I just watched Norm build a Federal style game table, and all of you hand tool junkies would be delighted to know he made his dovetails by hand — no machines!!
Now that he has seen the light, does this mean the end to Norm-bashing?
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Replies
Poor Norm. He must have one of the nicest personalities around. He put up with Bob for years and managed to put together a good TV show. Just because he isn't a master cabinetmaker yet, is no reason to bash him. He keeps improving his skills. I bet running a TV show is a lot harder than cutting dovetails. Just imagine the corporate pin heads he has to deal with. I say. "good for you Norm". He has managed to make a career out of his love of woodworking, I hope they pay him well. He's one of us, great cabinetmaker or halfast carpenter.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
What I really like about Norm is 11 years after he finished his house the stairway was still just plywwod and several planned projects hadn't been started.;. if that doesn't say he's one of us I don't know what will!
Frenchy,
If Norm is one of us , which I tend to think he is , do you think he's on the forum listening ? Norm are you out there ?
Tim
I think Norm's alias is Forest Girl!
Tom,
This is not a rant on Norm...I enjoy him. But, when he says.."so I made a template...and now I will take this and with my blank, blank, blank, etc...." I mean, crap, the templates the hard part...lol. He did show, last week, a couple of little template tricks for a piece on the lathe...used a french curve and the holes in plastic drill size chart for drawing the curves...
Well he's a public figure which means someone's going to bash him, no matter how much light he sees.
One thing you can say about Norm. Even though he's a NewEnglander, he still manages to pronounce Forstner correctly while his California counterpart - David Marks - loses the R alltogether and says Fahstner. Go figure.
If you build it - he will come.
what I like about his show is that each show is a 1/2 hr long and he does not talk crap he just goes straight to it.
hey i agree with you norm just gets to it lets our others senses besides hearing pick things up and focus on needs to be seen and remembered...cheers andyo
Haven't watched the program religiously for awhile, but I do sense a slow but steady drifting toward some more traditional methods.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
as for dealing with the "corporate pin heads"..........safe to say Russ Morash does that since he is the producer and the New Yankee Workshop is actually on his property. Norm is a very talented faceWicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
"corporate pin heads" -- that was Hammer, in #2 above. Whoa - thought I'd picked up a new phrase unknowingly, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Nik,
I love Norm. I watch 'Cheers' reruns just to see him
OH... The other Norm??? The bearded guy who says "Ah sem bah lie" ?
Steinmetz .
Could never stand that 'Taiwanese wrench salesman',(who hogged the limelight)
Can't recall the name but he has the personality of a dungeon door.
Stein
Edited 2/12/2005 10:33 pm ET by steinmetz
<<"'Taiwanese wrench salesman'">>Huh????
Nik
He sells crappy pliers and wrenches for Sears now
(Usually on late night TV)
Bobbeela? Vealer? Bob Squeela ?.... Spieler? YEAH!
Steinmetz.
Edited 2/13/2005 6:10 am ET by steinmetz
Oh ------ that guy!But I'll bet he has sold a lot of wrenches for Sears over the years -- although not enough apparently to keep Sears out of the clutches of Kmart.
I'm no Norm basher, but I am doubting Norm is getting true religion. As he pointed out in the show, the reason he was cutting the dovetails by hand was that the mating piece, an apron, was circular (made of bent laminations) and wouldn't fit in the dovetail jig.
I am one who believes Norm has single handedly done more to promote the exploding interest in woodworking than than any other individual.And I have always been amused when he is bashed because he favors machines over hand tools.From afar, he has always struck me as a proud, gritty, determined sort of guy -- and I wouldn't be surprised if he chose that project for the series largely because he could show the naysayers that he was indeed capable of cutting a set of dovetails by hand.
Have to whole heartedly agree with Nikkiwood. Norm is probably the best known woodworker in the world.Put the names Sam Maloof, Krenov and Norm on the table and see how many people know the 3.He's not there to educate the self proclaimed experts,but to introduce the regular guy or gal to the joy of woodworking,and to make a living for his family.It would be interesting to find out how many people in this forum and others got involved in the the woodworking hobby because of Norm and the New Yankee Workshop.I really think the Norm bashing has had it's day and instead we should all acknowledge his contribution to our hobby.I'm pretty sure it's safe to say we wouldn't have the array of tools available to us today if not for New Yankee and shows like it creating consumer demand.
And by the way , this is not the first time Norm has cut dovetails by hand.I don't remember the episode,but if anyone wants to challenge this, I have them all on tape and will spend the time to find it.
