I’ve gotten the most recent copy of the hardwood market report printed in Memphis Tenn.
Too long to quote here but the short and long of it is, “Challenging Market conditions”
“production and supplies are abundant and steps are being taken to to reduce the volume”
Much of the sales remains confined to long standing customer/supplier relationships For example hard maple, white is now at $1.55 bd.ft. for FAS White oak is at $1.07 for FAS and red Oak is 94cents for FAS (northern area)
Comments like downward pressure on prices etc.. These are northern hardwoods, southern hardwood is 881/2 cents for white hard maple Red Oak is 85 cents white oak is 96 1/2 cents all are FAS Appalacian prices are $1. 51 1/2, for white hard maple, Red oak is 85 cents and white oak is $1.16 (all are FAS)
They have every commercially available wood and prices for all grades as well, excuse me if I don’t list whatever you are interested in,, Ask I’ll look it up for you. They also have Kiln dried prices and flooring prices as well.
Plus cants, pallet material, and railroad ties (before creosoate treating)
Replies
What am I missing ? They also have kiln dried prices ? FAS should come kiln dried.
The lumber yards in NE Ohio sure haven't heard of those those prices. ;-)
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I just paid 3.86bf for 5/4 red oak in Mass.
Paul
Edited 5/17/2007 12:54 am ET by pbww101
Paul
As Paul Harvey says,... and now the rest of the story
Grade of wood, dryness, sizes involved, and the big one quanity..
As I am not an expert in wood it was good grade straight grain no knots or any defects, kiln dried, about 11" wide and 9' long 5/4 just 1 board. Prices were marked on the limber rack. It was at Downes and Reader in Stoughton Ma. I hope that helps some. Please pardon my lack of knowledge on wood. I usually just pick through until I find something that catches my eye for whatever project I am doing.
Thanks,
Paul
pbww101
Sounds like FAS to me..
BruceS
Those are prices paid for wood sold by a sawmill, whole lot more story involved if you are interested..
FAS is the grade, Kiln dried is the dryness of the wood.. even that doesn't mean a lot, what moisture content has it been dried to? Some kilns bring wood down to 19% moisture, some will take it all the way down to 7% moisture. Occasonally you'll find a kiln drying lower than that.
Green wood can still be FAS
I totally agree with you on the grading (NHLA) is specific as to yield per board. Just that the mills in my area generally include drying. And luckily a few mills in the area are very particular about the drying process. The drying process is probably more important to me than the initial grading and yield.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
BruceS
Oh yes, drying can take a great board and turn it into firewood. Which is why I air dry all my wood.. first it's cheap (and as you can tell I love to be cheap) and second it's pretty hard to case harden air dried wood ;-)
I have one mill in the area that has about 1 acre of stickered lumber about 16' tall that dries for about a year before they polish it off in the kiln. Other times I have to settle for straight kiln dry from another mill. I'am lucky enough to have at least two dozen mills in the County, Mostly Amish, some Yankee. One mill/kiln owner doesn't even have a moisture meter, He's from(the old country literally) and one of the few places I can get 8-16 quarter lumber. He also carries 6 X 6 , 8 X 8 , 8 X 12 timbers(local hardwoods) Hard Maple/Cherry/Ash/Beech. Even has a stash of clear Chestnut.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Frenchy,
That report sounds like an interesting source of information -- where do you get it?
Thanks,
Andy
Andy,
It's a magazine sold to sawmills. Mine gives me their old copies, so my information is always at least a week old.
Frenchy,
Thanks.
I'm mystified by the way in which wood is priced, as well as the way(s) in which the quality of wood is assessed. Threads like this seem to clear away some of the smoke.
-Andy
Andy,
There isn't a real science to it, it's a combination of many factors..
For example if you go into a wood working store you'll see these neatly waxed pieces of burl etc. used for pen turners and such. They are often priced at $10.00 or $20.00 for small pieces that are a fraction of a bd.ft.
