I’m living in Japan and there is a native tree species here that is related to Elms called Keyaki (Zelkova serrata). It’s a beautiful wood that is hard and has a reputation of moving a lot. People here say don’t even try to make cabinets with it because it will twist and turn so much. When finished it is a beautiful wood and I’d like to give it a go but have reservations about using an expensive wood like this just to have it pretzel on me. My question is has anyone had any experience with this wood? How are other species worked into cabinets that have a tendency to move? Used as framed panels?
Thank you in advance,
pqken
Replies
This isn't going to masquerade as a real answer to your question but .....
The nurseryman who sold me one of those trees said that it was used for Japanese laquerware.
It grows very rapidly, not a good start for stability.
How did you get yourself over to Japan? I liked the place when I visited and could perceive that there was something deeply different about parts of the Japanese mentality from my own. I thought that the only way to experience it would be for an extended stay of a year or so. I just couldn't think of what I could possibly do over there in terms of occupation.
I work here at a local college, farm, and do woodcraft (as they call it here). How'd I get here, this is my third time here. Each time prior I enjoyed it so much I wanted to come back so I worked in that direction. I then met my wife in the states and because I had experience here I felt I'd get along better if we moved here rather than my wife moving to the states.What could you do here? Teach English, at least teach conversational English. A lot of people do this and there's a lot of places that hire people.
I live in Japan also and keyaki is used as an interior material in ####'s. The formal name for a tatami room. This wood is used for such things as the toku bashira which is a decorative post. It is very beautiful and expensive. I saw a huge keyaki tree this morning on my way to work. It was over 700 years old and was at a jinja along the road leading to Nikko.
I have never worked with the wood. I have only seen it in place.
I would like to know if anyone out there has any information on making a hot tub out of wood. The traditional wood used for a ohfuro is Hinoke. It is abundant here and local sawmills can cut it to any dimension that is required. I would like to build a circular hot tub but am lazy in doing the planning myself. What I have seen through ads is that they are constructed of materials about 1 3/4" thick, they use an angle of about 4 1/2 degrees on the staves and require no treatment as far as paint is concerned on the inside. That is the extent of my research. If someone knows something let me know!
Thanks in advance
Interesting you joined today, welcome. I wonder how many others are here in Japan making our own wood things. As you probably know this is not an inexpensive "hobby" here. What I know about hinoki is it is expensive as well, at least where I am. Not as expensive as Keyaki but still expensive. I've see some at the local sawmill and it was very clean, straight grained, no knots. It was ordered by some carpenters to be used in a sashiki in a house they were building. Ofuro, I've been meaning to ask about making an ofuro but seem to forget each time I go to the sawmill.
I wonder how many others are here in Japan making our own wood things. As you probably know this is not an inexpensive "hobby" here.
Is it the wood that makes it so expensive, or the price of tools? I get the impression that in Japan you're a bit less tool-addicted than we tend to be in America, so I'm guessing it's the wood?
What makes it expensive here is a variety of things. The price of land is one because it is difficult to find enough space to do any projects. I have seen on television where DIY people are doing projects on their balconies (which measure 3 feet x 9 feet). The wood is expensive, but high quality wood is expensive everywhere. Some of the woods use here may be considered exotic in other areas. The tools are extremely expensive. If you have the means to import tools from the U.S, you could save enough to cover shipping. This is for the exact tool sold here as is sold in America. If you like quality tools, Japan has some great hand saws, planes, and chisels. The circular saw blades are the finest I have ever used.
I have a real problem organizing and storing the collection of tools that I have accumulated from the U.S. as well as those purchased here.
Ohfuro is a Japanese Hot Tub. But people use the term loosely to mean the bathing area in a house. Most houses here use unit baths. They are simply manufactured rooms that can be assembled on site in one day and the second day the craftsman usually silicones the joints and puts the finishing touches on any windows that are in the bath.
Hinoke has a real fine smooth grain and is usually used for posts or "Hashira" in Post and Beam (Zairai Houses) here. The wood has the fragrance of cedar (I think that the U.S. name for the wood is something like Port Orford Cedar?? I think there is another wood Yellow Cedar that is very similar. Anyway, it is somewhat resistant to decay and very resistant to "shira are" (white ant) infestations.
