Replies

1. 
   ClarkCustoms | Jul 08, 2007 10:59pm | #1

   TC  57,

    I built my '16x24' shop almost ten years ago. When I built the shop I used "2x6" for the side walls just so I could put more insulation in them then I  used "2x8" sixteen inches on center for the rafters so I could have a cathedral ceiling I filled the ceiling with insulation also,being careful to leave space between the insulation and the roof sheeting for air movement. My shop has '10 sidewalls, I put a small loft in one end of the shop for cold storage. You can't belive how much material that can be put/stored in such a limited area.

    I finished the inside using drywall, I sure wish now that I'd `used an all wood product ,I'm limited to either finding studs or coming up with alternative ways of hanging stuff on the walls such as cabinets.

    When I first built the shop I used a natural gas small space heater that hangs on the wall and isn't supposed to need fresh air, I figured out in short order I needed to get rid of that thing. For the past few years I've been using a salamander type heater, Yes it's true these can over take a person with fumes if your not careful but I always operate the exhaust fan when operate the heater.

    BUT, HA, HA , Now I'm getting ready to add on another '16x24' off the side of the building, now plans have changed,I bought a hanging natural gas heater that requires a chimney I also have allowed enough room in the plans for the add on to have air conditioning. The air conditioner's big enough to handle the whole shop as is the hanging heater.

    Good Luck in your decision. "NOTE" What ever you do, Get a heater that ducts out of your shop and doubly important "DON'T USE A KEROSINE HEATER" I'm sure a lot of you have used them BUT it's not worth the risk of the fumes s n e a k i n g  up on you,before you know it,it's to late and your taken over by the fumes.

    Again,Good Luck

    Sincerely, 

   Jim at Clark Customs 

    

2. 
   BruceS | Jul 09, 2007 03:26am | #2

   In your neck of the woods I would be seriously thinking about a heat pump.

   Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S. 

    

3. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Jul 09, 2007 04:05am | #3

   TC,I have the same problem in East TN just East of Rogersville. 24x48 basement, two garage doors and a 3-0, with 4 awning windows planned high up along the east wall. 7'10 to the open joists of the farmers ranch above .   It's block in the dirt west and south and full face brick east and north doors wall.

   I have been figuring for over a year and I think Bruce has got it-another heat pump is the answer, perhaps a split package as it is a large open area but doesn't need the duct work and loss of a residential space. I will probably spend one more winter using the Sentry coal stove with wood(cheap here in the hills, 40 to 50 bucks for an 8' pickup bed piled as high as the cab-all hard wood-ash maple and oak). 

   If I find a final answer I will give ya a shout. Paddy

4. 
   TAF | Jul 09, 2007 04:32am | #4

   I just finished a 24x28 ft. shop and used a combination heat pump and A/C unit in one. It looks just like a window A/C unit and is mounted in one window with a fairly central location. Sounds like you have done a good job with insulation and you should not need a large unit. There are multiple sources for these on line with calculators to help size the right unit. Yes you also need to control the temp and humidity year round unless rust doesn't bother you. Heat and cool your building to comfort. Perhaps 60 in the winter and 75-78 in the summer? Good Luck

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   Edited 7/8/2007 9:36 pm ET by TAF

   
   

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   Edited 7/8/2007 9:38 pm ET by TAF

5. 
   zolton | Jul 09, 2007 07:15pm | #5

   Tin,

   I've used a wall-hanging direct vent gas heater in my shop for years. The "direct vent" part is of importance. It gets its combustion air from outdoors, and also vents exhaust gasses outside through a wall vent. The intake and exhaust vent are two pipes, one inside the other. That makes for quick and easy installation, needing only a five inch or so diameter hole through a sidewall.

   The unit can be operated with a thermostat, though mine broke a few years ago and I haven't replaced it. I just twist the two wires together and it fires up. Crude, I know, but it works for me, and I can't afford to heat my shop all the hours when I'm not out there. So this all-on-or-all-off situation works.

   The problem I have is that I nearly doubled the size of my shop a few years ago and now the heater is inadequately sized for the space I have. An upgrade is due..

   The name of my heater is Empire, and they sell quite a few different models. Check them out on the Internet to see what this type of heater is about. With a direct vent unit you don't have to worry about combusting fumes or dust, or breathing the byproducts of combustion. And since the exhaust vents outside you don't run into problems with moisture condensing on tool surfaces (unlike the case with an unvented heater). 

   As to cooling, a window unit will probably do what you need it to. Not too expensive, but the noise might be disturbing.

