Friends:
Some may recall that I am building a chest for my daughter using wide old growth walnut. The boards are 15 1/2 to 16 inches wide, so I couldn’t run it through my DeWalt 735 even if I wanted to. However, that isn’t a problem for most of the wood as I have properly cambered fore and jointer planes and so flatten and trim to thickness with them.
Much of the wood has beautiful clear grain and works like a dream. However, I chose a figured piece for the lid, with a couple of handsome knots and lots of swirling grain reversal. I find that two things are happening. The first is tearout, and the second is that the plane blades don’t dig in as deeply on the harder parts of the grain.
At the moment, I have rgotten out most of the chatter and tearout marks and have a board that is flat within a few thou on all directions. I did this by use of an LN scraper plane and a Stanley 80 with a Hock blade. However, I can’t get a nice even finish to the wood. the S 80 tends to skip and chatter when it hits the tricky parts, and the scraper plane takes such a thin shaving that it doesn’t reach into all places.
THis is quite frustrating. I am on the edge of just throwing up my hands and having recourse to my ROS.
I wonder, though, if I am missing something I should try first? I’d really like to learn how to do this.
Joe
Replies
hey joe,
although i may be branded as a heretic, were i in your situation, and i have been countless times, i'd employ my belt sander, say three hail marys and go on with my life,
one day soon i too will be a hand plane man of great purity, but against that hour, i shall belt sand...
eef
Planing wild grain often requires a steeper pitched plane
Joe:
You didn't say what the bed angle is on the smoothing plane your using. Typically, if you are getting tear out you need to use a steeper pitched plane, say 55 to 65 degrees on a bevel down smoother. You can achieve the same thing with a bevel up plane by honing the iron with a 45 degree secondary bevel. It is also possible to give the iron on a bevel down plane a back bevel on the face of the iron to increase the angle of attack. Obviously, you will need to keep the iron sharp and take very light cuts.
gdblake
If your hell bent on
Hand tools , I say tune up your card scraper and work the grain, Bend the card and take light passes in the difficult areas , kind of like learning to shave , take skewed passes to feel whats best .
Tom.
Plane tekneeks with knots and swirly grain
Joe,
If you want the plane to do as much of the work as possible, before reverting to scraper, sander or other tekneek, may I suggest the following procedures:
* Plane the whole surface so the knotty areas are left a little proud. This makes it much easier to work them with a plane. If they are down in even the slightest hollow, planing them becomes hard or impossible because you need to take only very thin shavings over knotty areas.
* Make the blade very sharp - as sharp as you can; rehone it often to keep it scary sharp. Saying that, I find A2 and similar hard modern steels seem to cope very well with the punishment that hard knots dish out to the edge.
* Take only very fine shavings. Knots and their surrounds get ornery if one attempts to take off too much at once. Patience is a virtue with such areas. Use also a very narrow mouth setting, with normal-angled blades at least. (steep cutting angles seem to care less about the mouth opening).
* A cambered blade also helps, as set fine it will be taking cuts only from, say, the middle third of the blade. Taking much less wood-per-swoosh seems to avoid tear out or at least reduce it to a fuzzy minimum.
* It helps if the plane sole is well-polished and slips across the surface easily. Knotty areas don't like a plane that hesitates or stutters. A bit of mineral spirit on the knot area can also help.
* A very heavy plane seems to help a lot. If the knot area is accessible to it, therefore, a jack plane might be better than a smaller smoother. I like "Battleship Marcou" myself. :-) Strangely, pressing down hard with a normal-weight plane doesn't seem to have the same effect as using a ten-ton-tessie, perhaps because a hard down-press makes it more difficult to take constant-speed swooshes....?
Any kind of blade chatter, or other propensity of the plane-parts to make tiny movements during use, will be found out by the knotty areas. A precision-engineered plane with stiff, beefy parts makes a big difference.
* Attack the knotty area from various angles and using various skewed swooshing motions. With that very sharp blade and very thin/narrow shaving, you can feel your way to the most succesful angles/skews without causing major tearout.
* In addition to the above, some types of grain-swirl and knot respond well to a very high cutting angle (up to 65 or even 70 degrees); near-scraping, in effect. This is especially useful if you need to use a small-soled plane to get into, and make cuts at all, in the knotty area.
***
In the end you may have to use those other methods. Personally I'd use scraper or a belt-sander followed by a hand-sand. An RO sander will have it's pad deformed by a knot (knots being very hard) so you end up with a smooth but slightly humped area around the knot.