Often those are the cut offs of a board to make it grade higher.. burls and other interesting bits are considered by graders as defects.. so it's better to have a shorter board with defects removed than a longer board with without the defects.. a case where less is more expensive!
In addition it's a matter of finding markets for products.. The sawmill I use has no storage room so what they saw needs to find a home soon before weather degrades it..
Since styles and interest changes you can find a time like I did when you can buy black walnut for 17 cents a bd.ft. or now its selling for nearly $3.00 a bd.ft. (rough and green at the mill)
I bought 2000 bd.ft. of fiddleback maple which can sell for up to $350.00 a bd.ft. for just a dime a bd.ft.
Yeh the sawmill came across a fair bit (2000 bd.ft.) of fiddleback and asked a premium for it.. none of their traditonal markets had a buyer for it so it sat there for a year all stickered up and turning black.. once it had turned all black the sawmill was happy to accept my dime a bd.ft. rather than run it thru the shredder. The first pass thru the planner and the wood was perfect, better than perfect it was awsome!
To give you a better idea of the crazy prices because I've become friends with my sawmill they set aside any boards that won't grade well for me if they know that I will be interested. Often they simply give me those boards. Those are the fabulous boards.. soneat it's actually hard to find a place they are worthy of.. In addition even though they have a buyer who buys black walnut at a dollar over the market they will set aside walnut timbers if I ask them and sell them to me for about a third of the market price.. not only that but if the timber should have some defect in it that they didn't see before they saw it they will simply give me the resulting timber on the hopes that I can cut it up and find a place for it..
Now I buy a lot more wood than the average hobbiest ever would because I'm building my home with hardwood. a 5500 sq ft. double timberframed english tudor style home which thus far has consummed close to 50,000 bd.ft. of hardwood. Because of my relationship with my sawmill I've paid much less than 50 cents a bd.ft. for that wood and I calculated that it would sell at retail for $830,000 That's correct, 50,000 bd.ft. of hardwood for less than $25,000.00 ( a typical lumberyard bill for framing a house this size is around $80,000 and that's just for studs and plywood..)
I've tried to share the wealth, giving away a lot of my surplus wood, cut offs, and shorts.. I've been preaching for years about my sawmill and giving the name and location of the place (it's little more than a 1/2 hour away from the twin cities) Yet thus far nobody has taken them up on their generous nature..
OK, we haven't even spoken about sawmills that specialize. Some sawmills sell to predominately pallet mills.. pallet mills buy hardwood at 22 cents a bd.ft. go look at some pallets sometime. They are built with surprisingly great wood sometimes, really great wood like cherry and black walnut.. once they've been beaten around a loading dock for a while and turned all grey nobody notices the wood but you'd be surprised.
cants sell for 33.5 cents, that's a 4"x4"x8' cant for 33.5 cents per thousand bd.ft. railroad road ties ( before they are treated) sell for between 18 to 22 dollars each. that's a 9"x7" x8 1/2 feet long timber with no structural defects. Perfect for building a timberframe. They are built out of oak or maple or walnut or cherry etc.. Right now with the low price paid for lower grades of wood a sawmill will turn a lot of wood into railroad ties because it doesn't pay to saw the lower grades..
The bigger mills because they have more buyers don't seem to be as generous and smaller mills are constantly running scared, one step away from bankruptcy. This is a business where you pay the land owner in advance for the wood , then pay someone to saw it down, pay another person to haul it in, stack it, store it, untill you have enough to saw and make a load up with. you then send out your invoice and hope you get paid before the note comes due at the bank.
Prices change all the time. My sawmill is sawing wood they bought last fall when prices hadn't really started to tank.. thus they paid a premium for what's called stumpageIf everything goes perfectly they might break even..
They compete with nearly every other sawmill in the surrounding area and some lots which may have a lot of cherry or black walnut may command buyers from several states away.. Since a lot of hardwood is on state owned land the state get's involved and the private landowner can enlist the aide of state forestry specialists as well. Often because they are a bit removed from the real world markets they can set unrealistic minimum prices hold a bid and find no bidders. Then the dance really happpens..