Brent
I saw that episode, too. As always, he made it look about as hard as making a sandwich. There's more to it, I've found, but I have kind of gotten the hang of it. Anybody here ever watch Roy Underhill? His show (Woodwright's Shop) oughta satisfy the hand tool folks (myself included.)CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie -I thoroughly enjoyed reading Roy's book (The American Woodright, I think it was called) and eagerly searched out his TV show. But I was totally turned off by his attitude ... always seemed to be interrupting his guest and grabbing stuff out of the guest's hands to try it himself. I only saw one episode so perhaps he's not always that way, none the less the TV show wasn't as entertaining as his book. - for me at least............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Charlie,
I have to agree with you and others, Norm has done a lot for our woodworking world and deserves more than bashing. You can bet I would use all of those power tools too, if someone were to give them to me.
I enjoy watching Roy Underhill too, he is always an entertaining joy that only a purist could love. We have room for all of them, and they say so much more to us than those "Instant Remodel" shows that seem to be all the rage today.
Am I the only one that misses Home Improvements, and loves the reruns? I love the way he so thinly veils the Bob Villa foul ups!
Woody
see that show sometimes. Why would anyone spend all of that time making a project if they were in business. I talked to an "artist" that makes wood tables. Carves them and all of that stuff. Sells them for about $8000 each and says that when she figured out the cost of materials, the time she had in the project, she gor an amaising $4 per hour for her work.
wow, that's impressive. anyone that works for that kind of money is nutz.
I watch Roy Underhill when he's on, but he drives me crazy when he starts shoving stuff around so he can do the next bit of work. Not that I'm much better, mind you. - lol
I completely agree that Norm has probably brought more people into woodworking than anyone else. I've watched him for years and - at first - it was to see how something was done. Now, I find myself watching him and thinking of how I would do that given the tools that I have.
I also agree that "his" shop is a little over the top for the majority of hobbyists. Very few DIY'ers have a 36" drum sander - or a separate finishing room.
"He's not there to educate the self proclaimed experts,but to introduce the regular guy or gal to the joy of woodworking,and to make a living for his family."
Brent,
I guess that's been, and remains, the biggest knock on Norm, for whom I do have a great deal of respect nonetheless. The "regular guy" doesn't own a hollow chisel mortiser or wide-belt drum sander or 20" band saw, 15" planer, Unisaw with massive extensions, a shop the size of some folks' houses, a multi-router, and on and on.
So when that guy/gal sits there watching Norm do his thing, (s)he's usally saying something like, "Yeah, I could do that too, if I had that kind of equipment," and often winds up determining that it's not worth starting without making a huge capital investment.
On a tangential subject, I have to ask - Is it me, or does Norm rely on the pneumatic nailer a little much for the non-production woodworker? I understand needing to do that in a production shop, but for the serious amateur or hobbyist, it really seems to take away from the experience of hand-crafting something. And he doesn't limit his nailing to cabinet backs. He often uses the technique to stabilize carcases and other things that could also be done with glue and a decent joint.
Anyway, he is indeed responsible for increased awareness of woodworking, but I'm not sure it's always the kind of awareness that spurs new woodworkers. I am glad, though, that he hand-cut some dovetails, whatever the reason.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
I agree that such a show would benefit by having a collection of machinery that is within reach of most small shop owners. The only over the top piece of equipment I have seen lately is that $10,000 wide belt sander. But then, we all know that the same function can be performed with a regular old sander -- it just takes more time. I think all the other equipment is reasonable. IMHO the pneumatic nailer is the greatest thing to hit woodworking since the invention of circular saw blade. A gun can be had for $100 and a compressor for $150 or so, which seems pretty reasonable. I don't know what he's using now, but I have seen a lot of shows where he plunked that $300 portable planer on his bench, and had at it. No, aside from that big sander, I have been in a lot of home shops that had the same range of equipment Norm uses -- and some had stuff that was a lot more upscale.
Hey Mitch,
I understand what you are saying about all the big ticket machinerie in the shop,alot of woodworkers don't have that kind of set up.I don't think it turns people off to the hobby though.A few years back FWW did a story on Norm and the NYW.In the story Russ Morash said when he developed the idea for the show it was geared towards executives with an interest in woodworking and some cash to burn,therefore the full shop setup.
As to the pneumatic nailer,if I remember correctly,they also said in the same article that Norm builds 3 of each project,pretty much single handidly in 3 or 4 days of shooting.I would imagine the use of the nailer cuts down considerably on wasted time waiting for glue ups to dry.
It was also stated in the arcticle that any tools that are used on the show Norm trys out before hand,and are only used during taping if he considers them useful and well made.
By the way thanks for the e-mail,glad the idea worked out.How did the wife like her present?
Brent
Brent,
No disagreements. I think if this were a Family Handyman forum, the opinions might differ considerably.
As for the project, let's just say that I'm a "lucky" man. :-) I'll post a picture of the heart on the thread soon. I've hesitated because it's not what you'd call professional quality by any stretch, but she loves it and that's really what matters.
See ya,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
MVAC
pneumatic nailer verses?
