during my winter break i tuned four hand planes. i followed derek cohen’s on line directions. he has some excellent tips, including a suggestion to attatch a large magnet to the front of the blade to act as a handle during flattening and polishing. my results were good. flat sole, perpendicular to the sides, flat frogs, square chip breaker, sharp and square blades and each surface that makes contact with wood was polished to a bright finish. one of my goals in all of this is to be able to cut the end grain of my dovetails and pins. although i feel that i did my best in tuning the planes, cutting the end grain still feels dodgey. not clean, easy and crisp as i had hoped for. any suggestions, tips, admonitions or ideas as to how i might achieve this skill would be most welcome.
thank you
eef
Edited 1/13/2009 1:55 pm ET by Eef
Replies
Use a low angle block plane.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Take a light cut. Try skewing the plane when you make a pass.
I cut endgrain all the time with my regular #4 bench plane.
Any plane with a reasonably sharp blade will cut endgrain.
F.
Come on guys ! Eef has worked his butt off here ! Give him a break !
Eef ; wet the end grain.
I used to wet the end grain with distilled water but these smarter than me guys and gals on Knots taught me that denatured alcohol or paint thinner may be best. Doesn't rust the plane or swell the wood.
skewing the plane is very good advice as well but wet a little first.
by the by
For the magnet on the blade thing that causes the metal cut off to stay on the blade and load up the abrasive. I recommend double back tape. Or actually what I recommend is well made blades that are flat from the supplier. Thank you Veritas !
roc
Edited 1/13/2009 4:52 pm by roc
Edited 1/13/2009 4:53 pm by roc
roc,
remember the magnet that wiley coyote used in his unrelenting pursuit for roadrunner meat? you know, the super-strong horse shoe shaped kind? i kid you not, as i lapped, it literally drew towards itself every bit of metal dust. there was none on the sandpaper. it was all out of the way of the blade and arranged in lovely little patterns on the magnet. cool, huh?
eef
Edited 1/13/2009 6:04 pm ET by Eef
>lovely little patterns on the magnet<Nice ! There was none on the underside of the blade and around the sides to go back and forth between the blade and the grit ? ! ?Magnetized drill bits and cutters are my nemesis ! Yes I demag with soldering gun field when it happens but still slows up the show.I get the feeling I am about to learn something again ? It must be the horse shoe shape ? I was picturing the block of magnet style.
Rocket,
"Yes I demag with soldering gun field "
Can you explain that further?Philip Marcou
Hello sir,I just figured I would get some people telling how to do that and I wanted to prevent taking up more space but here I am doing it.Well lets say you have a drill bit that is all magnetized. As you have probably experienced the swarf sticks to it and can jamb the bit in the hole or not toss the chips aside when you pull bit up to clear flutes. This is especially a problem on the tiny 1/16" bits when drilling steel in a deep hole say 1/2" to 3/4" etc. I say this mostly for our readers so they get the problem.If you take a regular old soldering gun like a weller 450 watt that has two ends to the tip so you have roughly a loop that you can poke the drill bit through you turn on the gun and just pass the bit back and forth and it demagnetizes the cutter. Bob's your uncle.It sounds counter intuitive but I think you can magnetize stuff the same way but I have not spent time doing that. I can't figure out where I learned that one. I thought it was a book called The Sensuous Gadgeteer by Bill Abler but did not find it when I looked. Oh well the book is fun any way if you find a copy of that.Did you read the description of coating vessels with glass and " The . . . way of applying epoxy to metal vessels . . . by spraying with in-flight mixing. ie the gun has 2 nozzles and the components are mixed as they leave the gun. Apart from the easier cleanup this allows very rapid setting epoxies to be used." in the tread titled " Epoxy Finish Problem " ? Not that I will be trying that any time soon but there sure are some interesting people here.hope demag is of interest
rocEdited 1/14/2009 2:10 am by rocEdited 1/14/2009 2:13 am by roc
Edited 1/14/2009 2:31 am by roc
Rocky,
Thanks for that . I even have a suitable OLD soldering gun in the form of a Wen 400 watt which I got on my 16th birthday...