Let's just say that it helps at that point to be a person of influeance!
To me, sawmills are facinating places with great stories. I enjoy the sights and sounds and smells.. The bargins are this wonderful icing on the cake..
Frenchy,
Very interesting!
I guess I have to get up the courage to ask about bargains at the sawmill that I go to. I buy such relatively small quantities of wood that I consider myself lucky that they even sell to me!
-Andy
Andy,
If your quanties are small then go together with friends and buddies to buy in big enough quantities to get some deals.. The wonderful thing about wood is it never goes to waste, buy too much of one wood and trade it for something else.. Make the deal good for everybody and they will come back to do it again.
Is your sawmill that you buy from a portable bandmill or a stationary mill? I have a woodmizer and saw my own hardwood. I don't sell much, but many portable bandsawmills cut and sell to individuals. You can get some fine wood that way for a very fair price. Some of them even operate their own kilns. For those who buy a fair amount of wood, research who has the portable mills in your area and give them a visit. Most will cut any log that you have for you. They also usually have a very large variety of species of wood, many that you cannot find at a retail store or distributor.
DHAM
Yes, mine is a large stationary mill. It's biggest blade is 60 inches but they seldom use that size unless they are in a grove of large timbers. Normally they use a 54 inch blade.. They actually have two mills in one location..
You are absolutely correct about people with bandsaw mills.. they are sorta the hidden resource of wood workers.. If you contact woodmizer they have a list of mills in your area (and every place has them even what we wouldn't consider as tree states,, places like Arizona and New Mexico) Once you get into the network you'll find out about others who also saw wood. here in the midwest at times it seems like every other farmer saws wood.. some have tractor powered mills some have mills that are powered with old Ford Model A engines and there are even a few steam mills.
Again about rare wood, it's the guys with the bandsaw mills that seem to find the odd, wierd, and unusual wood. Wood that is too small or too rare to have a market but has unique charcteristics never-the-less. A guy who uses his mill more as a hobby than a business might have the unique chunk of burl or odd bit or wood that makes a piece..
Those prices are for large quantities wholesale, like whole tractor trailer loads. Plus, they are F.O.B. which is freight-on-board. That means transportation cost is not included. With the high freight cost today, that can add a good bit to the price. Also, if you want to buy 15,000 feet at a time, you can buy for those prices. For the guy buying a couple of boards, the price will be much higher.
Even so, the worrisome thing is that the mills are in bad shape from foreign furniture imports and lower domestic demand. Prices are falling because mills cannot sell their production. Both the pine and hardwood sawmilling industry is seriously ill. That is not a good situation, even if prices are lower. The prices are not lower for healthy reasons, it is because their production is not selling at normal and sustainable levels.
FOB stands for "Free On Board". When used in trade terms, the word "free" means the seller has an obligation to deliver goods to a named place for transfer to a carrier. It depends on if it is FOB at the origin or at the delivery point as to who is responsible for the load and shipping costs.
DHAM
that really depends!
The prices given are for 1000 bd.ft. lots but often used for partial lots as well.. That doesn't mean that every sawmill sells at those prices..
Some of the samller ones need to sell at less so the consolidators can make their cut, larger ones might have established buyers who pay better prices than those listed..
Then there is the hassle factor.. Walk into a sawmill and act like a bigshot who expects to be cheated and you may not even be sold wood or if you are you'll pay several prices more.. Ask to sort thru a pile of graded wood and the price went up dramatically.
Treat them with respect and friendship and who knows what favors you'll get..
I absolutely agree that the sawmill industry is hurting right now.. Frankly they need to sell wood and if they bypass a few middlemen to do so I don't see that as a bad thing.. while middlemen honestly have their place and serve a real need. When times are as extreme as they are now they need help! a lot of help.. Hobbiests need wood and maybe one can help the other..