You usually have to sand hard knots with a rough grade to get them to reduce at all; but that leaves more obvious scratches so you have to go a grade or two higher than you would with that timber-type to get those scratches out of the hard, shiney knot surface.
These days I avoid the belt sander and do scraper then a final hand-sand, in the rare cases where the heavy-dooty planes cannot complete the task. It takes more effort but probably less time.
It is worth perservering with these tekneeks, as ornery wood then becomes a possibility in your pieces. Not only is it rather more attractive than easy/straight grain (in the right piece) but it can often be got cheap or free, since other fellows don't care for the difficulties of dealing with it.
Lataxe
Lataxe said it all but that usually doesn't stop me
from "helping". OK here goes and I warn you early your wallet isn't going to like it. (I echo Ian Kirby's teaching here) On large surfaces I would suggest getting several blades for your finish plane and sharpen them with much attention to avoiding rounding the facets; back and bevel. Please read NO STROPPING here. Mr Kirby sported a stack of twenty blades so there was "no waiting" as it were. Just change and go. See Woodworker's Journal August 2000 p29. Skip and chatter is a sign one has waited too long to put in a fresh blade. Can get by in the initial planing with a less than sharp blade if it has lots of camber but for finish planing, less or no camber, then extra sharp doesn't last long with figured wood. Steep angle is a must as was already said.
Here is an article for you to look at technique https://www.finewoodworking.com/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=2665
PS: using an iPad the thing on Knots takes out my paragraph returns. I have no idea why it allowed me to put in the one at "Here is . . ."
Joe,
The article by Rodriguez on handling wild grain, that Roc provided, is VERY VERY good. He says something that everyone else on this thread has left out, and IMHO, is the most important variable in the planing process --- SKILL, SKILL, SKILL. He takes pains to point out that the rules of thumb that he gives are only rules of thumb, and you must practice and learn to hear the sounds of the plane and feel what the plane is doing and adjust appropriately.
In other words, you can have all of the "right" planes, and have them tuned to perfection, and be able to state all of the rules of thumb by heart,
AND STILL NOT BE ABLE TO PRODUCE GOOD RESULTS.
This has been my experience in working with hand tools. I need to try and try and try, and over a matter of months, I begin to get a feel for what I am doing.
I am struggling with a board with wild grain. I put up a thread a month or two ago, and got some interesting feedback, much of it focussing on scraper planes, and on BU smoothers. That was all very nice, but the part about "skill" was left out. I guess everybody just assumes it. I don't. I have to keep reminding myself that tools are only tools. One doesn't read a book on open heart surgery and then begin with one's wife as practice before going to Med school and getting lots of practice.
I don't take woodworking courses for lots of reasons. The biggest is that skill development doesn't happen in an hour or a day, and the classes only really get across the "rules of thumb". Then you go home and practice, practice, practice, and this is where the learning happens. However, I would love to get a week with someone like Rodirquez, after having gotten a lot of practice. I like to initial learning at home before asking an expert.
My suggestion to you on your project is to put the project aside for a month, and go out to your local fine wood store and buying a thick slice of crotch walnut, or using the craziest piece of wood you have available but are not using in your project, and practice, practice, practice what Mario R. said, until you believe you have the "feel" of what the rules of thumb really mean, and can get right results. Then go back to your project.
As I said, handling crazy grain is not something I am good at. It is something I am working hard at. As always, the information from different people is vastly different, at least on the surface. For example, Mario wants you to start with a scrub plane. Chris Schwartz says to not use the scrub. Instead, use a foreplane (#6) or a Jack (#5) with an iron with a 8" radius camber. His reasoning is that you get the agressive cutting action of a scrub but the wider and longer sole gives you a flatter board when you end that process. I like Chris' approach on that one.
Others (who will go unnamed) recommended the LV LA Jack with three different irons honed with increasing angles of attack. Others said to get a 55 deg frog for my smoother (an LN). Still others said to get the LN BIG scraper plane. Others said to use the LA Jack with a toothing blade to take off more wood quickly without tearout. WOW. One has to have a lot of planes to try out all of these approaches.
Rodriquez offers a "system" from start to finish, and offers a rationale for each type of plane, and suggestions as to how to use each plane in the sequence, and tells you to gain the skills. I LOVE A SYSTEMS APPROACH, rather than an exhortation to buy yet another plane. Chris Schwartz also uses a systems approach, which is a bit different than Mario's in the details, but the overall philosophy is the same. Chris does offer one hint -- if you run into difficult grain, then try lots of things wo see what works. I don't think Mario ruled that out.