So that should cure the small items problem as in drill bits etc- now for the big things like plane soles and irons which come off the surface grinder with about 500lbs of pull on them? I have been borrowing a full on demagnetiser-but the source has packed his spiders and re-located.....Copy?Philip Marcou
P.S. I think I will avoid the book-magnetism is the bane of my life.
Edited 1/14/2009 2:59 am by philip
You might try one of these. I have used them on things other than picture tubes and they work well.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Thanks Don, I will speak to some electronics boys right here-they should have one or similar for me to try.Philip Marcou
CopyWell this is getting to be my solution for everything:rather than tuning on magnetic function of surface grinder just use double back tape : )Just kidding. There must be a scrap yard some where in that country where you can pick up an old welder; big copper coils etc. maybe you can rig something from that.Just out of curiosity; what happens if you turn off grinder table, pull off said magnetized plane, then put it back on and turn on and turn off table ? Sounds good doesn't it.May be time to visit that Metal meet.com discussions site. I was over there snooping around. A wild bunch.The answer is probably in my 1943 general physics book if i would go study it.In other words i cant help you/you'r on your own bub : )
Edited 1/14/2009 3:20 am by roc
thanks for responding,
i can't wait to try the denatured alcohol, i assume this acts as a lubricant. i did not know that any plane would work. my arsenal consists of: three stanleys, a jack a smoother and a 91/2 block. does one attack from the flat surface of the box towards the end grain? or from mid-air, so to speak, towards the end grain. ive been woodworking for a while now but im longing to move away from the machines and towards more and more handwork.
eef
> assume this acts as ####lubricant. It softens the wood as far as I can tell. Just lubing with wax on plane did not help much so I think softens is the word. Like green wood is easier to work. >i did not know that any plane would work.Depends on the wood. Ian Hartley uses a bevel down 4-1/2 finish for endgrain. I have several low angles and banged the heck out of the blades, dulled fast etc so did not help much until wet stuff helped.> does one attack from the flat surface of the box towards the end grain? or from mid-air, so to speak, towards the end grain.Depends on the wood that the drawer side or what ever is made of. I like to go from mid air tward the side but can get tear out when you get down flush and take that final pass that cuts the side as well as the pin ends. Low angle with a bit steeper sharpening angle helps. Kind of goes against conventional wisdom of low angle plane and low sharpening angle for end grain but I was just dinging up the blade edge with low low config.If you want to go from side across endgrain and off the work then put a back up board on the end to prevent splintering off the end of your work. This gets tedious so I try not to do it. Also the end grain of this board needs to be grit free so make a fresh cut end.> from the machines . . . towards more and more handwork.Can make your understanding of machine work better as well.Me . . . I am just too cheep to buy the machines I really need. : )rocEdited 1/13/2009 6:40 pm by roc
Edited 1/13/2009 6:45 pm by roc
roc,
i appreciate all of your input. yeah, man, that magnet trick is great. but it served, among other things, to deepen my respect for good ole derek. his tutorials and articles are nothing but helpful. i googled tuning hand planes and that's where i came across his clear step-by-step instruction.
thanks again,
eef
> respect for . . . derek. his tutorials and articles are nothing but helpful.Cool ! gonna try it
My appologies to Derek Cohen
roc
"but it served, among other things, to deepen my respect for good ole derek. his tutorials and articles are nothing but helpful."
There you go. You need to standby to help when Derek takes flak from those who like making disparaging remarks about his interests and passions concerning woodwork.Philip Marcou
Eef,
You are now likely to get 10000 different answers....
I have not read the foregoing posts so if toes are tread on I offer 10000 apologies.
Anyone who tells you to use a block plane for this is demonstrating that he has not had a lot to do with levelling end grain as in dovetails etc. (My impression is that the typical block plane is the #91/2 formati.e this is what people mean when they refer to a block plane). However, if one has a hefty "block plane" that weighs at least 5lbs and is bevel up at 12 degrees that is different- it will do the job with ease.
You need something with some heft and the COMMON plane that fits that bill is a #51/2 size, or the upmarket Canadian equivalents.This will enable you level the end grain with ease and smooth the long grain surfaces at the same time.