I claim absolutely no talent whatsoever.; and if I can pull a trigger on something and have a well placed nail installed without a struggle you can bet your bippy I'll buy one (or in my case 7 different kinds) and you know what? I have yet to just wail on a bent over nail in frustration.
Am I now guilty of spending more time dragging out air hose, nail gun and such then you could just drive it in with a hammer and set, sure! but see the above comment about bent over nails.
Face it, I failed Woodshop in school because I hadn't developed any skills prior to that class. first time I sawed piece of wood was in that class. Were my skills less than a kid who grew up with tools and already knew how to use them? Yeh! But look at me now baby!
You may be a better craftsman than I am, but I'm having fun and being creative!
Frenchy Baby,
I don't know that I'm a better craftsman than you or the vast majority of people on this forum. Maybe 10 years from now, if I'm as active in and enthused about my woodworking as I am now, I'd think about using that term for myself. And something tells me you have a tad more talent than you're admitting to.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "I'm having fun and being creative!" This stuff is too demanding, precise, and often unforgiving of mistakes, to work at it and not have fun.
And I'm waiting for the day when I feel I can afford to buy the Porter-Cable Finish Nailer/Brad Nailer/Pancake Compressor combo; so believe me, I'm not knocking the tool or its use.
But I do so get a kick and a special sense of accomplishment from doing something by hand, and in my mind - I'm not speaking for anyone else - joinery is so fundamental to woodworking that using a nailer in some of the situations Norm does would feel like cutting corners to me.
Have you ever hand-cut dovetails? There are two dozen different ways to effectively join two pieces of wood together. It took me months, of making some of the sorriest-looking joints you have ever seen in your life, before, all of a sudden, I got it. And something inside of me wouldn't let me let go of it until I'd done it. I cannot describe the joy, real joy, that I experienced when I made a box with a set of dovetails so tight that I didn't even have to glue them.
Some folks say "Forget that - I'm getting the Leigh dovetail jig," or "I've got better things to do with my time than spend hour upon hour getting frustrated and discouraged." And others say "I'm gonna get this if it kills me!"
For all I know, you use your nailer frequently so you can go on to more interesting things like making dovetails, or routing fine details into your work, or whatever.
I don't think there's a wrong or a right when it comes to using most tools or methods, unless they result in poor quality. But the point most people have made on this thread is still valid - Norm's target audience is made up of people who don't own many or most of the tools he uses, including pneumatic nailers. And, especially in a group of folks who subscribes to Fine Woodworking, it's not surprising that many of us see the nailer as a great tool for only a limited number of applications.
So, in conclusion (Yay!), my response to your question: "pneumatic nailer verses?", I would probably say, glue and clamps, and any number of joints that reflect a level of skill that one has to practice to perfect (some less than others). But above all, I sure as hell don't think you're guilty of anything, and I can tell from your post that you don't spend any time feeling guilty either. Excellent!
This has been a great thread, and I appreciate your point of view.
Regards,
Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Edited 2/15/2005 1:41 pm ET by mvac
Amen to that.
I agree with you completely. I love Norm! I have his books and watch the show whenever I can. And I, too, probably would not have been drawn to woodworking had I not seen some of those shows. But it is an observation — not a criticism — that the show is top-heavy with machinery. He resorted at one point yesterday to spending five seconds at some humongous lateral belt-sanding machine that I doubt has found a place in many hobbyists’ workshop. And I understand why. Delta / Porter Cable has outfitted the shop for free (costs are not an issue), and the show’s production schedule and Norm’s other commitments preclude his fretting for days over some detail of marquetry. The show is what it is and it’s pretty darn good. (P.S. I did notice a couple of episodes ago he was using a Lamello biscuit joiner, so not everything that whirs and hums there is a Black and Decker / Delta / Porter Cable product.)
nikki,
"he was indeed capable of cutting a set of dovetails by hand."
Ah, but did he "add just a few nails here for strength" Kathock!..kathock..kathock!!
Ray
Funny that everyone seems to have seen the episode .
Tim
I was thinking the same thing. The people who think he's a piece of s**t have seen every episode.
I am one who believes Norm has single handedly done more to promote the exploding interest in woodworking than than any other individual.
This is undoubtedly true. Norm's brought more people into woodworking, myself included, than anyone.
One thing you can say about Norm. Even though he's a NewEnglander, he still manages to pronounce Forstner correctly while his California counterpart - David Marks - loses the R alltogether and says Fahstner. Go figure.
Counterpart? Norm's not in the same league.
OTOH, he's not supposed to be. On the DIY network website, Marks' show is labelled as for the "intermediate and advanced" hobbyist woodwork. Norm's show is clearly and introductory approach.
It's for this reason, BTW, that I fault Norm more for his use of multi-$K sanders, than David for the Multirouter and his 16" jointer (albeit a used one).
"Counterpart? Norm's not in the same league."
