Replies

1. 
   BigK | Mar 10, 2006 05:12pm | #1

   Tom,
   1) Their claim of 1600 CFM was more than likely based on freeflow, i.e. based on zero resistance before the 4" splitter was installed. That claim is worthless, besides the fact that it sounds impressive. While I can't do the physics justice, a fans rating needs to be based on performance under load; should read something like 800 CFM at 8" w.c.(water column, a measure of vacumn). Most of these fans are poorly designed and their performance falls off rapidly when they are under load, i.e. the real world for dust collectors. Also the bag rating of 30 microns is dangerously coarse. The result is that your lungs will be the dust collectors for the fine dust that is produced in woodworking. You run some very serious longterm health risks by relying on those bags. These risks run the gamut from allergies (wood species specific) emphysema to lung cancer. But they are your lungs to use and abuse as you see fit.
   4" PVC x 35', that adds up to a very restricted air flow. Not what you want for dust collection. There are several excellent books available on dust collection for woodworking shops. Please take the time to read one before you hook up your new collector. I would highly reccomend the one by Sandor Nagalsky, available from Taunton Press.
   IMHO, I think that you summed up that machine, and most Harbor Freight tools fairly accurately, they suck real good. HF's specialty is to provide poorly made Tiawanese tools at cheap prices.
   I understand that woodworking stuff is expensive, really I do. But your health is worth a lot more than what you saved buying that imported junk.
   Best of luck.

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 10, 2006 06:34pm | #2

   Since you probably don't have a HF collector, why not go to their store and try one. I wondered if mine was doing what the spec sheet said when I got it, so I went to WoodCraft and Rockler and got them to let me turn a comparable unit on so I could place my hand over the end of the hose (not scientific, but it did the job). You probably don't want to hear this, but it felt the same, sounded the same, looked the same (other than the color) and I now have very little cleanup to do after jointing, planing, sanding and sawing on my BS and TS. I have the same one and it works fine, including when I add the second section of hose to use my table saw, which makes it almost 25' of corrugated plastic. I know it's not the best setup but my equipment is in my garage. I have almost no dust settling on the horizontal surfaces and it gets dustier from opening and closing the door than woodworking. Also, if you re-read the original post, he said he is using different bags, not the ones that came with it. If a dust mask is used in conjunction, I doubt if there will be any damage.To be fair, most of their tools are cheap and definitely not top of the line, but they do work. Their bandsaw is a toy, as far as build quality goes. However, unless the tools and machines in question are completely made in the US, Canada or Europe, they probably came from the same foundries and factories in Taiwan. Delta, Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, General International, etc all have at least some models made there but have different finishes and some tolerances. I see quite a few complaints about all of the other brands, not just the cheapest of them.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   BigK | Mar 10, 2006 07:42pm | #3

   In the letter that I responded to, the author sited that the bags were rated for 30 microns. Read any article written on the subject by a reputable author, they all say the same thing about 30 micron rated bags and filters. They do not stop the more dangerous, finer dust. In fact, one recent article went on to say that dust collectors setup with 30 micron bags spread the finer, more dangerous dust further for our lungs to collect. Wish that I had the time to locate some of these articles so that I could cite them for you. I have seen others who have gotten sick as a result of nonexisting or poor dust collection practices. Personally know someone who developed emphysema that later progressed to lung cancer. I hope that he wins his battle, but the prognosis is not good. I have tried a few of HF's products and am generally unimpressed. Snapped a 3/4" boxwrench, wasn't hard to do. Busted a knuckle in the proccess, didn't appreciate that worth a damn. Their sandpaper isn't worth a damn, let elone what I payed for it. So go figure on my attitude about what they sell.
   Most of the tools that are sold by the big name manufacturers are made in Tiawan. The main difference in quality has to do with whether the company has a rigid quality control system in place. The Tiawanese have demonstrated the ability to produce high quality goods if they want/have to. But left to their own standards, they also have repeatedly demonstrated the desire to substitute inferior metals/workmanship/etc. I guess that it doesn't matter as long as they collect the money.
   And yes, I do have a bias towards supporting American jobs whenever possible. To many examples to support my position to list here.