I give this advice with solid wood chest carcasses etc and drawer sides in mind as the main candidates.
Eeef,
I echo Philip - a low angle plane (cutting angle 37 - 40 degrees from bed of, say, 12 degrees with bevel up blade of 25 degrees) having heft and a skew blade seems to work best on end grain, especially when it's little islands of end grain sticking out of a box-side in the form of tail, pin or finger-joint ends.
For a very suitable item to this purpose consider the Lie Nielsen LN140 skew-blockplane. It has heft but is still small enough to apply easily to quite small box sides. The low angle and the skew combine to shave pin, tail and finger ends (box's not yourn) very cleanly indeed. But the plane is also very versatile and can be used for many other purpose, being as how it has a side that comes off to reveal a nicker (it's then a rebate plane) and a fence.
As to the technque for shaving them ends nicely: always plane into the field of the box-side, never facing out over an edge, or breakout will occur. I usually begin with a push across one corner slightly towards the centre of the box side, starting with the nose of the plane resting on top of a pin/tail/finger end or three. As the pin/tail/finger end at the corner gets shaved down, I move along the edge to flatten the next one. At some point, reverse the box and plane from the opposing corner or that at the other end of the edge.
Take thin shavings, as being impatient and trying to take thick ones is what will catch you out, with a lump breaking out of a tail/pin/finger corner or edge. As you get the ends near-level with the box side, be careful to make even thinner cuts and go with the grain of the box-side; you risk taking a swathe out of that side if you're not careful.
Lataxe, currently making a finger-jointed cherry box for his Marcou minis and their gubbins.
"Lataxe, currently making a finger-jointed cherry box for his Marcou minis and their gubbins"
We await pictures with fervid anticipation....Philip Marcou
Actually I prefer the ordinary 45 degree plane (#51/2 or similar) to those small block planes or bigger block planes that are cutting at low angles ie below 45 degrees because there is the end grain to cut but also long grain combined- otherwise one levels the end grain but tears up the long stuff....Philip Marcou
Hello all,
This has been a most interesting thread and I'm hoping I can get some guidance on my next plane acquistion.
Currently, I've got a stanley std angle block, and and old #3 and #5 (both stanley). My baby is a LV shoulder plane that has opened my eyes to what a handplane can actually do...
Here's my question--what's next? I've been basically planning to get a LN low angle block plane next, but other options are a LV BV jointer (or smoother) or to invest in really good blades for the planes I have. I'm also interested in making my own wooden ones eventually... (I'm afraid i probably have more enthusiasm that time though...)
For power tools I have a planer, TS and a very good bandsaw and am in the market for a jointer. Because I may be moving in the next year or two, i've also toyed with the idea of putting the jointer cash toward hand planes and trying get away with a planer sled and jointer plane... Importantly, i definitely dig the hand tool route, but also have access to local timbers that I can mill myself (hence the bandsaw).
OK, so that's a couple of questions in there... Thanks in advance to all!
Hi eef
Many thanks for the kind words, and I am pleased that the articles helped. That's what the website is for.
For all, a note about the magnet I used. It was a switchable one from my dial indicator. That is, you can switch the magnet on and off.
In the times I have used it I have not experienced it magnetising a blade. I check for this by switching off the magnet. When I do so all the swarf drops away. By the way, this is a useful way to keep the swarf off the sandpaper - just collect it on the blade and empty it directly into the trash.
View Image
The article in question: Lapping the backs of blades. (This was written using the data collected when evaluating a Galoot Tools plane blade almost 2 years ago).
To plane the end grain of pins and tails I use the LV LA Jack in low angle mode (if the raised ends are thick), a LA block plane (if the raised ends are moderate), and a wide (say 2") firmer chisel if just a snitch needs removal.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 1/14/2009 4:18 am ET by derekcohen
Thanks ! That's usin' the old noggin. I hate the double back tape. It leaves goo on blade. Some of my blades I bought in the last few years have some mild magnetism. Glad this won't make it happen.I have them hanging on nails on wall. If they have some magnetic attraction it is possible one will yank the next one off the nail and onto the floor when I reach for a fresh blade.