When I used counterpart, I only meant it in the sense that they're both hosts of nationally televised WW shows. It wasn't meant as a comparison of skill or talent. Personally, I'd rather watch David's show. I get more ideas and challenges from him than the Duke of Flannel. That still doesn't stop me from thinking that he ought to ditch the MultiRouter though. I can't imagine you'd find too many of those in the shops of "intermediate and advanced" hobbyist woodworkers". I feel pretty much the same as you re: Norm's use of the multi-$K sanders for his audience. At least when Norm heads over to it, he usually says something like "...if you're lucky enough to own one of these wide belt sanders....". David heads for his Multi-Router and dives in as if we all have (or should have) one stashed in the corner of our shop.
If you build it - he will come.
I'm in total agreement about your remarke concerning David Marks' use of the multi-router. How many pros have that? Or maybe I should ask how many pros do comfortably without it? I sure couldn't afford it.
With WoodWorks, while Marks' machines are generally bigger and more powerful than mine, with the exception of the multi-router I can pretty much copy his actions if I wanted to go that route.
For me, though, the real utility in watching his show is getting practical ideas that I can implement and incorporate into my own design projects. Plus, I have to admit, Marks has a much more contemporary design ethic, while Norm doesn't so much design as he does copy stuff, and usually it's too traditional for my taste.
With the advent of TiVO (How I lived without it before I do not know), I have season passes for both shows, and I wind up saving a lot more WoodWorks shows to VCR than NYW. Just my preference; but I think Marks, his sickly-sweet narrations aside, is the better teacher. And is it me, or did he corner the market on Claro Walnut?Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
What makes you think Marks is originally from California? He doesn't sound like he is, even if he never tries to say Forstner.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
He lives in Santa Rosa, California
I know where he lives now, but he sounds like he's from back east.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Marks is from Jersey...just to clear that up... "Master woodworker David Marks first became interested in working with wood as a college student in California. The New Jersey native started by creating small items from driftwood found along the beach and selling them in crafts shops and at street fairs."
Sounds like a bit of a hip-pie to me! Not that it matters. One thing that bugs me about him- when he's finishing a pretty large piece, he uses a 1" cheapie natural bristle brush. He puts some finish on, then wipes the excess off. I don't have a problem with the prosess, but why does he mess around with such a small brush? It would go a lot faster with something wider. Any thoughts?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
It could be that Norm is like me, I tend to get real sloppy the wider my brush is and a narrow brush forces me to be more tidy and carefull.;
I was referring to Marks. Watch him some time when he's finishing something big. It's like he's just dabbing the finish on, not really brushing it on and smoothing it out. I'll ask him at the Woodworking Show next week. Maybe it's because of the camera angle. I definitely see other things caused by that on his shows and Norm's. Either the camera will block the light or it's just in the way.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Sounds like a bit of a hip-pie to me!
Yea, have you seen old pictures of him? There's one in "The Workshop Book" by Landis. ;)
Becaust it's cheaper than the 2" brush?
Just a thought.
D
The ones I see him using on the show are $.49 each. Since he's using oil based finishes, he can clean it, too. It should be in the show's budget. I use the same kind for some jobs, but nothing big. Since he's wiping the excess off anyway, why not just cover more surface faster? Time spent vs cost of brushes has to mean something.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Joinerwork,
Did you watch Norm cut those half blind dovetails?? ...his form was impecable (thought I was watching Philip Lowe...not)...he cut the pins in half to cut down on the work....ah, geees....he,he.. I do love his bravery though
BG, and Tim,
Didn't see the episode. "I'll just add a few nails for strength! kathock, kathock, kathock" is a line that my son and I use whenever either of us see Norm on the tv. Seems to fit in, whatever Mr Abrams is doing. wouldn't be too surprised if he nails down his polyurethanefor good measure.
Regards,
Ray
I have watched Norm for years and agree that he has popularized woodworking for the average Jane and Joe more than anyone else recently. I also agree that he uses way too many nails in his assembly process. Hey, Norm, just glue and clamp - the nails aren't necessary.
Also, the one thing that really bugs me is that he never uses a blade guard on his table saw, nor is there a splitter installed - yet he always talks about shop safety at the start of the program - just hope he manages to keep all his fingers!
PAT,
Well, to each his own, I guess. None of the three shops I worked in prior to opening my own used blade guards or splitters, either. None had an air nailer either, or I'd likely have one of my own. Amazing how we tend to adhere to practices we learned early on in our training. Someone a long time ago probably explained to Mr Abram that three or four nails are good insurance, and only take a couple seconds more time.
Regards,
Ray
Ray, I agree, we are each a product of our early training. Except when we decide for ourselves that something we are doing is hazardous and decide to depart from that early training. I have met a couple of people who suffered injuries from lack of attention and failure to use the safety devices that came with their tools. One just pushed his hand holding the stock into the TS blade - came to work a couple of days later bandaged to the elbow. I left before he got the bandages off so don't know how much damage was done. Would not have happened with a guard in place.