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 10, 2006 07:58pm | #5

   If you're talking about the first post here, he said he has the Penn 1 micron bags. I agree that the fine dust is terrible, though. I won't argue with you on that for a second. I have seen some of the articles, too. Somewhere in these forums, there are a couple of threads about it and they list some of the info that I think you're referring to. I got burned with some off brand sandpaper once, and it won't happen again. I don't buy cheap wrenches. The cheapest I used were Craftsman (not the nice, shiney ones) and I got tired of them flaring when I needed to use the open end while I worked on cars, so I moved up to Snap On. Craftsman now has basically the same kind, but they're about the same price anyway. I have dropped my wrenches on concrete several times over the past 20 years and not one has any peeling chrome. I have never needed to replace one, either. I think we agree on everything here except that the HF collector is a piece of junk- mine does a really good job of it and since I don't take my mask off till I'm out of the area (in winter, this means leaving through the small service door) I can see how much dust remains since I always have some clean surfaces. Sorry to hear about your friend. It's never good when that kind of illness occurs.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

   Edited 3/10/2006 12:07 pm by highfigh

1. 
   BigK | Mar 12, 2006 01:18pm | #10

   I must have missed where he said about the 1 mic bags. Oops. Guess that maybe I got on my high horse a little bit; a couple of bad experiences and there you go. So now what?
   I still stand behind what I said about that I thought that 35' of 4" PVC was probably a little long; seems that the air flow on the far end would be rather reduced, but some is better than none. What about grounding? Wouldn't the static buildup be of concern with using PVC pipe? How do you get around that?
   hey, thanks. I try to remember to keep Tom in my prayers whenever I can. This kind of news always sucks.

2. 
   highfigh | Mar 12, 2006 05:31pm | #11

   The first time I set up a DC system, it was for a company I worked for and they gave me 3" PVC with a 1 1/2 HP Powermatic. Funny how the other shops in the company got 4" and theirs worked fine but mine barely worked 10' away. 35' is pushing the limit, big time. I did run a ground wire through it and never had a problem and also have a ground in mine since it's using flexible hose. I'm not planning ot be at this house long enough to run a permanent system but the first time I used it with my saw in winter, I got zapped every time I touched the saw. That was no fun at all. I drilled a litle hole, big enough for the wire in the PVC at each end and glued it (so it wouldn't move or cause any leak, no matter how small) and grounded it to the collector and saw.Yeah, I'm losing friends left and right, so do as much as you can for him.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   BigK | Mar 10, 2006 07:46pm | #4

   One other question, if I may. When it is 85 or 90 degrees in your shop, do you where your dust mask religously while you are in there? That fine dust is still floating around long after whatever wodworking process that generated it is finished.

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 10, 2006 08:07pm | #6

   If it's 85 or 90, I don't mind it. When I have to go into an attic during the middle of summer and it's 120+, it sucks but I still wear it. It's the rubber kind with two cartridges on it. Better to sweat and be able to breathe in 20-30 years. I also have good cross-ventilation, but this summer, I'm adding a vent fan (old blower from a furnace that will have a filter inline). I also vacuum my garage. Sweeping is a waste of time, as far as I'm concerned and yes, I have used sweeping compound. I don't like the oil it leaves behind.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   tom411 | Mar 11, 2006 01:32am | #8

   Thank you BigK for the input.  I had done some research prior to purchasing the HF and was wise enough to upgrade to 1 Mirc from Penn.

   Thanks again!

   Tom

2. 
   forestgirl | Mar 10, 2006 08:26pm | #7

   Tom, I'm no DC guru, but I think one piece of info that would be helpful is:  How big is the impeller?  Often, when companies upgrade a model, they site the fact that they've provided a bigger impeller, so seems like that might be an important thing to look at.

   Be sure to group the high-need machines closest to the DC.  In other words, the tool that's at the end of that 35' stretch ought to be the one that requires the least air flow in DC.  I've heard that another thing that helps is to have gentle bends when turning 90°.  One of the companies makes fittings that focus on a larger "sweep" to make those turns.

   Dust collectors may be the one gem in the HF entourage.  Quite a few people have bought them and then retrofitted with either better bags or with cartridge filters.  Hopefully, they have a long life-span.

    

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 
   

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 11, 2006 05:33am | #9

   I'll measure the impeller on mine if I get the chance tomorrow. Also, I'll see if there are any markings on the motor that are similar to any other power tools I see in the near future. I sucked up a pretty good sized bolt a couple of months ago and instead of just leaving it in there, I pulled the cover and removed it. The impeller is about the same size as the opening that it goes into, just like all of the others. It can't be much bigger, can it? I may go to Rockler tomorrow anyway, so I'll see if they'll open it up for me.To be honest, I don't think there'll be any earth shattering difference in the entry level units. They probably do that with the larger ones. Even from an inventory standpoint, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to stock 4 impellers when you're supplying DC's to 10 companies and the model is basically the same from brand to brand and the differences are mainly in the steel gauge, paint color and motor.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   Ricks503 | Mar 12, 2006 08:15pm | #12

   There have been previous discussions on the HF DC. For the price it seems they are good  - noisey, ugly, seemingly flimsy, but it also seems they empulate the energizer bunny and keep on running. I am looking at getting one and upgrading the bag, or going to a pleated filter. 