Derek,I don't understand all of this blathering about cutting down the tails. Why not do it the right way? :-) Set your depth so that the surface is proud of the tails. That way you plane the entire side, and bring it down to the height of the tails minus a thousandth or so. That way if you are doing drawers, you can be more accurate in making the drawer to the correct width. Have fun,
Mel Remember, on even days of the month in the Northern Hemisphere, Tails are done first. It is the opposite in the Southern Hemisphere. Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, the OP did not specify what the dovetails were on. I think you are assuming it is a drawer. But it might be a box. If it were the latter, then I would not want to plane down a whole side as this would reduce its thickness. As it is, I - and others - simply responded to a request for a strategy to pare endgrain.
Wait a minute ... your hero Rob Cosman always works with raised tails. Does this mean that you are no longer his disciple?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,ME? A disciple of Rob Cosman? I don't think so.One can safely assume that I am a disciple of whoever will give me the best deal.Someday, but not now, I would love to have a conversation with you about the most important issue in Knots -- How to evaluate advice. When it comes to figuring out solutions to problems and issues, I read a lot. Then I take what "seems" to make sense and try it out. If I decide to use that as a modus operandi, then it is because I found it worked, and not because someone else recommended it. I did enjoy two days with Rob Cosman a few months ago. The things I saw him do became "existence proofs" to me -- I see it done so I know that it is possible for someone to do it. Some of the things that I saw Rob do appealed to me. Some seemed like overkill. The thing I enjoyed most about Rob is the same thing I enjoy about you -- his persona. He is, without a doubt, the best salesman that I have ever seen, and in my work at NASA, I saw some big-time salesmen. He lives to sell. As with most of the well known woodworking characters, the thing he sells best is ....... Yup, you guessed it. I went down to Woodcraft a few nights ago to use some of their machines, and there was a "class" about to start. The guy who was going to conduct it was new to me. He is a local guy who does architectural millwork and restoration. This guy carries around a set of Lie Nielsens that would choke a rhinoceros, and he uses them daily, along with lots of other tools. Anyway, he gave a three hour talk on hand planes, including sharpening. BEST DARN TALK on handplanes I have ever come across. The reason is: no BS. They guy was not uppity. He had nothing to prove. He is not "in love with" handplanes. They are merely good tools to do some of the things he needs to do. He has a very easygoing approach. He answered all questions with examples of what he actually does every day. This was not like Rob's talk. Joe got shavings as thin as Rob's although he didn't make any fuss about it. Rob on the other hand, had a Mitutoyo micrometer to measure the thickness of his shavings. Nice showmanship. With Joe, there was absolutely no showmanship at all. COMPLETELY DEVOID of showmanship. All he had was a high degree of mastery of his toolset. Joe also makes very nice furniture, and it taking a series of courses in making Chippendale type furniture from George Slack, a very capable furniture maker in Virginia. By the way, George's next class will focus on making a highboy. The tuition is $3800, and that does not include materials. EEEEEEHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA. He costs more than David Savage. :-) Have fun.
Mel
PS the Gothic tracery carving is coming along very nicely. I am doing my fifth now. Three are of the same piece. I did that as an experiment in "massed practice". Very interesting from an introspection standpoint. I found myself doing each one using different tools and approaches. The one I am finishing up now is the most complex. The design is by Chris Pye. The others were designed by Fred Wilbur, who also lives here in beautiful Virginia.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Derek,
Despite his claim to have thought it up out of the purfekness of his logic-organ, Mel got that "plane the sides down instead of the tail-ends" meme from one o' them olden woodworkers, a Tage or similar. He has just forgot that he picked it up from the memespace. (The extensive FWW memespace, in all likelihood).
Lads who claim "independent minds" are forever reusing memes and pretending they are original thoughts. Similar lads are forever also trying to register design aspects of this and that (including furniture) as "theirs" when in fact the emblems and shapes have been in the common ownership for centuries.
Gawd! The Century of The Self!!
