Replies

1. 
   GRW | Dec 16, 2004 06:05pm | #1

   I feel I'm a pretty serious woodworker, and I feel you get what you pay for in most cases. I try to buy the best I can afford. The LN line of tools is just too expensive for me. It is my understanding that LN tools are great and are worth the money. I don't question that.

   On my budget I bought a "W.Tyzack,Sons & Turner LTD" No 120 dovetail saw. I think It cost me about $50 six years ago. I've had good luck with it so far.  It feels good in my hand, and has stayed sharp.(though I don't cut dovetails 40 hrs a week)  In short, I guess I've been happy with the mid priced dovetail saw I bought.

   Stuart

1. 
   GHR | Dec 16, 2004 09:04pm | #8

   The LN tools are overpriced. I don't own any of them and no apprentice of mine will own any.Like others have mentioned the new pull saws cost $20 and do a very good job.One meaning of "BEST" is based on economics. You try to minimize the cost of your labor and your tools on a job. You should note a cheap tool is often best by that definition.

2. 
   PlaneWood | Dec 16, 2004 06:09pm | #2

   I have made a lot of my hand tools.   If nothing else, it helps me appreciate good ones when I see them.   I have made most of my chisels and lathe chisels.  Saves a little money but certainly not time!  Of course, with me, time is cheap (retired).  There is the 'Zen'  of the thing too.  It makes me feel good (ego gratification).

   But when using a tool you've made yourself, you focus in on all it's nuances pretty quick.

   I have a retired cousin that once told me that his time was no longer cheap.  "I ain't got that much left!"  He's a lot like me - to cheap to go buy something when it can be made.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood

3. 
   BG | Dec 16, 2004 07:00pm | #3

   Edevo,

   I don't think your being seduced at all. Like me, your a relative newcomer and some of the statements can be quite confusing.  Take Planewood for instance, great suggestion "make your own"...but just the other day he shared the fact that he has produced a son with sawdust in his bloodstream..gees, I'm just shooting for some decent dovetails...he's way beyond me...lol.

   Seriously though, cutting a dovetail is all about process and technique. The technique part is tricky because usually until you get to the finished product it's hard to evaluate the deficiencies of your technique. The LN gives you good feedback during the application of the technique....gotta hold it correctly to cut..twisting the blade and you'll feel it, etc.  LN is not the only dovetail saw that will do this but most of the others are of similar cost new...and well worth it.   Once you have the technique down the quality of the saw is of less signifiance.  An alternative to a new saw might be a used Disston..I see many coming out of Maine used for about $25-$40.

   From a newbie standpoint, I want to learn the technique as quickly as I can and develop repeatability.  Each time I need to rip, I can grab the same tools make a couple of practice cuts...activate the muscle memory..and proceed with the task.  What ever you buy...new or used...go for tools with a quality rep now or in the past.  

      

    

1. 
   edevo | Dec 16, 2004 07:27pm | #4

   Thanks for shedding some light on this..It makes sense that Peter Korn could probaly cut dove tails well with any saw...It just confused me some to think that he would be using a cheap saw...thanks again

1. 
   Patto | Dec 17, 2004 12:55am | #10

   I learnt with a $12 (actually $8 AUS) german gents saw with a slightly dog-chewed handle. My paring skills are better as a result (see later msg). I have since bought a pax saw and like it, but will probably go for their gents saw as soon as the new shop is organised and I can hide it on a shelf somewhere because i like the light weigth of the gents style (personal pref).

   The only problems with the cheap saw were that the teeth are stamped rather than cut  and that they dont stay sharp. I think that there was a bit of discussion on this a few months ago. They were big enough that it was a pretty trivial exercise to touch them up regularly and I was cutting Mountain Ash (eycalypt and pretty hard). The stamping seems to stress the steel so that the saw is not completely flat. This is not too much of a problem in thin stock, then the tooth count kicks in, but in thicker stock there are a few tracking problems.

4. 
   CharlieD | Dec 16, 2004 07:50pm | #5

   Consider experimenting with japanese-style saws that cut on the pull stroke rather than the push. I find them easier to cut accurately with. Some others do not; it's a matter of personal preference. Once you get your technique down, though, it will be difficult to switch. You may have an initial tendency to be better at one way than the other, and I would suggest that you find out before getting too far into this.

   They are not necessarily less expensive; quality always costs. Some of these saws cost over $200. But you can get a saw that will show you what you need to know to decide for $20 at Home Depot or Lowe's.

   Charlie

   I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
5. 
   robert1 | Dec 16, 2004 08:08pm | #6

   What Mr. Korn is alluding to is that the most important tool is yourself. Expensive high quality tools are not a replacement for skill. LN tools are beautiful and expensive, but high quality work occurred before they existed. Practice using the inexpensive dovetail saw. Learn how to sharpen it skillfully. Later on when you purchase the LN dovetail saw, you will greatly appreciate its capability. Good luck.