As you can see, I am working out all of this stuff in my mind, and am a long way from the endpoint. When I started getting some nice planes, I took the advice of Rob Cosman to start with a LN 4 1/2 and a 5 1/2. He likes the BIG a;termatives. I am starting to think that the smaller brothers would have been a better choice. But then again, I remember a guy who says he did it all with a #7 and another who does almost all of it with a 5 or 5 1/2, so I will just pluck away and try to figure out what works for me.
Woodworking is not the hobby for someone who wants answers on whom everyone agrees.
Enjoy. Let us know how the project turns out, and what you learned about handling tricky grain.
Mel
Good grief Mel, I am dizzy after reading your post! So many ideas ... not many of them connected to each other (or perhaps I am not taking the same medication as you?). :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
I'd say "fizzy"
Derek,
SKill - it's a funny thang......
In order to obtain "skill" one needs to decide on a number of things - objective or outcome required; necessary tools; relevant procedures; and so forth. These fundamental requirements demand, in turn, a whole load of stuff to differentiate good information from bad concerning those objectives, tools and procedures. So, we talk in forums and elsewhere about design, tools and methods.
Without a begining in those often intellectual aspects, how does one begin to acquire the associated skills? It would be like a monkey at the typewriter.
In past times, apprentices learnt mostly by watching. Sometimes a less taciturm master might impart the associated words to explain some of the actions. In all events, it took lads ages to learn; often they knew only what they had been shown with little understanding of why the learnt skills worked; or how they could be improved, adapted, expanded etc.. I know many old fellows who have closed minds about new stuff because they think the skills they learnt long ago, parrot-fashion, will do. And they do do - but such lads never get a new adventure in their woodworking, rarely acquire a new skill, are often in a rut.
***
Some would have us believe that there is nothing new to learn - that talk of tools and methods is nothing compared to the practical skills. I disagree as in my experience skills come fastest and in a wider range when one is first informed by all the talk and writings about the things involved.
Lataxe, who enjoys understanding as well as how-to.
>One doesn't read a book on
>One doesn't read a book on open heart surgery and then begin with one's wife as practice before going to Med school and getting lots of practice.< Awe Oh. Aaaauuuuhh I wish someone would have mentioned that. So that's what the problem was. OK thanks; I'll keep that in mind NEXT time. : )
Lataxe, > And they do do < Well I suppose we all do do occasionally. I know I did do do.
Many thanks to all.
I am going to read and rearead these sugestions/
Actually, the board is already quite flat due to the ministrations of my #6 with the cambered blade, and my #7 with the ever so slughtly cambered blade and the fine shaving. However, it is out by a thou or three here and there and has the small patches of tear-out that I must smooth out. It is the tearout and the uneven look of the thing that I find unacceptable.
FWIW Mel, I have the BIG LN scraper plane, but it only takes a thou or so and does not reach into existing tearout.
Joe
Joe,
So you have the big LN Scraper plane!
I have card scrapers and a Stanley #80? From what I read in Mario's article, he only uses a scraper for the small areas that can't be handled otherwise. I fettled the Stanley up pretty well and it does a good job. But I have a question for you. What is the real usefullness of the BIG scraper, especially since you and Mario got down to only small places where you need a scraper? I sure would appreciate some wisdom based on your experience.
Thank you,
Mel
Stanley #80
Mel and Joe,
Both of you mention the #80, Joe mentions the Hock blade. I find the #80, at times, is lacking in 'staying power' as I work tough grain. Have either of you found the Hock blade improves performance?
Frosty
Stanley #80
Frosty, Do you cut extra blades for your #80 out of old handsaws? The old Disston handsaws that I pick up at my local rust emporiums for $5 or so are hardened to about RC 45-50 and easy to grind to perfect dimensions, grind the 45 degree angle for the bevel, polish the back and bevel and then turn the hook with a burnisher. I find it useful to have a couple extra blades with turned hooks ready to go. The #80 is a great tool - probably not shiny or expensive enough for much of the 'knots' crowd and kind of makes an irritating noise when you use it, but otherwise, works great for me. Good luck, EH
Frosty,
Sorry, I can't give you a good answer to your question of the thick versus thin blades on the #80. I have only used the thin blade.
