Replies

1. 
   workinhard | Mar 09, 2005 05:00pm | #1

   It used to be in the days of hand tools only, that an apprentice would work with a master.  He would learn the skills and tricks from a pro and in turn would be saved most of the bumbling around that takes place when we teach ourselves.

   In this day and age, pictures, books, seminars, schools and videotapes take the place of that master in most cases.  Give yourself a break if you don't get it the first time.  No one does.  What joy would there be if you did it perfectly the first time?  That's why a master is a master.

   Now, on the constructive side, for me, videotapes, like the Frank Klaus one, work.  They provide that one on one instruction from a pro to a student.  There is no interpretting that goes on as when you're looking at a book.  I encourage you to try it. 

   Either way, though, we've all produced some clunkers and projects that we wouldn't want to post at the Gallery.  Just keep at it.

2. 
   CharlieD | Mar 09, 2005 05:19pm | #2

   My first dovetails were GRUESOME. Rob Millard has suggested, about other difficult operations that one should consider one's technique when encountering a problem such as this. Here are some suggestions.

   Don't over-grip the saw. A light grip helps avoid that wobble in the saw path that leads to sloppy-looking joints. Make the saw a part of your forearm; gentle grip, but rigid wrist. Make your layouts carefully; use a knife, not a pencil. Do not split the layout line, your tails (or pins if you cut tails first like me) will come out too small. Rather, cut just outsiide the line.

   Check for simple things that you may not have considered; i.e., is the stock dead flat and true, and are the end cuts square? Be very careful with your first chisel cut, lest you bugger the baseline, making it impossible for the joint to close neatly. Undercut the removed stock so the joint can close up tight. Expect to have to clean up with a chisel at this point; I still do. rub a pencil lead inside the tails and look to see where it rubs off on the pions; then you know where to pare.

   Consider your tools. Things got a lot easier for me once my chisels were truly sharp and I was using an Odate dovetail saw (I find a pullstroke easier than push, and that saw has rip teeth, which helps even more.)

   Most of all, think in terms of aquiring skill, rather than cutting dovetails just now; if you make a nice, straight saw cut perfectly to the baseline, that's success. It does take a while, but the aquisition of this skill will expand into other areas. I truly believe that it's well worth any frustration. Really, my first one's just sucked. In fact, I'd hold them up to just about anybody's as the worst dovetails ever made.

   But, here's a picture of what I can do now. These dovetails were made from a 2x4 that I ripped with a ryoba hand saw, hand planed flat and to dimension, hand cut to length and made a box for my new L-N #62 low-angle jack plane.

   You'll get it. I'm no expert, but I can pretty much do it at this point.

   Charlie

   I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

   
1. 
   MikeMD | Mar 09, 2005 06:02pm | #4

   I agree, time should help.  I appreciate everyones encouragement, right now that is likely my greatest asset in getting better... that and about 500 practice cuts.

2. 
   wgsdvm | Mar 09, 2005 11:35pm | #7

   Wow those sure are beautiful dovetails!  I am not there yet BUT the reaopsn why I am a hobbysit woodworker is just to keep on learning and improving my skills.  My first dovetails were horrible, th nexty better, amnd then the next better.

   I do get satisfaction in that everytime I make a new drawer or piece with them, they always look a little better.  I like my dovetails now because I know I did them myself !   They are structurally sound, still pleasing to the eye and give me a sense of accomplishment.  Isn't this why we do this???

   Bill

    

3. 
   Patto | Mar 10, 2005 05:25am | #11

   Charlie,

   I like the tasteful touch of a shaving and the chisel (by the way, what is ithe chisel?)

   I keep thinking about this, and would like to put in 2c worth. EVERY cut you make affects your skill. I didnt start to improve until I started to exercise the same discipline over 'rough' or prep cuts as i tried to achieve on joints. Secondly, before I mark out, I put the ends of both boards through a shuting board to make them square and straight. This might be overkill for an expert, but it sure helped me get layout sorted.

   David

1. 
   CharlieD | Mar 10, 2005 05:36am | #13

   Thanks! I think the photo is half of the appeal of those particular dovetails. Four different shades/colors, between the end grain, the corner and the light source. Re: the chisel, notice that I hid the handle...(it's blue, and plastic, still the weak point in my hand tools. I'm saving for a set of Pfeils. Let me offer this disclaimer, though--it may be the Ford Taurus of chisels, but it's SHARP...)CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

3. 
   sailalex | Mar 09, 2005 06:00pm | #3

   Mike, I would encourage you not to give up. I started trying to learn to handcut them but got diverted to some other projects but expect to get back to it. I did find that after screwing up, if I sat and analyzed what went wrong and modified my technique, I got improvement. Not like CharlieD's but improvement that made me think I could do it if I put my mind to it. I intend to go back and do it again. Keep at it until it's right and suggestions like Charlie's should provide a good guide.