Frenchy, a few threads back (like this one), you gave me some generic advice on how to find decent deals on hardwood. While it wasn't anything specific, it did really help me focus in on how to go about it. After that, I found a deal on maple that I got for about .40 CENTS a board foot (1200 bf). I recently struck a deal with my sawyer and will be buying all the cherry and black walnut I want for a buck a board foot, rough sawn. I WAS paying 4 to 5 times more than this for my hardwoods, which was still 2 to 3 times less than the full price I started at. Many thanks for your wisdom and advice.Jeff
Jeff 100,
Hurray! I'm so glad I'm not the only person out there getting good deals. Spread the word.. explain to others about the deals and they might have you buy wood for them or trade some differant wood you might want.
I must caution you right now. ;-) !
This becomes addictive! You see the price others pay for wood and smuggly pat yourself on the back.. then the sawmill offers you a deal too good to refuse and so you buy even without a specific project in mind.. next thing you know you're surrounded by wood piles and your wife and kids have left you.
Hello my name is frenchy, I'm a woodaholic it's been two weeks since my last purchase,....
TOO LATE!!!!!!!!I've started construction on a solar kiln. I've got a deal coming on some black walnut, but no particular project in mind. But...I don't have a problem...,,I can quit any time I want....;-)
Jeff100,
OK buddy,, I'll be your sponser when you finally hit bottom and start storing green wood under the bed.
My story is worse than even that!
I found this deal on wood and tore down my house in order to keep buying more wood.. Normal construction wouldn't use enough wood so I built a timberframe... as if that weren't enough I decided I could use twice the amount of wood if I timberframed the outside like the do in Europe and timberframed the inside like is normally done in America..
Then if I went crazy about strength I could use even more wood, and well it's now going on 7 years and only rarely does a whole month go by without me buying at least a 1000 bd.ft.
Hello, My name is Frenchy and I'm a woodaholic
Frenchy, THAT was priceless, I LMAO reading your post. I can see that we are kindered spirits. Take care and thanks for the grin....JeffBTW, I bought the house I'm in now, with the intention of gutting it and doing a complete remod. I've finally got my woodshop done and am ready to go..never thought about a complete teardown. I can't imagine how much wood I'd have to buy for a rebuild like that....Hmmmmmmm......;-)
Jeff100
Here I am a confirmed woodaholic helping another potential woodaholic find more wood!?!?!
OK I'll fill you in on the deal.. I tore down about a 2500 sq.ft. house and built a 5500 sq.ft house on nearly the same footprint.. That's 50,000 bd.ft right there.
I did talk a friend into building a house doing the same thing.. He's a bit more modest but he tore down an 1100 sq.ft. house and put up a 4000 sq.ft. house and did it all for $100,000 (only about $6000 worth of wood) at $20.00 each for a 9x7 x 8 1/2 foot timber he was able to timberframe it for a few hundred bucks.. ( he built the second story for $9200 more than the first story cost but it gave him an additional 2000 sq.ft. {it's totally empty and I'm looking at it wondering if he'll let me store my cherry inventory)
He made all the beams ahead of time and trail fitted everything so he knew they would fit. Then he started shopping the surplus stores and bought all his windows for less than 1/4 of the price the lumberyards sell them for.. he also scored a great deal on an entry door ordered and returned because the swing was the wrong direction.. He then tore down his house and put up ICF's (They go together like giant foam leggos) From the time he tore down his house untill he had the roof on, doors and windows in place was less than a month. but it took him two years of part time work to get the house finished..
He did buy most of the wood in advance and had it stored up outside the garage where he did all the prebuilding..
He spends less per year heating the bigger house with the same furnace than he used to spend per year on heating..
He finaced it by getting a home equity loan in order to avoid the zillion questions banks have when you get a contruction loan.. Now he's in process of converting that home equity loan into a mortage, paying off his old mortage and the home equity loan at the same time.. he figures it's gonna cost him an additional $400.00 per month over his old mortage but because of the deduction of a new mortage he thinks his out of pocket might only be a couple of hundred bucks more per month..
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