6. 
   CajunDan | Dec 16, 2004 08:47pm | #7

   EDEVO,

   When you get down to it, a saw is a low tech tool. It is just a thin piece of metal with a handle.

   Any properly sharpened saw will track well. It is just that $12 saws do usually not come from the factory properly sharpened. Its just not cost effective for them.

   Thin kerf saws, such as L/N, Aria, and Japanese also tend to have little set. That makes it track straight, but does not allow you to correct a crooked line. Thus, you learn early on good (not necessarily easy) technique.

   The third component is the handle. Beauty and balance is important to some. Some are turned off by a rattan handle. IMHO, a western type handle is easier to align with your wrist.

   In summary, if you are willing to re-sharpen a new saw, practice, and have no preferences about the handle; you do great things with very cheap saw.

   Good luck,

   Dan

7. 
   Peter36 | Dec 16, 2004 10:16pm | #9

   I attended a dovetailing class 3 years ago and brought along my 20 something dollar Lee Valley dozuki. I loved that saw until I used someones Lie Nielsen saw. My dozuki cut a extremely thin kerf, which for dovetailing does not matter, but it is difficult to aim. Any tubular grip saw is much harder to align vertically or on an angle, than a western grip. Secondly most but not all Japanese saws are designed for softwood, and definatley not things like maple. Anyone can get good results with any saw no matter how dull it is or how cheap it is etc. because you take this into account when you are cutting by leaving enough to be pared away. For this reason you could use a chainsaw if you wanted too. A top quality saw will enable you to cut to a line and have no need to pare to it at all. So the choice is yours, cut to a line and thats it, or cut away from a line and pare to it.

8. 
   closeenuf | Dec 17, 2004 05:46am | #11

   Edevo,

   Welcome fellow Mainer!!  Those Lie Nielsons are beautiful!  Out of my price range though.  I've had great luck with the antique tools I find a Liberty Tool (in "downtown" Liberty or Hulls Cove tool barn.  Both places will have a mind boggling selection of dovetail and back saws.  Clean them up and drop them off at a local sharpening service and you are set to go.  A good saw sharpener will even be able to adjust the tpi of the saw if you wish.  I don't think I could physically carry $130 worth of tools from either place!

   Something about having the initials of some unknown craftsman carved in the handle inspires me to improve my own work.  Good luck!

   Rob

    

    

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/16/2004 9:48 pm ET by Rob

1. 
   edevo | Dec 17, 2004 04:37pm | #12

   Thanks to all who replied!...You guys really provided some great advice and helped me understand the concepts much more clearly. I will try an inexpensive Dosuzi. See if I can find a used western style and once I'm able to get decent results decide where to go from there. My feelings based on the discussions is that I think I'm going to save a bunch of money that I can spend on other tools...thanks

1. 
   CharlieD | Dec 17, 2004 09:18pm | #13

   When you use the japanese-style saw, try the rip side. Dovetailing is essentially a ripping operation after all. Apply virtually NO downward pressure as you start the cut (true with any type of saw, assuming that it's sharp.) I make a line with a marking knife, deepen it with a chisel (careful not to split off wood near the edges) and thereby have a nice track for starting my saw cut. Good luck. By the way, others here at Knots have sworn by the Zona dovetail saw for about $8.50. Has a reversible blade so it can cut either way. Never tried it, always meant to. And also by the way, the japanese saw you're considering is a ryoba-type; dozukis have a back on them like a Western saw to stiffen the blade. You can check stuff like this out at http://www.japanwoodworker.com. Some stuff is pricey, but it's fun to read up on.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

2. 
   cft353 | Dec 18, 2004 05:13am | #14

   EDEVO,

   I second the German gent's saw suggestion. I have one, paid 12.95 for it, have never needed to sharpen it in about 3 years. As others have said, I don't believe it's necessary to spend $130 on a dovetail saw, good results can be had for less money.

   BTW, where in Maine are you? I'm in Pittston, near Gardiner. And Rob, how about you? You must be close if you're shopping in Liberty...

1. 
   edevo | Dec 20, 2004 05:15pm | #15

   Hi Chad

   Thanks for the repsonse. I live in Freeport and work in Portland

1. 
   cft353 | Dec 21, 2004 12:39am | #16

   "I live in Freeport and work in Portland."

   Ah, the "other" Maine...lol

9. 
   RMillard | Dec 21, 2004 06:02am | #17

   I have the LN dovetail saw. I like it very much, but it may be over priced ( the same can't be said for their planes, which are worth every penny). My favorite thing about it is that the blade sides are highly polished and this allows me to use the reflection to judge square.
   I have and still use the Stanley dovetail saw I purchased in 1996 when I first decided I wanted to make furniture. I pounded all of the set out of the blade, filed it for a rip. This made it cut fast and track accurately. This saw has cut hundreds of dovetails. The only reason I bought the LN is because I like the handle configuration.

   Rob Millard