No one intends to be careless or inattentive, but we all are at some time - what protects us then if we do not have the guards in place?
PAT,
No arguments from me. Like the disclaimer in the front of the magazine says, if it feels unsafe to you, don't do it. Lots of folks don't have any use for guns for the same reason. One careless or inattentive moment...
Regards,
Ray
None of the three shops I worked in prior to opening my own used blade guards or splitters, either.
Which is in driect violation of OSHA rules. If the local inspector showed up one day, possibly as the result of an "accident", the employer could be in for big fines.
I guess I'm sensitive to this because of what recently happened to the tenant I rent out the old mobile home on my property to. He works in a wood shop. No guards on the table saws. Well, you guessed it, in spite of his years of experience, he ended up slicing up his thumb real good. They came real close at the hospital to amputating (it was cut lengthwise, really messed up), in spite of his pleadings that he made a living with his hands and it was his livelihood at stake. They agreed to save it, but told him if it had been another 1/8" of an inch or so it wouldn't have been possible.
This guy's of somewhat limited means, and it's too bad he had to deal with this, partly out of the negligence of his employer.
Barry,
I didn't intend to advocate not using safety equipment. My next door neighbor cut off the end of his left thumb this past summer on his tablesaw. He's retired, been working wood his entire working career. The lack of a guard on the saw was his choice, and he's the first to tell you it was his carelessness that caused the carnage.
Be careful out there.
Ray
i agree that Norm has been an inspiraation to us self taught woodworkers. with his show and my trial and error ways i'm slowly progressing. also think Scott Phillips does a nice job. he only lives 20 minutes from me in ohio. would love to pick his brain someday
I have to say tatI enjoy watching Norm much more than Marks. If marks is better or good at all it is not apparent tyo me watching his show. Very little detail about how it is done. also, he uses the same finish on everythign. Whats up with that? I'm not impressed with David marks at all.TDF
Tom,
Marks can get full of himself with his glowing/flowing overdubbed descriptions of the piece he's making, and that multi-router will probably never see the light of day in my small shop.
That said, I like the style of furniture Marks tends to produce - much more contemporary - and, while I respect Norm and TiVO his show all the time, IMHO he's a great carpenter. I do think Marks is an excellent woodworker, and some differences include Marks' designing much of his own stuff, having a massive collection of years-old woods of all different species, and never, to my knowledge, having used a pneumatic nailer on the show (I'm sure someone will now point out the show I missed where he did use one).
There's a reason Norm wears a toolbelt - he fixes, as well as builds, stuff. Nothing wrong with that at all, and a lot of his projects are more practical tham Marks'. Still I wouldn't group him in the same category as Marks, Lonnie Bird, Franz Klaus, et al. But hey, this is all subjective stuff, and I learn from both of them.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
you could not have said it any better than that
Mitch,Good assessment of both. I agree. Both good craftsmen, but different.TDF
To those Normans among you - I had an interesting email show up yesterday from NYW. I bought one of their plans 2-3 years ago and apparently signed up for their mailing list. Never got anything until now. Anyway it was an annoucement of a drawing where you can enter and win a geniune Norm Abrams Adirondack Chair. Just thought I'd pass this along if anyone was interested.
http://www.newyankee.com/yankeecam.shtml
If you build it - he will come.
I wish I had a pnuematic nailer. I don't use many nails, but hammering them in has always seemed a bit of a pain. It's like sanding. I bie 99.9% of us use at least one kind of power sander. I get so sick of this hand tools vs. power tools BS. I use them both. Does anybody want to give up his/her table saw?I don't think anyone would put Norm in the same category as Bird, Klaus or Krenov. Those guys advanced the ART of woodworking. I'm not as familier with Marks. I don't subscribe to cable so I don't see his show. That's another thing about Norm, he's on PBS so you don't have to pay to see him.
Hollywood,
"I wish I had a pnuematic nailer. I don't use many nails, but hammering them in has always seemed a bit of a pain."
You know what? I wish I had one too. Every time I see that P&C pancake compressor/brad nailer/finish nailer combo, I start to salivate. It would be great for somany things - Attaching crown moulding, shoe moulding, etc. Temporarily holding some things in place during/prior to glue-up in places where they'd never be seen. Attaching the back on the occasional carcass that I choose to put a hardboard back on. And lately, with my elbow tendinitis, swinging a nail isn't even a consideration.
So, I don't disagree. I just think of Norm as more of a carpenter. And I've learned a lot from carpenters, especially since my dad was one, and I always respected the work he did.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
I have that nailer combo and I it is just great well worth the money.
MT-
I agree. My wife bought me a brad nailer as a gift. It was the second tool she ever bought me. The first was a circ saw. Anyway, she bought it because she wanted me to build her custom floating shelving.