The local price for Hinoke in Tochigi Prefecture is around 60,000 yen per cubic meter. And that is for wood that comes right out of the sawmill (green). I have not checked the seasoned prices. That price will vary greatly if you want clear vertical grain. But if you can use shorter lengths (less than 1820mm) 6' then you still might get some good prices.
Yesterday was the first chance I had to check out the discussion groups. I got my first issue of Fine Homebuilding only a few months ago.
Woodworking is not only my hobby, it is my profession. It really doesn't matter where you live, it is expensive but; it is also more rewarding and satisfying than most things in life.
I do not know how many foreigners here share our passion. There are many who teach English but I do not have many opportunities to meet or socialize because of conflicting working schedules. I would be interested to know as well.
I was in Japan several times.. Bath experience is something we in the USA not to use to!.. I got into it after the third try!Well, I still got all goggled eyed at the women... Love you folks!
If you are looking for something to make cabinet faces and doors, try "Tamo". I was making some casework for a project last year and wanted something to match oak cabinets. The Japanese equivalent to oak is "Nara" but it is either very expensive or simply not available. When I asked about "what else is out there? at a lumber yard, they suggested "Tamo". Tamo is "Ash" which is imported from Russia. To my surprise the lumber company stocked this wood in thicknesses starting at 24mm (about an inch) up to 100mm (about 4"). Widths started at around 6" up to 18", and lengths up to 4 meters.
This wood is easily milled and finishes very much like oak. There is a slight difference in the grain but most people will not notice. The best part about using Tamo is that it is available when you need it! If you ever need a good wood for a counter top, Tamo is also available in laminated form. I have ordered it 700mm width, 38mm thick and 4200mm long. This is a little pricy, 70,000 yen but it makes a good counter and it is cheaper than many other products. Delivery is usually one week.
Thanks for the suggestion. I can find tamo here (I'm on the west side of Japan). The reason I'm asking about keyaki is I have some left over from a table, and the local lumber guy has some older (20 yrs) boards, maybe about half a kokku worth. His pieces, being older, would be more stable, mine, still being 2 yrs since being cut would have a tendency to move. My plan, would be to frame the wide boards for doors and sides. So back to my question, will a frame hold keyaki?pk
I cannot answer that because of my limited use of keyaki. But any wood 20 years old should be properly seasoned. It should be as stable as it will ever get. You mentioned having materials left over from a table. How did the material react when you made your table? How does the wood react when it is ripped? I think you can answer your own question with your previous experience.
What is a kokku?
mikku
Thanks for your reply.Koku is the measurement the mills use to sell and buy wood here. "Ichikoku" = 30cm X 30cm X 3 meters long. As you may know, when you buy the wood you can have it cut anyway you want. When it arrives at the mill it's either a squared log cut to the koku deminsions or a round log uncut. Are you from Finland, or is it your parents ancestrial land? Reason I ask is I was wondering if the Finns, like the Japanese, wash before entering the bath.Keyaki, as stated previously does move quite a bit. But keep in mind most keyaki (I've seen) is plain sawn for tables. Being that this post has veered so far off topic I'll re-post in a different folder.pk
I have only dealt with purchasing lumber per cubic meter (lew-bei?) Your dimensions yield an amount of .27m3.
My parents ancestory is Finland, I was born in the U.S., I do not know about other Finns but I bathe before entering a sauna, mainly because soap skum accumulates on the interior wood surface of a sauna. If you wash before entering and use the sauna mainly for steam; then your sauna will remain new looking for years and retain the fragrance of the interior wood. Finns collect young cedar boughs and tie them together into a type of wisk. Then they put the "viftas" on the hot stones of the sauna stove and throw water on the stove. The steam that results fills the room with the aroma of cedar. They then swat themselves with the "viftas" to promote good circulation and give their bodies the fresh scent of cedar. You can do the same with leafy trees like birch also.
Before entering a hot tub here, I do the same. That is thoroughly cleanse and rinse myself before soaking in the tub. I have never felt clean using a bath tub alone like in the U.S. and other countries. I could not see the point of washing in a bath tub and soaking in all the soap scum and oils and dead skin that come off when you bath; just to finish by standing up and re-coating yourself with the same skum.
