16

   Ha, ha, you pair. I'm not a hand tool anorak though. Sure, I can usually make a plane work satisfactorily, but I don't take a particular interest in them, no expert of any note, and I don't collect or revere them as others do. And I certainly don't eschew the use of power tools.

   I haven't read all the comments in this thread, so I've no idea where it started or where it's going. I just saw my name and excessive fondness for beer mentioned. Coors wouldn't even get my little finger twitching, unless there was a calamity, such as all dark beer brewers going out of business.

   WoodCentral might be another home for hand tool fans-- to add to the suggestion posted by someone earlier-- sorry, forgotten who now-- must be the beer. A lot of the old Badger Pond crowd migrated to this forum-- http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/msgset.shtml 

   The hand tool enthusiasts there seem to have a fondness for calling all small electric powered tools 'tailed apprentices' which I find sort of amusing. I'd hate to be without things like my electric router, but I can understand an amateur with no real pressure to produce wanting to work quietly in the old ways. There are even one or two professionals that drop in here who seem to be able to earn a crust or two without resorting to power woodworking. Slainte. Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

4. 
   clarkie | Jun 07, 2003 03:03am | #17

   BG greetings~ just read your answer to Dalewood. you mention a book by Ian Kirby. can you tell me if this is available. I have  seen articles by him in fww in the past and this book sounds like one that would  appeal to me. any help would be appreciated. many thanks  bob

1. 
   BG | Jun 07, 2003 04:31am | #19

   Wannabe,

   The Complete Dovetail by Ian Kirby published by Linden.  I bought mine at Woodcraft.  He's got some neat little tricks in his methodology...enjoy

1. 
   clarkie | Jun 11, 2003 02:44am | #21

   thanks for the reply. will look for the book. i see by your bio. that you are in the boston area. i lived in waltham till i was 13. couldn/t wait to get out of there. spent my school vacations in barre mass. moved there after the 9th grade. moved here to wilmington n.c. 12 years ago. the winters are great but the summers can be brutal. we are headed to mass. in a few weeks. again thanks for the info on the book.  bob

2. 
   Napie | Jun 05, 2003 04:54pm | #4

   The best advice I can give is to NOT buy new tools.  Hit the flea markets and fix up what you buy.  It is a great way to learn how these tools work and you save quite a lot of money in the process.

   For two years the only power tools I had were a Skill M77 and a big red 1/2" drill motor.  I bought old planes and learned to flatten pallet lumber, and I still cut dovetails with a 50 cent garage sale backsaw and a homemade bowsaw, just like Tage Freid.  Mike Dunbar's book on refurbishing old tools is a great resource. 

   Tools to start: A back saw, chisels, 1/4"-1", low angel block plane, #4 smooth plane, #7 joiner plane.

   Remember, "a 2 dollar tool and 10 dollar skills are far better than a 10 dollar tool and 2 dollar skills".

3. 
   Len | Jun 05, 2003 05:06pm | #5

   There are a lot of articles on how to use and tune up hand tools. But what you really need to do is practice.

   A great book for your library is "A woodworkers Guide to Hand Tools"

   http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070347.asp

   First and formost learn how to properly sharpen your tools. Buying used tools is a great idea. There are a lot of hand planes out there that are still usable. If you can find out if there are any PAST shows in your area that's great place to aquire old tools. And if you hang out and chat with the guys, not just the sellers but the buyers too. You will find a wealth of information.

   Good luck,

   Len

4. 
   jvs | Jun 05, 2003 05:44pm | #7

   The question is a little hard to answer without knowing what kind of work you do and what you are looking to be able to do with hand tools.

   I have always worked with a hybrid, at first because I didn't have the space or equipment, and now because it is quieter, less dusty, more satisfying, and in many cases, comparable in speed to working with power tools.  I have always done jointing and flattening with planes, but thickness and rip on power equipment.  Many times, jointery is dramatically faster with power, but if it is a small number of mortises, a brace and chisels are not much slower than the combined jigging, setup, and work time of a router.

   As for getting started, I would highly recommend the Badger Pond archive CD for more background, and ask questions from there. 

   I would also recommend *against* the flea market approach for "getting started tools."  If you have limited experiance with using hand tools, restoring and tuning them is going to be more rewarding and less frustrating when you have some miles under your belt and know how they are *supposed* to perform.  Before that, you will never know if the problem is the tool, your tuning and setup, or... you. 

   There are lots of makers of extremely high quality tools out there now.  If you need references for a specific one, people will be happy to point out favorites....

   /jvs

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/5/2003 10:49:06 AM ET by jvs

5. 
   user-17340 | Jun 05, 2003 09:11pm | #14

   Flea market and yard sales are usually a good sources for hand tools.

   Good hunt

   Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Québec

6. 
   JeffKurtz | Jun 06, 2003 03:39am | #15

   An interesting new forum dedicated to hand tools.  Believe it began when Badger Pond died.

   Jeff

   http://www.traditionaltools.com/

7. 
   MarkRoderick | Jun 07, 2003 04:26am | #18

   Seems to be a lot of this going around, which is great. I can tell you what little I know.