Now that I have it - I use it alot. Making jigs, holding pieces together with while no need for clamps. It's great. For those of you who knock Norm for having it I say - try it you'll like it. I do.
LaterThank you,
The Great Marko
i agree with you wholeheartedly.i've been a carpenter now for 26 or 27 yrs.and after i'd done some of the very basic things that norm showed us 15 or 18 yrs ago was when i expanded my interests into the kind of things that i do now with hepplewhite and sheraton.i have a four month wait on four-poster beds and i believe if norm had not peaked my interest in the first place,i might well still be doing houses instead of bringing chests of drawers to them.so,you knock him all you want,i will always have a respect for him.i would never have the nerve to do what he does.
I am with you nikki. I started watching norm three- four years ago and he was really the reason i got into this hobby.
I decided to check out Norm's, The New Yankee Workshop. Some of you may have some more bitching ahead.
http://www.newyankee.com/2005.shtml Highboy
Programs #1709 & #1710 (2-part)
Saturday, March 5, 2005
Saturday, March 12, 2005Take a look and read some of the letters viewers have sent in. We should all hope that our valued customers fell the same way about us. Ron in mass
Anyone else beside me noticed that they have taken Norm off the HGTV network? He was removed from the saturday broadcast a while back and now he is no longer on the sunday show either. Been replaced by "House Detective". Well back to PBS I guess. I miss the show already. If this has already been discussed, forgive my ignorance. Dale
Yeah, I noticed he is now gone from Sundays too. Bummer -- sure beats the stuff my wife now wants to watch.
Woody
Dale--
I have also noticed that HGTV has nixed Norm from the lineup. It is a bit frustrating. It just ruins my morning routine. I used to get up watch Norm and then work in the shop for the rest of the morning. Now I changed my routine to watching David Marks that I TIVO-ed from earlier in the week. I like David Marks but watching Norm was like a tradition.
HGTV changes their programming frequently as the expense of woodworking show. However, DIY Network does a nice job with woodworking programs. DIY is a network that is a spin off of HGTV. You may have heard of it or get it. DIY has shows on carving, turning, tools and techniques. I watch it alot. Call your cable company or DIRECT TV which is how I get it.
Happy saw dust making,Thank you,
The Great Marko
I really like that new woodturning show on DIY.
I like it too. I do not have a lathe. But I am thinking that it is the next machine that I want. I have only turned once at a friends house. I loved it. And the DIY show has really gotme interested. Do you turn?
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Nope. I don't have a lathe. But that show has gotten me really interested. The instructor does a great job.
My fellow Wood Workers,
This is great. Everyone chatting about tools and professionals. I myself continue to hone my skills by watching, Norm, Marks, and even Bob. I read all the post, as many books as I can and watch with great detail. Sure some shows offer insight for some people to dream about but I watch for skills and techniques. What have I learnd? Jigs are better than free handing something. Don't rush your work. Have a plan. and above all have fun. I practice my skills and usually test cut everything. I learned my lesson there. Sure I use hand and alot of power tools. But something must be right. I have people coming to me to build for them.
JOE
"even a broken watch is correct twice a day"
Yes, how many of you critics missed that one???
I'm not a Norm basher. (or I try not to be) But I think if he's trying to teach woodworking to the average guy on the street he should be teaching using the same basic tools his viewers might have or can afford. This might not include 48" panel sanders.. I've been at it for 30 years and don't have half of the equipment he has. I'm not going to ask my wife for $150,000 so I can make an end table like Norm. But $300 for a card scraper, a belt sander, and a 1/4 sheet pad sander is something different...OK so maybe I am a Norm basher. I just would like to see more methods taught that can be performed by the average Joe.(or Joanne)
My 2 cents.
"... I think if he's trying to teach woodworking to the average guy on the street he should be teaching using the same basic tools his viewers might have or can afford."
You're right. His equipment doesn't seem real well matched to his target audience. In his defense though, Norm's not the only one guilty of this. I have the same beef every time David Marks' DIY show fires up his $4K Multi-Router. I'm thinking if you've got the justification for owning one of those, you're probably a pro and don't really need to watch his show. On the flip side of the coin though is the 'Router Workshop' PBS show where every single thing they do is done with a router. I fully expect one day to see them spend the whole show making an elaborate jig for somehow driving a nail with a router. At least Norm occasionally shows alternate methods for accomplishing the same thing, although some of his equipment choices are questionable given his audience.If you build it - he will come.
I have always envied, and admired, the way Norm was able make a living while pursuing his passion, without grovelling for customers. This is in conflict with my inability to take anyone seriously who wears a tool belt in a cabinet shop. C'mon Norm, loose the belt. You will still be recognize in your plaid shirt, and the minute you open your mouth, we'll all know it's The New Yankee Workshop.Tom
What's wrong with the tool belt I wear one all the time. Good place for the remote controls and pencils and rulers. Never did care to wear the apron.
doug
I fully expect one day to see them spend the whole show making an elaborate jig for somehow driving a nail with a router
Now thats funny, and I couldnt agree with you more!