   Right now they have it on sale for $159 as I see in an ad in the latest issue of Woodworkers Journal

   I have a HF store in town, so I would not have to pay shipping on it.

   Alsthough, I just saw this

   http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dc1bxl-1m.html

   seems like it would be cheaper to buy the penn state unit instead of the HF and then adding the 1mic bag upgrade.

   1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

   Edited 3/12/2006 4:53 pm ET by Ricks503

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 13, 2006 03:43am | #13

   It's no noisier than any of the other comparable (function, not price) units. I looked at mine yesterday and the disc that covers the impeller is at least 12'' diameter, so even that isn't different from the others.How is it cheaper to buy the Penn State at $229? That's $70 more than the HF unit."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

   Edited 3/12/2006 8:49 pm by highfigh

1. 
   Ricks503 | Mar 13, 2006 03:50pm | #14

   If you then factor in the cost of replacing the 30mic bag with a 1 mic like the penn state has, they come out even +/- $5-$101 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 13, 2006 04:59pm | #15

   Sorry, when I read it, it seemed like you meant you would save money by buying the Penn State and get the 1 micron bags. Isn't the Penn State 1HP? The kind with the impeller/motor up high usually is lower powered. Personally, I think it makes sense to have the blower outlet close to the bags but that can make it top-heavy.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   Ricks503 | Mar 13, 2006 06:28pm | #16

   They did not state a HP in the ad, but did state true 850 CFM. - If correct, that is more important than HP, as you want at least 800 CFM.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

3. 
   highfigh | Mar 13, 2006 06:48pm | #17

   They showed HP in the ad when I clicked on the link. Scroll down, and it shows the features- Features include:
   - "Y" inlet for two 4" connections
   - Efficient 1 Hp motor, 110/220 VAC
   - 10" impeller now delivers 850 CFM
   - Super high filtration 1 micron "Vu-thru" filter bags and band clampsNote: Dust collectors perform best with 4" diameter duct and machine ports. Performance degrades significantly when duct or ports are less than 3" diameter.These were dragged and dropped from the ad. The last one may clear up a misconception for some, that it might seem like the air would move faster through a smaller dia pipe when it actually restricts air flow.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

3. 
   Scott1955 | Mar 13, 2006 10:48pm | #18

   Hey Tom,

   I recently purchased the same unit only without the 1 micron bags.  It wasn't an option when I went looking.  I'm and engineer and have some experience with fan spec and pump specs.  They are basically the same animal but pumping a different fluid.  I always laugh when I read some of the posts on fans because someone nearly always tries to get technical where they know not.  This thread didn't do that and there was a lot of good stuff here.  Let me add a few things. 

   I bought mine, cheap piece of junk that it is, because I have a large family and woodworking is a distinct privilege.  I don't have a lot of cash to burn on anything and so cheap was effective for the amount of time I can spend in the "man-pit".  I looked at air flows and ratings ad infinitum.  Does this one pull as much as that one and so forth.  The amount of air volume is going to be related to impeller diameter, the depth of the impeller blades and the speed the thing turns at.  All things being equal, it is cheaper to make a smaller impeller on a standard motor turning at 3550 rpm.  You could make a much larger impeller do the same capacity  and turn at a slower speed to get the same result.  Speed and impeller size also determine the amount of suction pressure or vacuum that you can achieve.  In a shop vacuum you can pull as much as 129" of water in an industrial shop vacuum.  Probably 36-40 or so in a home Shop Vac kind of application.  These spin very fast and have very high pressures but not much volume.  Typical dust collector fans are about 8-15" of vacuum.  One of the trade-offs is large passages so you can flow large chunks down through the impeller.  All of the impellers tend to radial vane with straight impellers.  Some have slight modifications such as a curve toward the out side to reduce noise.  The radial vane impeller is inherently noisy but produces great flow, great vacuum, and can be ruggedly constructed for a low price.