I did to a Google search and read a number of writeups on that topic. I didn't have much confidence in the people who wrote them because some were "influenced" by the maker, and others fully admitted they were new at it.
Did you read the Mario Rodriguez article that Roc listed above? It is a phenomenal writeup on when and how to plane difficult wood. According to Mario, almost all is done with a small set of well tuned handplanes, and he only uses a card scraper in a very few small spots where a very small smoothing plane (actually a low angle block plane tuned as a smoother, don't do the job fully. I was impressed by the article. Well written by a guy who is a "real" woodworker, like you.
Let me know if you get a good answer to this question.
Thanks,
Mel
Mel.. HI! Glad to see ya..
I did to a Google search and read a number of writeups on that topic. I didn't have much confidence in the people who wrote them because some were "influenced" by the maker, and others fully admitted they were new at it.
I never go for perfection.. OK, so I found my wife.. She died many years ago..My one true find with perfection in life..
I admit that I am no expert on hand planes. I just plane off wood (at an angle) until I run into problems.. I then always take out my hand scrapers.. I will shapen as often as necessary. I find that a 'curl shaving' MAY not necessarly be better that some 'dust' that a dull blade gives.. Hell, I have been known to just 'spit' on the wood to raise the grain a 'bit' and scrape it off.
I admit that I never go for perfection, as in museum quality. They are filled with old dirt and whaever hand oils.. Maybe even the grain was filled with old locomotive soot!
by a guy who is a "real" woodworker, like you.
Mel,
Wow! Thanks for the (undeserved) complement. I will look up and read the Rodriguez article. We all have our moments with tough grain and any advise is worthwhile.
I'll use this post to comment on the "learning" thread that has developed here. As I've stated before, I have been blessed by the ability (time and $) to attend Marc Adam's school and take classes with some the best woodworkers in the country. This style of learning works for me.The day is broken when an instructor gives a whistle, or some other attention getter, and the class then assembles around his workbench while he demonstrates and describes a new procedure.
I take notes like crazy and file them by project when I get home. There are two video cams focused on the instructor's hands that show on wide screens what you would see if your nose was 6" away from the chisel. (Not that close for me, no matter how good the guy is!) Then it's back to your bench to work - and screw-up - and work - and screw-up - till you have achieved some semblance of mediocrity.
The real learning and practice come when I arrive home, in my own shop, and attempt to emulate the results I saw the instructor produce in class. I may even attempt a different procedure, more suitable to my method of work, now that I know what the end result should look like.
We all learn by different methods - seeing someone do the job, hearing the job described, reading about the process or just 'jump in and try to do it". I suspect that most of us combine all of the above from time to time; but I also suspect that one of those ways is the preferred method. Ain't life grand?
Frosty
Frosty,
Marc Adams spent three days with the Washington Woodworkers Guild last month. It was a lot of fun. He did a number of demonstrations. Unfortuately it was strictly a "talk and demo". There was no chance for the audience to try anything. But he gave some good demos and advice.
Marc's initial talk, on Friday night, was a sequence of slides of the Mickey Mouse themed furniture that he has made. PHENOMENAL!
BY the way, I loved your thought: "The real learning and practice come when I arrive home, in my own shop, and attempt to emulate the results I saw the instructor produce in class. I may even attempt a different procedure, more suitable to my method of work, now that I know what the end result should look like."
I believe that is the way most real learning happens in woodwork - when we actually try to do it, and check our results, and then try again. As you point out, it is great is there is someone there to show you what "good" is, and how it looks.
I think I have an idea on how to get some good info on the "Real" place for scrapers in woodwork. I am going to ask Ray Pine. He always gives good advice.
Have a Great Memorial Day weekend.
Mel
Marc Adams - Mickey Mouse
Mel,
"Mickey Mouse themed furniture that he has made. "
One night Marc showed us slides of his bedroom where every piece of furniture is Mickey Mouse themed. Someone asked, "What does Suzie (Marc's wife) think about this?"
Marc's reply, "I don't know. I never asked her."
On the classes: I forgot mention in the "work - and screw up" section, that the time comes when you holler "Michael, Phillip, Kelley, Graham - What am I doing wrong?" Then comes the 5, 10 15, or 20 minute one-on-one where the technique is straightened out. Great stuff.
Frosty - Enjoy the weekend and remember that Freedom isn't Free. Many have paid, are paying the price, for our freedom today.