Any road up, it's time Mel larnt how to make NK-style drawers, which are functionally and aesthetically a much better approach to drawer making than them so-called piston fitters, which will soon stick when it rains a bit, unlike the NKs. Also, he can then plane down half a dozen tail and pin ends (area 1.7 sq. ins.) instead of 3 acres of drawer sides.
Lataxe, a drawer-contovertialist
David,
"which will soon stick when it rains a bit, unlike the NKs."My drawers will never stick. I soak them in WD40 for a few days and rub lard on the runners. They work like greased lightning. As far as me being "independent", I am not sure about that. It was just a few weeks ago, you were accusing me of being just the opposite. Since I believe everything you say, you are going to have me spinning around in circles. I wonder what independence really means. Is it like Freedom, which BF Skinner said is defined by its limitations. I, like all of us, have a bunch of obvious biases. I wonder - did I adopt those biases consciously or were they foisted on me by others. I think it is somewhere in the middle -- for all of us. Why do I like chocolate ice cream? Did I independently decide to? Here is an interesting fact. When I was a kid, I liked pineapple on my chocolate ice cream. My mother told me that that was a favorite of hers when she was a kid. Are genetics at work here. Anyway, you did bring up a very interesting point. You did it in a negative way, but what the heck. That makes your non-negative messages seem all the nicer. See, everything has to be taken in context. I am working on a theory of woodworking, in which woodworkers can fall into four heirarchical groups. You should ignore it when it comes out. I believe your reaction will be something like: Who the hell does Mel think he is, coming up with a set of four groups of increasingly sophisticated skill sets, and saying who goes in what set. Actually, I don't have to say. Once you see the sets, you'll know in which set each person belongs. I wonder if I came up with this theory INDEPENDENTLY, or whether it comes from some psychological theory which I read about in the 60s and has been relegated to my subconscious. Gotta go. Gotta work on my theory.
Have fun.
Mel, your semi independent friend. Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I am working on a theory of woodworking, in which woodworkers can fall into four hierarchical groups."
You may be treading a path toward a theoretical construct similar to one that a painter friend of mine (canvas and oils, not barns and whitewash) explained to me once. Has to do with the acquiring of skills as one passes through four distinct phases:
1) Unconscious Incompetence - you don't know what you don't know and everything you do is a mess.
2) Conscious Incompetence - you know how things are supposed to work, but you haven't developed the skill to get there.
3) Conscious Competence - now you know how to make things work the way they should, but you have to really think about what you're doing
4) Unconscious Competence - finally, you can do the thing without thinking too hard, or at all.
I can best relate to this process with my flyfishing. Plenty of challenges over the years, but then one day you realize that you picked up 40' of line, dried a #20 with a false cast, and then let it sort of fluter down just like the real thing a few feet above a rising trout, but all you were thinking about was whether it's time for the cold beer in your back vest pocket. That's when the fun really begins. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
thor,
you've described conditions excellently. this is an on-going process with me. one can be conscious of this learning, as it occurs, even as one is unconscious. the human psyche is wonderful. thanks for your insight.
eef
Verne,
You are a genius.
Your theory is much better than mine.
I'll stick with yours. Unconscious incompetence - Were you referring to the outgoing President of the US?Actualy U.I. sounds blissful. The outgoing president seemed blissful in his outgoing interview.Ah, so much for politics. Your theory works for woodworking and fly fishing and for everything else I can think of. All theories have offshoots. Here is a thought. As you get better at a task, you can do it with less conscious effort. For example, doing the foxtrot, or honing a plane iron. When first learning, you are consciously incompetent. After you can do it while thinking about the project you are working on, and not giving too much thought to sharpening, you have reached the level of unconcious competence. Psychologists call this "chunking". After a while, you can make bigger bigger chunks. AHA, I think I'll make a Chippendale highboy. And all the while you are thinking about the cold beer that is waiting for you.It is truly good to make your acquaintance, Verne.
Stay warm (and out of the slush),
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Not my theory, just my application. But thanks for the kind words. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Must be why I am hung up on power tools - (though I am trying to learn) So I guess my learning went this way -- I am double Hauling my 11Wt in a 20kt wind to a daisy chain of tarpon. My 90' cast dropping a #4-O Black Death in hopes it sinks into the zone when the fish I am after turns into it. It looks to be over 6' and I am trying to not pee my shorts. I feel that way when I got a box sized and taking my DT saw in hand hoping not to ruin it.