4. 
   MarkRoderick | Mar 09, 2005 06:05pm | #5

   Different people learn in different ways. The key for me is to take one step at a time. If you learn that way, watching something like the Franz Klausz video is worthless. Instead, I learned by breaking down the process into a series of steps. For one thing, you have to be able to cut to a line perpendicular to the end of the board. To master that step I took my little machinist square and drew perpendicular line after perpendicular line and cut one after another. You also have to be able to cut to a line drawn across the end of the board (on the end grain). So I drew and cut to dozens or hundreds of such lines. The same for every other step. This process takes a while but avoids the frustration that can cause you to just give up.

1. 
   MarkRD | Mar 09, 2005 09:12pm | #6

   Not knowing any better, I tried to do my first set of hand cut dovetails in plywood. The drawer came out fine for a first time but oh my poor chisels. Subsequent attempts have gone much better :-)Live and learn.Mark

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

5. 
   lwj2 | Mar 10, 2005 02:47am | #8

   Mike, for dovetail practice and practical use, try making bookends.

   A couple of pieces of scrap whatever, dovetail to 90°. You can then finish them, hand them out to friends, relatives or use them for fuel if you don't like them. If you or a friend do the craft circuit stuff, you can sell them to strangers.

   I used up a bunch of scrap pine making them, learned a good deal about technique and control.

   I found it worked well enough for me that when No. 1 son wanted to learn how to do it, I handed him four pieces of pine scrap 1x4, my dovetail saw and a coping saw and told him to have at it.

   Managed to keep an overactive ten year old occupied in the shop for most of the day.

   OK, you guys can laugh now.

   Leon Jester
1. 
   DarrylM | Mar 10, 2005 03:55am | #9

   Mike,

   I'm right there with you. I want to learn to hand cut my dovetails and mortise and tenon joints, but my first try at both looked like some animal had been chewing on the wood... discouraging to say the least.

   I've made a few pieces of furniture that I'm happy with using dado's, butt joints and ton of screws. I want to make sure I continually challenge myself with each project, but wonder if I've simply bitten off more than I can chew with the dovetails. 

   I like the idea of getting the Leigh dovetail jig, because I like the idea of being able to make my next project incorporating these types of joints (without taking 3 years to complete) but this causes me to wonder if I'm simply cheating myself.

   I guess this is the perfect example of how practice make perfect (or at least better)! Good luck.

   Darryl

2. 
   Patto | Mar 10, 2005 05:28am | #12

   with 8yr-olds Timber, a Strop, and the carving gouges. I have more half made chess pieces than I know what to do with - they are starting to look like Knights though.

6. 
   BG | Mar 10, 2005 04:00am | #10

   Mikemd,

   You get a lot more from learning to cut dovetails than just nice looking dovetails. In my opinion, they require good form, good process layout, an integrated solution.  In other words they are a foundation for all the other aspects of building nice furniture. 

   The physicial execution reminds me of shooting pool and requires the developement of muscle memory. Ian Kirby recommends you get two 18"x6"x3/4" pieces of mahogany and a piece of scrap.  Each morning make ten practice cuts in the scrap, five angled each way. Then mark your face boards, layout the dovetails and cut a set joining the two pieces of mahogany..  The next morning review your work, cut off the joints and begin again.  By the time you get to the end of those boards you'll be pretty good at it

    

7. 
   highfigh | Mar 10, 2005 06:59am | #14

   I suspect that the saw cuts were the most disappointing, right? Saw control comes with practice. When you have some spare time and a few pieces of scrap wood, draw some lines at various angles away from the end grain so you can cut along the lines. Use a saw with very little set. That way, the saw can't wobble very much. A 12-14 point per inch ripping saw will work fine for dovetails. If you're using a saw without a spine and a stiff blade (Gent's saw, back saw, dovetail saw), you will want to get one. Start cutting the end with the blade level on the push stroke, using moderate, even pressure. You don't need to strangle the handle or go very fast. Practice cutting to the line. At the bottom of the cut, you can clear out most of the stock with a fret saw(0 size, round blade). This way, your fret saw cuts the same width or smaller than the straight cuts and you don't need to change direction with the fretsaw handle. Just remember to leave a little material when you cut the bottoms. Then, you can chisel the rest of the material away.

   This is obviously not the only way to cut dovetails, but it works well.

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
8. 
   EdHarrow | Mar 10, 2005 07:26am | #15

   Oh can I relate ;-)  They do burn OK tho.  Leave em a wee bit long and whack the ends with a knockometer to help fill the gaps, then clean up the evidence so you won't be accused of abuse.