AND trumps EITHER_OR
Dusty, ole skillpot,
Perhaps I have been less than articulate. I don't dismiss the notion that skill-getting requires many, many hours practice. Far from it; your guitar example is only too familiar. But that being so, one is better off acquiring good skills, directed by intelligence and understanding, rather than a whole set of randomly-acquired bad habits.
In short, I propose that academic intelligence and hours of practice are both necessary to obtain the higher skills - to avoid bad procedures and to become skilled in a reasonable timescale.
Also, as you point out, some understanding is best imparted via the language of action rather than just words or pictures. But I do find that a video of proper acions is less informative than having a live expert at beck & call. This is because the sometimes mysterious actions are generally illuminated by an added bit of question & answer.
You may watch an expert carver magically transform a piece of wood into a marvellous form but this will not necessarily allow you to copy the actions, no matter how many times they are attempted. When the carver explains the feel at the handle, her eying of the grain, the required edge-applications and other arcane matters, things become clearer. Then one may practice & practice with a better chance of improvement than if one merely makes semi-random chisel-cuts in which one attempts to "ape" a mere video. (Ask me how I know this). :-)
The guitar! I yam learning the classical tekneeks ever-so-slowly. I have practiced hundreds of hours; so I'm relieved that the practice was directed by some good books, a few demonstration videos (with detailed analysis of the actions) and a tutor. Without the intelligence they provided I would be a five-chord wonder and have acquired those bad habits (so easily adopted if one is ignorant) which would prevent progress to the harder pieces.
There is a similar tale concerning archery, to which I am also a newby. One may observe any number of archers who have shot arrers for many years yet are still hopeless at hitting the target. They never bothered to learn good techniques, grasp the arcane mechanics of the equipment or acquire the calm emotional states. With benefit of several books, videos and our excellent club coach, I am already surpassing these rut-bound folk at getting groups of sticks into the yellow bit, far away. Of course, the many, many days down on the archery field, shootin' arrers, was also a necessary part of this increase in my skill.
Stained glass knowledge is also being forced into my thick heed just now. Without the book and the tutor, how much broken glass, cut fingers and mis-shapen panels of glass would I need to make before one looked anything like it should? Astoundingly, after a mere 3 X 3-hour classes from the excellent tutor, I have made a pair of not half-bad plain glass practice pieces. What chance of making them via uninformed trial and error?
And so on.
*****
I learnt enormous amounts of useful knowledge here in Knots. The many, many folk who have described their experiences and findings have made my woodworking journey to a reasonable competance much shorter than it would have been if I had "reinvented the woodworking wheel" all by myself in the shed. So when a certain cynic comes along with the "just do it" nonsense, I feel the need to contest such useless klaptrap.
Just compare the excellent and highly informative writings of a Derek Cohen with the tedious drones of our pre-eminant "try everything, just do it" fellow. Who is of greatest use to improving one's woodworking skill?
Lataxe, not content to blunder about stupidly.
LOL.. THis is quite frustrating. I am on the edge of just throwing up my hands
I almost did that! I used some left over wood I had on hand (Not that she was NOT worth my new slabs).
Something about my daughter... She is beautiful and plays games online t(he NET) with folks all around the world.. She has a Masters in Chemestry.. She does this to relax? Not sure, myabe for some new fun.. She was my first child.. I was on top of a 20 foot ladder putting wood siding on my house.. I felt a tug on my leg,, It was my daughter pulling on my levies pants leg to let me know she wanted to help.. I almost had a heartattack! I grabbed her arm and lifted her up to a sort of a safer place... We pounded a few nails together.. What fun! I told her Not to tell her mother what wer did.. MY daughter ran into the house telling her mother 'WE were in the sky and I hammered nails'.. I would bet that I would ger at least a year in jail these days for making a little girl happy.. I would think child abuse these days.. I just wanted to make my little girl happy!
I and my brother climbed into the tops of many trees.. We survived with a few brokem bones..
Little girls
"I told her Not to tell her mother what we did.. MY daughter ran into the house telling her mother 'WE were in the sky and I hammered nails'.."
What did you expect Will? Girls do not follow instructions from us guys - even when they grow up.
Frosty
Stanley 112
Joe,
The large scraper plane is not designed to remove tearout in "patches". It's purpose is to scrape the entire surface flat.If you keep making passes over rhe entire surface of the board, you WILL get a tearout free surface and a very good cardio workout.
Dick
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