Capt. Rich Clark
--DUCT Tape is the "force"... It has a Light side and a Dark side and it binds the universe together
Aye, Capt. I might have confused things by mixing too many pastimes in one post, but I believe I see your difficulty. You're probably a tad under-gunned with the 11wt -- leading to the bladder control anxiety, of course -- and then to make things worse, you were using a DT when you should have had a WF or a heavy shooting head on a running line. I hope this helps.
BTW, would you recommend a block plane or a sharp chisel for trimming spun deer hair bodies to shape? Always a conundrum for me. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I'd use a BU LA Block plane after wetting the fly with DNA I suppose, I never tried that, I imagine a scary sharp plane blade would work. Its been years since Ive played with Spun Fur, not a big call for that down here. It's big hackles, bits of flashabou and like. I do have a pile of Polar Bear that I like to makes feelers and legs for shrimp with, but I don't spin that, only a tiny amount for movement. I must have 500-1000 them small #24-10 or so hooks that I keep in case I get transferred to trout country once again. Oh! and the little 4-6wt rods and reels that go with them maybe Ill "ebays" them and get me some galoot tools or them pretty LN or Veritas ones... an Idea perhaps.RichCapt. Rich Clark
--DUCT Tape is the "force"... It has a Light side and a Dark side and it binds the universe together
Master Lataxe,
If memory serves me, the drawer slips in a proper English pattern drawer box serve the same function as the NK construction thus allowing for your 8mm QSO sides without undo wear.
Dick
R,
Well, one could install drawerslips that go down to the carcass, as you suggest; but virtually every illustration of them in the how-to books I have show them as tidgy wee strips not reaching the same depth as the drawersides.
But they could and, as you surmise, this would increase the sliding area and decrease the pressure of drawer side on carcass, as would Ray's glue blocks (which I haven't seen in them how-to books either - the tekneek probably died out in 1578).
But NKs are, in my 'umble hopinion yer 'onour, the doggy's bollox.
Lataxe, lover of fat-bottomed drawers.
David,
I read your response to Mr. Dare in which you mentioned the "how to" literature a few times. I say this will all respect. I think you should be writing "how to" books, not reading them.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I yam too lazy to write a book. Also, no one would read it as it would be Very Boring Indeed and only consist of Things Everyone Already Knew + Stuff That Is Wrong. And anyway, all my keyboard effort (such as it be) is devoted to either drivelling in Knots or flying Photoshop.
Lataxe, who never works; he only plays.
David,
"Lataxe, who never works; he only plays."You have reached Nirvana.
You understand the true meaning of woodworking and life.
Others need to heed that short phrase in your message.Mel, who has long believed that your output should be measured in smiles per board foot, and who is still smiling.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have a ca 1880 British sideboard that has the traditional slips and they do provide a wider bearing surface. However one of the wonderfully thin drawer sides has a slight warp that makes the drawer more difficult to operate than it should be. The thin portion of the NK drawer side is recessed on the outside about 1/8" and I think this makes them significantly better than the slipped design.Here's the silver wear drawer I did for our kitchen 27 years ago. The cabinets have taken a bit of a beating over the years as you can see but the drawer still operates like the day I first fit and waxed it. The drawer has carried an unusually heavy load every time it's been opened. Conservatively, I would guess that drawer has been opened and closed about 125,000 times.Sorry about the knot in the maple. I was on a tight budget and, because it didn't show, I used that piece.
Nothing wrong with a good tight knot in a 'stick' I'd say...
Capt. Rich, I'm afraid I have to maintain the whole gamut. Some days I spend the A.M. float tubing for Cutthroat with a 4wt and #24s on my "private" pond, then hit the estuary with a 10wt chucking 2/0 bricks for kings in the P.M. The switch up is a real killer. Life is hard!
(BTW, fly rods are handtools too ;)Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I wonder what independence really means.
I would say when you ask you wife something and she replies.. Do whatever you want... I told you not to... And she still loves ya!
