Tuning a new set of chisels ….
OK, questions RE: getting a set of Marples Blue Chip bench chisels into shape –
I’m using two grits of diamond (DMT blue and red) ‘stones’ and a King #1 water stone to work backs of these guys to flat. I started out using the side of the Tormek stone (as they recommend) but found that it left too many deep scratches that were virtually impossible to remove … totally.
So –
Both the diamond stones and the water stones were given to me by friend. Neither of the DMT stones has any indication of grit size. I have to assume from the feel of the ‘bite’ that the blue one is the coarser. The red one produces a finer scratch pattern. Would like to know if I’m reading these right.
What I’m finding is if I work the back of the chisel forth and back along the length of any one of these surfaces to the point where I have a perfectly even scratch pattern, then turn to tool around and do the same on the other side, I end up seeing humps and/or valleys by way of reading the scratch pattern. Is this an indication that the diamond hones are worn … worn out? They still seem to cut pretty well. Or, on the other hand, am I being overly anal about such things?
The King stone is marvelous! There is a little block of what looks like the same material as the stone itself which I assume is used to work up the slurry for polishing. It also seems to help keep the stone flat. Is this the proper use for that item?
Included with the stuff this friend gave me is a much coarser, grey waterstone. Since I don’t speak Japanese I can’t offer any info as to type, mfr., etc. It was badly dished from lack of maintenance. Not knowing what else to use I used the blue DMT diamond hone to get it pretty flat. Is there a better way …. coarse sand paper on glass perhaps?
Lastly, not a question about sharpening or stones so much as a comment RE: customer service –
I bought these chisels from the Seattle Woodcraft store. The 3/4″ tool was missground on the back right corner …. sorely rounded over. Sent the tool back and received a replacement within three days!
But –
The customary blue plastic Marbles handle now says Irwin! Irwin bought Marples is what the store guy tells me. Blade still says “Made in Sheffield England”, though. I can attest for the hardness of the steel. Spent the last two hours polishing the back of that puppy and I’m not done yet. Very deep machine marks in this and a couple others.
Anyway … as the first set of real bench chisels I’ve ever owned, I’m working very hard to get them well tuned. It was amazing once I got the 1-1/4″ chisel polished, sharpened and honed to take a piece of ash and slice end grain so easily.
Happiness is ….. well tuned tools!
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Replies
I've never done this myself, so I have no idea what it might cost. You can take them to a machine shop and have the back ground flat on a surface grinder. You'll get them back severely flat.
Unc' -
I may have sounded like I was complaining but .... it's a zen thing with me and these tools. I use the evening sessions to 'unwind' after a day's working on the house, landscaping and whatnot.
With my brother being a machinist, if I get tired of doing this I might give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
The first thing you must do is to sort out the relative grits of your tools. Use an old plane iron or chisel and use them to sort out the stones looking at the size of the scratches. This is the essential first step.
BTW, the colors mean nothing to me other than a "green" stone, which is the coarsest.
When I flatten the back of my edge tools I push them in and out rather than slide them along the length of the stones. This is for two reasons:
1. I find that if I slide them along I can end up dishing the tools: i.e., the edges get ground away faster than the middle. Not good.
2. Only the very end of the back, only where it meets the bevel, needs to be flat and polished. Pushing them in and out the very end gets ground more than anyplace else, so the tool will be sharp without having to polish any more of the back than is necessary.
There's no point in getting an even scratch pattern on the back of your edge tools. Again, all you're shooting for is the same degree of polish that's on the bevel only where the back meets the bevel. (The actual cutting edge, after all, is where the back meets the bevel.) In practice I usually get a polish only on the last 1/2" or less of the back.
I have no diamond stones, so I haven't the foggiest what is causing your larger scratches, other than some imported grit on the surface.
The little stone you asked about is called a "nagura" stone; as you surmised, it is used for working up a slurry--but only on your finest stones. A nagura stone should not be used on anything coarser than about a 4000 grit stone.
Alan
Edited 8/10/2004 6:28 pm ET by Alan
Alan -
Thank you for the advice on how working the backs of the edge tools. Especially the suggestion to use a 'in and back' stroke rather than along the sides of the stone. I have a couple more to do so will follow that proceedure.
The really really fine waterstone is a King G-1. Doesn't feel like it's much more abrasive than a bar of soap. But tonight after spending about an hour stroking the back of the 3/4" chisel I went to the honing wheel to polish. Noticed, to my dismay that in my haste last night I left the chisel lying on a damp rag. There was a minute spot where it had started to rust (egadz! -hehe).
From the honing wheel back to the G-1 stone I realized that indeed it does have a definite grit - easily seen after a portion of the back had been polished to an almost mirror finish.
I hear what you're saying about not needing to polish any more than about a half inch from the edge .... I just thought it would be worthwhile to take about 1 1/2" of the back(s) down to a reasonably flat and polished surface so over the years I wouldn't have to address this process again.
But thanks for the words of wisdom. I realize these Marples/Irwin chisels are on the low end of the quality chisel spectrum but they're the best I've yet to own. So I treat them like my new set of octuplets (grin)...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
There's nothing wrong with the chisels you have. Many wonderful wood workers happily use blue chips. Get them and keep them truly sharp and they'll serve for as long as you live--and for as long as your grandchildren live.
About flattening and polishing the back:
When you have to re-sharpen you will have to again stone the back. The stones will create a "wire edge" on the bevel that you can feel with your fingernail on the edge of the back. You remove it by first stoning the back and then stropping.
With repeated sharpening the flat and polished area on the back will expand. You'll never again need to go through all the trouble of getting the back right.
Alan
Alan -
Thanks for the continued advice.