I always get a kick out of those guys, if it can be done it can be done with a router.
Doug
You forgot to mention the butt-ugly bowling shirts!Regards,Ron
Ron
Yea the bowling shirts are nice!
Watch the credits at the end of the show, every brother, sister, mother............ is part of the production!
Doug
I like the NYW, I won't tune in just to see it, but I won't turn it off either. His projects are well designed, and the choice of materials are usually good. I enjoy watching, yet these things bother me a little.
1) Does he need a tool belt when he rarely uses a hammer and nails? A power nailer is his tool of choice. ( I'm a bit if a purest, I think nails should rarely be used in furniture)
2) I think he uses MAJOR power tools too much for his viewers. (most of these tools are out of reach of the average woodworker)
3) I think he should lead by example when it comes to hearing protection. Though he does a good job with eye protection.
I think of Norm more like a good finish carpenter, than a woodworker. And there's nothing wrong with being a good finish carpenter.
Most of the sponsors of the show are tool makers, so of course he is going to have to use lots of their tools. It is the nature of the business end of producing a show. That doesn't mean that many of the tasks can't be done with smaller/cheaper/other tools.
GRW
look at the good Norm has done, made a whole lot of us amatures interested in working with wood. That means tool prices are coming down while quality is going up. Don't believe me?
Look at the tools available before Norm and then look at what you can buy now!
Planers for example.. They were big heavy terribly expensive machines a while back not the portable bench tops that you see nowadays. If Norm shows us a machine that is too expensive but it creates a demand then maybe a manufactorer will figure out a way to make it affordable.;
I don't need some elite hand tool geek to show me the impossible, rather I'd just like to make some sawdust and enjoy myself with what limited skills I've learned. In the end Norm makes wood working accessable and does so in a way I like..
Edited 2/15/2005 12:00 pm ET by frenchy
Frenchy,
As I said before, I'll watch Norm if I see it's on. (though I won't put in my daily schedule) I think some gains have been made as a result of his show. I just feel that the show could be improved by using more tools that are within the reach of what I see as the average viewer. Sesame Street doesn't teach 3 yr old kids to count with scientific calculators. Why should Norm teach with tools which are out of reach for so many of us.
I don't mean this as a slam to Norm, I have no problem with him. This is just an idea of what I see as an improvement for NYW.
other the the big sander what tools are so out of reach? I'll bet most of us have most of the tools that he has.
I learned a lot about woodworking from Norm. In some ways I've progressed past what he demonstrates on his show, but for many years I'd learn from every episode. David Marks has a more advanced artistic style, but his dialog is overly scripted and stiltedly delivered. Norm is so plain and clear. I learn a lot from them both.
Norm got me started in the magazine, too. I bought my very first copy of Fine Woodworking because I saw Norm on the cover in the store, liked the magazine and have been a subscriber ever since.
I attended a class by David Marks and was enlightened by what determines what goes into the show and what gets built. It seems producers have their own idea of what we want to see, what may be helpful to us and what skills we may actually be able to perform. I really appreciate the detail that Norm delivers. I'm sure he would want to do more but would hand cutting dovetails bring advertisers in that want to sell more handtools? Using powertools sells powertools.
Norm for President? How about it?
BTW, if he was British, I'd propose him for Prime Minister. At least the words match his mouth when it moves. . .!
PeterW
I hope not as I want to use my router for the amount of work I have.
I think Norm does a decent job for what the show is intended to achieve. He is not
geared toward the professionals but from time to time he may show then a new idea or two or a different approched to a situation.
As has been said before me, he tries different approaches to do the same type
of situations on different shows. Although I don’t agree that his show needs to
promote a panel sander, the big pockets that keep him fed are most likely requiring
him to do so.
Even though I am not a fan to face nailing furniture, many are so I will not degrade
him for my differences in beliefs. There are a lot of antiques with nails showing on the faces.
The only real criticism that I have for Norm is the way he uses a random orbital sander.
Norm seems to try to race the sander, he moves the sander around like he was hand sanding or polisihing.
I like David Marks shows more so because of the unique projects and the because of the type of projects and techniques he uses. He seems to promote creativity more so than others.
Garry
WoodWorks by Garry
Everyone mentions David Marks, but unfortunately the DIY channel is not included in my cable package. So I have never seen his offering.Given Norm's popularity, I'm surpised some entreprenial cabinet maker has not organized a show for one of the other cable channels. I wonder what Pamela Anderson knows about woodworking? Come to think of it, didn't she do a stint on Tool Time, or whatever that show was called? Wouldn't that be a sufficient credential for TV?Cstan may be a bit crotchedty, but I am told (by him) that he's a good teacher. Maybe he ought to put in a call to PA, line her up as a shop assistant. Heck, I'd even let her be the exec producer. Far as I know, she isn't doing much these days, except appearances in the tabloids. She'd probably welcome the work.
http://www.dishnetwork.com
http://www.directv.com
If PA was on the show I think the show should be about building doors,since they'd already have the knockers and some nice ash.