In his book, "the Complete Dovetail" Ian Kirby recommends cutting the front and back of drawers to exact length and holding the pins shallow of the drawer sides. That way you can plane the sides down to clean them up, fit the drawer, and flush up the pins all in one operation.
The point of wetting the pins before planing them down is the same reason hair stylists wet your hair before cutting it. The wetting agent helps reinforce the endgrain fibers so they cut cleaner, without "split-ends". I was taught this by my high school shop teacher 40 years ago. The guy was tough to please, but he knew how to help boys master hand tools. He drilled the fundamentals into us and didn't put up with any excuses.
Ah, NK drawers. Have done quite a few, including on Shakerish work. A much underutilized drawer style. Saw them first on original early 1900s Scandinavian stuff that I was copying and then saw an article in FWW several years ago and decided to use them.
Of course, that's when I actually made stuff...
Take care, Mike
Mike,
I first aspied them NKs in the FWW article you mention. Until then I'd made the standad English piston-fitters (which sometimes would have burnt oil if they was in a motorbike).
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2730
The NKs give that purfek non-stick and non-wobble fit but never bind. Also, I like the broad bottom runners that don't wear a goove in the carcass like an 8mm thick quarter-sawn oak drawerside does in no time at all, as I am finding out.
Lataxe
David,
" Also, I like the broad bottom runners that don't wear a goove in the carcass like an 8mm thick quarter-sawn oak drawerside does in no time at all, as I am finding out."What do you make your carcases out of?
Why not use hard maple? I don't believe in the use of cheaper secondary woods. If you put a lot of time and effort in a piece, the inside is as important as the outside. Why not use good hard wood?
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
The carcases are usually made of one of three materials: solid wood the same as that of the drawer-sides; blockboard with a veneer to match the lipping or other parts made of solid wood; plywood in a similar vein.
Now, the blockboard and plywood wear worse, as you'd expect. A narrow drawer runner on a full/heavy drawer will apply enough pressure and friction, as it goes in and oot, to wear veneer quickly. It wears the softwoods typical of blockboards even faster, once it goes through the veneer (which is typically a mere 0.6mm thick - maybe a tidge less if it's been sanded).
Should I give up block and ply woods with their stabiity and often gorgeous veneers? Why-no man! Ah'd be a dafty to do that.
But even solid wood wears under the pressure and friction from a narrow drawer side made of hardwood. Hardwoods just take a bit longer. It often wears most where it shows most - at the front edge of the carcass where the drawer enters it.
Some traditions use softer secondary woods for drawer sides so this wears rather than the carcass. This might look a little less ugly as the wear progresses but the drawer does eventually show a growing gap at the top as it loses height. I've seen many an olden item with flush drawer fronts where the growing top gap is begining to draw the eye.
Also, I like the look of the English tradition of narrow, quarter-sawn drawer sides made of strong hardwood. The thicker-sided softwood tradition is not for me, in most (not all) cases.
****
Of course, for the ultimate no-wear drawers one may use plywood joined seamlessly into a 5-sided box using a lock-mitre cutter. I've made many a drawer like this. If the top edge of the plywood, where it shows, is lipped with matching solid wood, these drawers look very elegant, especially if one takes the trouble to continue the grain of the plywood's veneer around the corners.
As such drawers have entirely flat bums, the pressure they exert on the carcass is very low per square inch, no matter if the drawer is stuffed with lead weights, compared to the pressure from narrow drawer sides. Moreover, the lock-mitred carcass is an exteremely stable, strong and rigid affair. Try breaking one.
Lataxe
David,
This is not a joke. I suggest that you contact the editors of FWW and suggest that them might be interested in having you write an article on drawer making. You go a bit farther than the past articles, and it would be fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe,
Of course the traditional solution to your thin side/increased wear problem was to add a string of glueblocks to the underside of the drawer bottom-drawer side interface, increasing the area of the bearing surface and by the bye stabilising the drawer as well. But, what did those old fogeys know about building furniture anyways? Cuh!
Ray
Ray
TwoRay,
Them ole foggy-heads didn't have the NK drawer design otherwise all that glue blocking under the drawer-bum would have gone orf with the dodo. I am just glad we dinnae have to wear periwigs now, as you know.