   Mine works fine but I have considered my use.  I have a small garage shop.  I expect to construct a header on one wall probably 6" and 15' long.  From this I'll use flex hose to get to individual machines.  I only have a need to run a single machine at a time and I hook them up manually.  I will graduate to blast gates later.   My intention is to roll the cheap blower out side the garage and around the corner.  I'll create a negative pressure in the room by drawing air outside.  I'll have a fresh supply of clean air coming in from the other side of the house.  Seems to work well. 

   A thing or two on flow.  The farther you get from your fan, the greater the air flow resistance and loss of velocity and pressure.  The longer you need to run from the source, the more horsepower you need to both push the air and create vacuum.  Going with a larger diameter line helps but after so much increase your little fan will not create enough velocity to keep the larger stuff suspended and moving along to the collector.  You can trial and error this part.  It's basically like everything else in life.  You pay for the size of the toy.  It you want to have a lot of machines hooked up and not have to play with hoses and blast gates then just get a five horsepower job and suck a lot of air.  If you're 50 and things are slowing down for you, then take your time and hook up a single machine and enjoy the experience.  I've spoken generally here but it is technically correct.

   Your wheel in the HF unit is 10" if I remember that bit of research correctly.  More diameter means greater pull and flow.  So the 11 inch or 12" advertised by some will do more work if there is great horsepower involved.  I actually was interested in building my own cyclone and fan system.  I remembered that my object was to enjoy cutting wood safely and not to bring my work home with me. 

   Hope that helps.  You probably got a lot more practical advice from the other folk but then, wood butcher actually describes my skill level the best.  Not much of a woodworker but I am a decent engineer.  Love to hear that saw run!

   All the best!

   Scott

    

    

    

    

    

1. 
   tom411 | Mar 13, 2006 11:40pm | #19

   Thanks Scott!

   I too have four kids ranging from 9-15, so my shop time is very limited but very enjoyable.

   Your insight is very appreciated.  Let me take a look at the fan blade and see if replacing is an option.

   I don't remember where I read that spraying the inside of the bags helps to increase the velocity.   Does that sound right to you (I don't remember what the spray was?).

   Thanks again,

    

   Tom

1. 
   Scott1955 | Mar 14, 2006 01:52am | #20

   I've never heard of spraying the bags with anything.  If you have 1 micron bags you are as good as it gety unless you want to go with the newer pleated filters at 1/2 micron.  One thing to note is that it takes more pressure to push through a 1 micron than it does through a 30 micron.  So the tighter you go on the discharge size means less flow on the suction side.  Kind of like putting a hair ball in your sink drain.  Same thing happens when the filter bags plug.

   In order to repalce the impeller you will likely need to replace the housing.  Even if it looks like there is room, this type of pump needs some extra room at the end of the impeller to allow occasional large chunks to pass through.  There is a cross screen on the inlet to prevent large stuff from entering.

   I would start small and work your way up to the expanded system with longer runs.  Remember that the inlet has a 5 X 4 X 4" inlet.  You can run 6" pipe ten feet down the wall and cap it or 20 feet and cap it and then add drops as you go along.

   Naturally I would put the drops in with the main run but use them or not based on the flow that you get.  Put a cap on the far end so you can look down the pipe and see if any stuff is accumulating.  Since most of this comes in 10 ft lengths, you might try 10 foot of 6" and then ten feet of 4".  Plan your drops accordinly and see what you get.  If you have enough flow and velocity in both legs.  You could insert another 6" section and push the 4" section towrd the far end.  You may get by with 20 feet of 6" and a ten foot section each of 4" and 3". I would think that you can only run three machines max and I would be bleeding some small amount of air at the far end of it to keep things sweep clean.  I've run a planer and radial arm at the same time off of my system.  If you have the machines set up optimally, you may get three to work effectively.

   Let me know if you have questions.  I'll be glad to give advice.  It's cheap (free) and only worht what you pay for it.  Kind of like those HF machines.  Just a blow hard.

   BTW, seven children (one married) plus two foster children.  I really am crazy and the wife is worse.

   All the best..

   Scott

2. 
   DonStephan | Mar 14, 2006 02:19am | #21

   Hate to be so negative, but given the impeller and hose size, not sure the DC is going to get very much of the fine dust thrown up by a table saw blade as it spins. Especially so with a 35' run - way too much drag. If that collector is the only option, move it from machine to machine as needed and keep the hose absolutely as short as possible.It's not easy reading but peruse the dust collection pages at http://www.billpentz.com. The minimum recommended air flow to capture fine dust at machines cannot be produced by a small impeller and hose.