I don't get DIY either but they had David Marks on hgtv for a season a year or more ago to try to get more intrest in joining DIY channel.WoodWorks by Garry
Nikkiwood,
"Everyone mentions David Marks, but unfortunately the DIY channel is not included in my cable package. So I have never seen his offering."
"WoodWorks is also shown on HGTV, which most cable networks carry in their basic package. If you go to hgtv.com, I bet you can get the schedule for your area by popping in your zip code or address.
Cheers,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
mvac,I just did look up HGTV's site, but there's no mention of "Woodworks" that I could find. Searching for "David Marks", I found one episode of "Modern Masters" which featured him.I don't get the DIY channel on my cable package either. I've also heard a lot about Marks, but never seen him in action.Tom
Uh-oh. Sorry for the erroneous information. Someone else said earlier in the thread that WoodWorks had been on HGTV for about a year, but to stimulate interest in DIY...Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
It has always amazed me the polarization Norm brings to this group. It seems there are the I love Norms and the I hate Norms. I have enjoyed his show and try not to miss it. Yea he copies old furniture so what. He explains projects in a way that makes it enjoyable. And part of the fun is seeing tools that he uses. In the end, does it really matter how he does it?
I like watching David Marks as well. I try not to miss his show either. I don't see why one has to be put up beside the other.
Either one has a dream job we would all love to have.
I started woodworking thanks to watching Norm for years....thinking "I could make that.... if only I had a ..." One fatefull b/day SWMBO bought me a router and suggested i got offa my backside and DO something...
From the get go, I've had some issues with Norm's techniques or finishes; it's only natural.. the methods anyone uses are generally the methods they prefer to use... that doesn't make them mandatory..
I learned quickly that the only thing that counted was the joint, not how it was made. That same process has kept me right ever since.. Power tools, hand tools... it don't matter... What does matter is that it's a good tight joint and that you'd some pleasure making it.. right...???Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,That's a good, sensible approach -- well articulated.
I agree. When I used to watch Norm years ago with my Dad...we used to laugh about his ridiculously well appointed shop. I used to think a biscuit jointer was an exotic tool. Now my brothers...and Dad call me "Norm" when they are in my basement shop; which really isn't that well appointed by most of your standards (much less mine). But it is all relative. And every tool I aquire seems to add four more tools to my wish list. I agree that Norm's shop with few exceptions isn't all that much overdone...it's the shop most novices are building toward. At least tools aren't like computer equipment (obsolete before you get them home).
Mike, "Good tight joimt?" " The only thing that counted, was a good tight joint ?"
" What matter's, is that it's a good tight joint?"
"Pleasure "Making it?" Are we talkin' MARYJANE? Speaking of joints, When asked about my formal education,
I usually answer; " Everything useful I've ever learned in life, was at my mother's knee....
(And other 'low joints'.)Take my advice and "Stay outta those joints."
Ed
LOL... I shoulda known someone was bound to pick up on that...
From the look o them, I reckon my joints are best described as Labrador... nuff said.??Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I really think this hand-tool jihad has gone too far. I use hand tools and power tools. I've got a wife, two young kids, a day job and I like to play a little golf. Power tools mean I can make more and better stuff faster. I've hand cut dove tails and used a jig. What I use depends on how much time I have and what I'm doing. Am I making a bed or a jewlry box? Do I have two weeks or six months?
I like all the various shows Norm's been in since the original This Old House. For an ametuer woodworker/carpenter they are among the best shows of the genre. At least you can lean something by watching them unlike some of the other newer shows.
But here's why I really love Norm:
The other day my 5-year-old daughter wondered into then den. She had been watching Pokemon or some other kid's cartoon in the other room. She climbed into Daddy's Big Chair with me. I'd been there a while so I asked her if she wanted to watch a kid's show. She said: "No. I like Norm."
...and you thought she ment Norm Abrams....not Norm from 'Cheers'....??...lol
You couldn't be more right !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess PT Barnum said it best, "you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time. I've been watching Norm for years and I have always learned something new that he tries to pass along in a friendly non condesending manner, unlike the overbearing, patronizing Sears guy. So lets lighten up and absorb what nuggets we can from each of the various presenters as they all have their place and specialities. I learn from each of them and value the advances we have made in technology to reduce the labor but appreciate the craftsmanship of the early woodworkers and know they would be the first to embrace the power tools we have developed. Hand tools will never be replaced and neither will personal pride in seeing a fine finshed piece built by your own two hands. Keep up the good work Norm.
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