I'm using a Tormek grinder to sharpen these guys ... bought it to facilitate sharpening turning tools, actually but it does a good job with all the edge tools, of course.
I bring this up with respect to the 'wire edge' we get when grinding the bevel. Thus far I've been going from the Tormek wheel to the leather stropping wheel both for the bevel and to the back surface. Working both sides back and forth to remove the wire edge. Need to exerise care, of course when doing this on the back surface so's not to bevel it on round surface of the leather wheel. But with attention to detail it's working great!
One of the first uses I had for my new chisel(s) was in paring off the nubbin on the end of a piece parted off the lathe. What a joy to use a really good, sharp tool for a change.
Anyway ... the point is .... happiness is.
Would like to provoke some other people into recounting their rewarding encounters in the shop.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
>Would like to provoke some other people into recounting their rewarding encounters in the shop. <
I bought a $2 spokeshave at a flea market. Stanley No. 51 pre-WWII. Converted it from a flat face to a round face with belt sander. Polished the round face to 2000 grit. Removed jappanning from the "bed with a file and polished that to 2000 grit. Polished the blade to mirror finish and sharpened so that you can shave with it. (Which reminds me- a spokeshave blade of that size would be a good thing to take backpacking - many uses).
I needed it to remove the bandsaw marks from some curved stock. For $2 and elbow grease got a tool that I am in love with. I doubt I'll ever much need to chuck a roundover bit in the router again. Since I do woodworking for a hobby, not money, now I am looking for things to make that I can use a spokeshave on. Will probably make a couple oars for my canoe next.
Getting a tool really, really sharp will bring it to life. My hairless left forearm is dedicated to the focused pursuit of the scary sharp method.
EdThe fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. - Socrates
> ....Getting a tool really, really sharp will bring it to life.
Sometimes I have to be careful .... the process of tuning and sharpening edge tools becomes an end in itself. (grin)
I need to find some flea market/garage sale sources to hunt for such things. Anyone in the Skagit Co. area of WA state know of any?
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Ed,
"would like to provoke-----"
Got a socket chisel in a box of crap for .25 at an estate sale. It was an A. Berg. Once I got a handle made and the thing cleaned up and sharpened it became the first chisel I reach for.
I think nice tools inspire better work; it's particularly satisfying when that inspiration comes with a bargain!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Twenty-five cents! You're killin' me! One of my search strings on Ebay is "Berg." Those are nice.
I know how it is - I've been accused of being a worshipper of woodworking tools, myself. Which is why I think it's good to make something every few months whether you need to or not. That way you know you're not a c*l*e*t*r.
Ed
The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. - Socrates
Edited 8/17/2004 4:14 pm ET by Ed from Mississippi
Ed,
Did you see the set of Bergs on E-bay a while back? It was 8 or 12 pieces and very pristine, from 1/4 - 2" as I recall. I watched the price go from high to steep to ridiculous and beyond!
I have two now, both salvaged from almost junk condition. They are very sweet pieces of steel!
Good luck on your quest!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
No I missed those - just started keeping a weather eye out.
"Dear Lord: Would praying for someone to list a pristine, never used set of E. A. Bergs as "Chisel-THingy's" and list them under gardern tools with an auction ending at 3:00 in the morning be too much to ask for?"
The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. - Socrates
Ed,
I'm afraid that might be a longshot at best! LOL But good luck any way!!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
> ... in a box of crap for .25 at an estate sale.
Holy cow! What was the rest of the stuff .... bat guano!? (grin)
What a cool deal.
In another message tonight I mentioned working with my grandad's old framing chisel ... a socket tool .... I'd love to find a set of them, handles or no. I'll make the handles if need be. Don't know what the fascination is with socket handled chisels is but they're way cool!
Congrats on the find!!!
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
>> Don't know what the fascination is with socket handled chisels ...
I think you hit on one element. You can replace a missing or damaged handle with no tool but the chisel itself, if necessary. Try that with a tang handle chisel. Especially one with a plastic handle.
> ....You can replace a missing or damaged handle with no tool but the chisel itself
As I related in another topic, I used my grandad's old framing chisel today. I was gonna replace the handle with a nice turned piece of ash but as I looked at it, it looked exactly like what you describe. I can see the tool marks in it where he probably made the handle himself.
Happiness is .... "feeling" the memories ....
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
There was a 1902 Pat. Starret revolution counter but the rubber tip was long gone so pretty much worthless. The rest of the box was garbage (recycled the cardboard however) LOL
Enjoy the Skagit summer, they don't much better than this one!!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I have a red DMT stone. They say it is 600 grit. They also say it will never wear out.
Forever is a pretty long time.
As much as I hate to say it, I would recommend staying away from the Marples and Record brand names now that the factory in England is closed and has been auctioned off. I have a shop full of Record planes and love them. But they are the real deal. What is being made now under those brand names is not. 'Twas a time when a set of Marples Blue Chip chisels represented an outstanding value. I think I spent ten or fifteen minutes apiece getting mine ready for use. I still have them and treasure them.
Edited 8/17/2004 1:40 pm ET by cstanford
cstansford -
Yes, I agree with all the tool company acquistions and such that you read about these days, who's to know what's a value/quality purchase and what's not. At least I can say that the set I bought say "Marples" on the handles and are probably one of the last sets WoodCraft had in stock. However the replacement 3/4" chisel says "Irwin". The store guy said it's as good "or better" than the Marples line. If I were only savvy enought to know the difference.
As for topic adherance ....
Happiness became practiced technique cutting spalted birch tonight! Sharpened and honed the tools to an incredible edge, adjusted lighting to be able to carefully view bevel position while cutting and taking lots of very fine cuts .... managed to produce a superb finish on some otherwise rotten wood!
It's so pretty when it works!
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
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