   The bench is a great place to start. I made that Bob's bench and it's great. The only thing I would say: don't build the top out of 2x lumber. At least where I live, the 2x lumber is so unstable that you end up spending way, way too much time trying to get the kinks and warps out of the wood, plus the wood is full of knots which makes handplaning it very difficult. Buy some douglas fir instead.

   Buy any good book on sharpening, like Leonard Lee's at Lee Valley. Then buy some glass and sandpaper and start by using the "scary sharp" method of sharpening, as described in various web sites and articles. It's the simplest, cheapest, most idiot-proof (spoken as one who would know) method of sharpening tools. You can always switch to water stones or whatever, but this is the way to start. Buy the honing guide from Lee Valley also. This assumes you own or will buy a bench grinder with good white or pink wheels.

   Buy some blue marples chisels and then. . . .splurge on at least one plane and one saw by Lie-Nielsen. If you have the money buy three planes from Lee Nelson: a low angle adjustable mouth block plane; a #4 or #4 1/2 smoother; and a jack. If you don't have the money buy just one of them from L-N and buy the others from Veritas (Lee Valley) or someone else. Same with the handsaws (buy the L-N dovetail). I really would recommend having a L-N plane because then you know what a plane should do.

   Buy the Handplane Book from Taunton. Great book.

   All that stuff together doesn't cost too much, depending on how much of it you get from L-N. Then just start playing around with it.

8. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 08, 2003 06:55am | #20

   I would agree basically with markroderick.  I grew up in a hardware store and have been around a lot of tools all my life.  But, it wasn't until a few years ago that I started getting serious and started learning more about handtools.

   First, 99.9% of planes and chisels don't come ready to use (Lie Nielsen planes do).  They may feel sharp, but they need to be sharpened and honed.  If you are going to use chisels and planes, learn to sharpen them.  Someone mentioned scary sharp system or the Lee book and video on sharpening -- both excellent.  Plus, there are all sorts of excellent approaches and equipment to sharpening.

   Second.  Having bought a number of inexpensive new plus good old dovetail saws -- save time and buy the Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw.  I have learned to sharpen and set the saws, including regular handsaws, and I enjoy using them, but on this one item (dovetail saw) I haven't found one that beats the Lie-Nielsen.

   Third, I bought several used Stanley planes and have learned to restore them.  Unfortunately, I lost control somewhere along the line and now have over 100.  Although I have learned a lot and enjoy taking an old plane, cleaning it, flattening it, sharpening it , and making it a good user, I will probably begin selling most of them and get a couple of  L-N planes (no, I don't work for them or even know them).  They are simply top of the line quality.

   I started with a blue Marples set of chisels.  Sold them to my son and bought a set of Ashley Isles and Sorby chisels.  Love 'em.

   It all comes down to time and experience.  Like someone said, a $2 tool in the hands of a skilled person can result in a $10 job.  But, a $10 tool in the hands of someone unskilled will be lucky to get a $2 job done.

   Just jump in with both feet, and go for it. 

   Alan - planesaw

9. 
   DavidxDoud | Jun 11, 2003 04:46am | #23

   invest in a set of Roy Underhill books - (The Woodwrights Shop,  etc) - they will give you the breadth of knowledge to understand the nature of human powered woodworking - along with the jigs and fixtures to make the tools work

   sharp is the key - whatever tool you are using, a set of stones/files/etc to maintain the edges of tools are essential  - used tools will usually need a careful grinding to start the sharpening process - -  A Manual on Sharpening Hand Woodworking Tools - Coggin/Armstong/Giles is a straight-forward tome - basically a high-school shop manual which explains the 'what, how, and why' of everything from axes to saws to planes to augers to screwdrivers - a wonderful resource,  if you can score a copy-

   a solid table/workbench, hopefully with a wood vise - a stanley/bailey #4 plane (they're cheap,  get two and set them up differently) - a panel smoother/jointer (plane) about 18" long - and a small block plane - maybe a cabinet scraper,  if you're into that type of finished surface - - a collection of chisels,  1/4" - 1/2" - 3/4" - 1" - 1 1/4" - 1 1/2"  - and a mallet with which to strike them -

   if you have powered saws,  I'd put hand saws as a second tier aquisitions,  except for a dovetail saw or two (different sizes,  buy new ones,  ready to go,  from a reputable supplier) -

   hand augers I put in the same catagory as the saws - I have a couple of augers and a good selection of bits,  but mostly reach for the power drill -

   and a project - a simple box is a good place to start - then build a dovetail one - aquire/upgrade your tools as you need to complete your selected project -

   good luck - DOUD (a 'hybrid' wood butcher)

10. 
    ToolDoc | Jun 11, 2003 07:08pm | #24

    I found this cool site that sells Disston Handsaws & other brands at Hefty prices plus tons of usefull info..

    http://www.vintagesaws.com/   

                                                            ToolDoc

1. 
   BG | Jun 11, 2003 08:21pm | #25

   Tooldoc,

   I picked up a D-8 26" Disston at the flea market a couple of weeks ago and brought it home last night after I had it sharpened, etc.  Wow! feels just like a brand new LN dovetail saw only a lot bigger. 

1. 
   ToolDoc | Jun 11, 2003 09:12pm | #26

   BG : The old Disstons are oldies but goodies, I have a couple of D23s there great..

                                         ToolDoc