Perhaps the NK was invented when some bright lad realised that joining up them glue blocks (i.e. installing two strips) was a tad easier. Also, no more need for them wispy drawer slips that often got stuck to the drawer-bottom instead of just the drawer-sides and maybe caused a crack. A design paroxym and the NK was borned!
Plywood drawer-bums forever! (Well, until the next evolutionary cycle).
Lataxe
Hi Mr. L,
I had seen them on older Scan furniture--but thought they were "cheater" drawers.
But yep, it was Mark's article I had read. Thanks for pointing to it!
Take care, Mike
Left to right, or right to left? It's just this sort of thing that makes it impossible to get anything done in a shop on the equator. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne,
"Left to right, or right to left? It's just this sort of thing that makes it impossible to get anything done in a shop on the equator. "That is really funny. Thanks for posting it. My joke was old and stale. Your response is hilarious. It is this kind of give and take on Knots that I really enjoy. I see you are from Alaska. What's the temperature up there? Here in Virginia, it has been close to zero F. That may not be cold for you, but for us, it is bone chilling. It was those darned Canadians who sent the cold weather down here. They have gotten pretty uppity since the exchange rate went in their favor. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Sorry you're suffering with cold in Virginia. I did a tour at Coast Guard Hqtrs in DC, so I know how miserable it is around there when it gets chilly -- just the reverse of the summer misery when the humidity exceeds the temp. I don't miss it.
We're in Juneau, so we don't have the 50 and 60 below that some of my friends deal with up in the interior. Our plight is the ghastly back and forth. About a week ago it was -15, then a big dump of snow (about 4' piled up altogether) followed by warming into the 40s. End result, a foot of slush on top of ice and nowhere for the overflow to go; ice-dams on the eves and water in the walls. Very pleasant all around. But enough complaining -- it's a great place to live most of the time. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne.
I agree. Whining and complaining dont do any good so why bother.
I hope to get to Alaska someday. Let me know if you are ever going to get close to DC. Stop on over for dinner. I don't need much notice.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Take off most of the proud ends with a chisel. Let the chisel back register on the face you taking the proud end grain down to. The swivel the chisel through an arc in that plane so that it slices an manageable portion of the proud area. Very the direction of attack as needed at the edges to prevent any break out and make for a neat job. After that, any plane will do to make things "perfect."
thank you. i am a long way from understanding the names of and the numbers attached to the myriad of hand planes available now days. many of the tips and suggestions that i receive here are already felt as somewhat intuitive. it's the technical info that daunts me most. but then honest and interested study is always productive and useful.
besides cutting endgrain pins and tails, i'm also looking to surface and thickness my rough lumber. i've made a beginning and appreciate everyone's help and input.
eef
>thickness my rough lumberWhat I find may help here assuming you mean by hand:a gaggle of indentured apprentices. I just spent the last year thicknessing ( and building ) work bench and dining table. Who needs an aerobics class ! ! ! : )>thank you.<You are a rare person and a gentleman sir. There are many who tune in here, take the info, and run, as it were, with out another word.
It takes some time to answer questions and the great pool of know how and experience here deserves a tip'O the hat.
Believe me I learned most of what little I know before this resource was available. Very frustrating and time consuming endeavor I must say. Glad I had the magazines or I would have never gotten much done with hand tools !If you can keep us abreast of how your work is going I, for one, would enjoy hearing. As Philip says 'with lots of photos'.
roc
Edited 1/15/2009 2:03 pm by roc
hey roc,
thanks for the kind words. last night i doused my end grain with mineral spirits, gripped my heftiest plane, skewed my attack from mid-air and for the first time ever was able to cut end grain, by hand, and not feel as though i were committing the beginings of a sin. that usual sinking feeling that i must be doing something wrong was deeply mitigated and i am grateful.
handwork is such good therapy.
eef
sam,
i and my chisel skills go way back. i cut all of my hinge gains with mallet and chisel. these days i MUST learn hand plane use.
eef
Edited 1/15/2009 5:24 pm ET by Eef
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