I have a vivid imagination and usually do not know when to quit talking.
Thanks for the info.
mikku
I'm sorry I don't have time to leave a long post right now, I just wanted to mention that I have a fifty year old keyaki bonsai that was given to me by an elderly man in Sendai.
I could'nt transport it to the U.S. so my father in law is taking care of it at his home, which is on a bautiful lake on the side of mount Zao.
I have some advise for you on your ofuro, but I'll have to leave it at another time.
P.S. I was drooling as I was reading your post about the aundance of hinoki there.
Have you thought about Hiba as an alternative? It's very fragrant.
Good bye for now.
Nice screen name "Mr. Carpenter", I am looking forward to your advice. Hiba is a little more expensive than Hinoke. I just cut down three Hinoke at my building site. One chunk at the stump was about 18" through, but it split when I cut the tree down. I ended up with a clear log about 6 feet long that was split from end to end. It ended up being the beginnings of a sauna bench. (one for sitting on and cooling off after some good hot steam).
Do you get the chance to return to visit relatives often?
Back to the hot tub plans... There are many companies who make these tubs but really pricy. Anyone have experience in making one?
On building a wood ofuro.My suggestion would be to visit a Japansese Ryokan (traditional Japanese hotel), many have the old style wooden tubs. I'll add that the ones I've been to have had discoloration from mold and mildew.When we had our bath remodeled we were considering making an ofuro (the bath tub). My wife's uncle, who built the house put in the new bath (bath room). (He's 90 years old and around here would be considered a daikusan opposed to a house builder.) When we asked about a wood ofuro (bath tub) he advised against it because of the mold and mildew.I know many will say cedar will retard mold and mildew. But I wonder if over time the agent that retards these micro organisms becomes ineffective due to leaching. Edited 11/28/2005 6:03 pm ET by pqken
Edited 11/28/2005 6:04 pm ET by pqken
You are lucky to have someone with so much experience remodeling your home. I would call him an "oyakata daiku".
My inquiry about a hot tub would be for an outdoor bath (covered) that would be adjacent to a sauna. My ancestry is Finnish, and by tradition the first structure built at a new homestead would be a sauna. The wood stove that would heat the sauna could also heat the water for the ohfuro. I am still undecided which is hotter- a sauna or an ohfuro?
I have built many saunas and never had a problem with mold or mildew. We have always used our sauna's as steam rooms only and bathed in a separate area. The same holds true for the ohfuro. But the sauna rooms always had adequate ventilation so that they could dry out when not used.
I do not know if the natural oils in Hinoke or other cedars leach out with time. I would hope that if the tubs were cleaned after each use and the area kept well ventilated that the conditions that promote mold and mildew could be controlled.
It is just a thought. I am trying to complete my design for a new house now and to incorporate some things into a site plan.
Thanks for your advice!
Purchasing Zelkova
Hey,
I'm trying (without success) to purchase some Zelkova to turn a pen and pencil set for a co-worker/friend of mine whose wife is Korean. With you living in Japan could you direct me to a source where I can get this wood?
Thank you,
Mike
[email protected]
Working with keyaki
Hi! I was in Japan in the 80's & 90's. I made many things from air dried keyaki, or zelkova seratta as it's species name. Everything I made is still totally intact to this day. Even turning bowls on a lathe, they too are fine. I did nothing fancy in terms of joints nor took steps to prevent warping or cracking. Nothing cracked! For 25 years,!whether living in Southern California, Arizona or going back to Japan, every piece I made has fared very well.
Working with zelkova serrrata
Hello keyaki0125, I have just seen your post of 2016! I have an old item from Korea which I believe is made of zelkova serrata wood but I can’t find many pics of it on line I am very intrigued by your experience with this wood and think you have probably seen many examples of the graining, etc. Because this item is old, it has been stained, oiled or both and no longer has any blond tones but I have pics of raw unstained wood (taken from inside) and pics of the outside. Would you possibly be willing to look at my pics and give me your personal opinion as to whether you think it looks like zelkova serrata? I would be so very grateful! Thanks for reading bo234
Box234: It looks very much like Zelkova (Keyaki). Slabs of it are available in Sacramento, Calif, at Urban Woods (Sacramento Tree Foundation).
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