    Zolton  

    

6. 
   YesMaam27577 | Jul 09, 2007 08:38pm | #6

   My shop, in eastern NC, is 16X24. I heat it with a roll-around oil-filled radiator style heater that plugs into 110V.  On the coldest of nights, it probably needs some help -- but that is maybe three or four nights a year.

   And I have a window air conditioner for the summer.

   Both meet my needs just fine, and the total cost beats the shorts off of the next best alternative as recommended by my HVAC contractor (a hotel-room style thru-the-wall combo unit).

    

    

    

   Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

7. 
   BilljustBill | Jul 09, 2007 11:42pm | #7

   Tin,

   For one of those "window units" that both heat and cool, keep your eyes peeled at Lowes.  They are changing vendors and discounting their old stock.  Their last vendor was Whirlpool, but now they are changing to Fridgaire models

     I picked up a shelf display of a 17,000 btu heatpump for a 16' X 32' shed I'm building.  It sold for $584, but was marked down half price.

     While it's hot outside, you sure should consider insulating every place you can get it laid into.   It was one of the best things I did to my workshop.  Keep your eyes out for a roofing company re-roofing a commerical flat roof.  They will replace the 1-1/2" thick, 4'X8' sheets of foam.  To get it out of their way, most of the time they will just give it to you if you'll ask.  When I stumbled across a re-roofing job at the city's High School, I rented a U-Haul trailer for $35, and I hauled home over 90 sheets...

     If you insulate well, the steady temp inside your workshop will sometimes be 10-20 degrees more comfortable than the outside temps.  I used an old Propane Central unit for my heating and cooling.  I just run it when I'm in there.  You might consider a setback thermostat or just a heavy duty timer to turn your heating/cooling off and on.  On a cold and icy day, having one of those when you know you'll be in the workshop, can warm your shop before you get out there.  It's almost like walking from the kitchen into the den, and it'll sure spoil you!!

     Good luck with your new workshop,

     Bill

8. 
   frenchy | Jul 11, 2007 06:02am | #8

   tincup57

    Why not look at altertnative building materials?

     Build out of SIP's or ICF's  dramatically lower energy costs, great stability of temps and  faster easier build times..

     properly reseached your building costs should be about the same..

     Now as to heating and cooling a shop that size..

     In floor radiant heat is the least costly most efficent way to heat a place that size.. you could install the pex tubing yourself prior to the floor pour.  and use a simple water heater to provide a nice stable comfortable temp..

    Air conditioning could be achieved with a window A/C unit installed in a wall.  Install it as high as possible since cold air settles..

     Again with stick building (2x4's or 2x6's )  such a unit would not be adequite.  With SIP's or ICF's it will do the job nicely.. while being low cost to purchase and to run (select efficent ones) 

1. 
   tinkerer2 | Jul 12, 2007 05:41am | #10

   I have in-floor radiant heat in my new shop.  I used it just one month - last January.  One disadvantage could be if you are not using the heat everyday as it takes about a day to heat up.  I can see if you worked every other day that your efficiency would be down somewhat.  I heat with an outside wood boiler. It is a very nice heat as I can be comfortable with about ten degrees less temperature that the house.

   Edited 7/11/2007 10:43 pm ET by tinkerer2

1. 
   frenchy | Jul 12, 2007 06:45am | #11

   tinkerer2

     Yes a shop that is occasionally used does become problematic to heat. energy costs soar if the shop is kept warm all the time but often you are using ice cold tools or wood that hasn't stabelized because it costs too much to keep it at a comfortable  temp.   finishing too can be an issue.  While shellac (sigh) isn't as much affected by temps as other finishes are. it still works best at a warmer temps.

     In any case a cold shop floor can cause serious issues. Basically the heart warms up the blood and pumps it around the body.. the part of the body that is furthest away from the heart is your feet. and so by the time they recieve blood it's lost a great deal of it's natural warmth..  walking on a cold floor can cause back aches, stiffness, sore feet, and legs..

    So in floor radiant heat is really  an ideal.. blast in a lot of BTU's and while your face and hands are warm the rest of you isn't and that's not good for your health..

     A shop that gets used on occasion really needs to be super insulated.. enough so that the heat remains a long time and doesn't need to be constantly reheated using up energy (even if it's scrap wood) 

     

9. 
   Cincinnati | Jul 11, 2007 02:51pm | #9

   Have you considered incorporating a radiant floor heating system? If your feet are warm, your whole body stays warm. I am already planning this for my next workshop,and am considering adding it to my 12x20 workshop.

   Greg
   •••••••
   Exo 35:30-35

   
   

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   Edited 7/11/2007 7:52 am by Cincinnati

10. 
    woodwish | Jul 13, 2007 06:47pm | #12

    Living along the sunny humid Gulf Coast in the Florida Panhandle you would think cooling is a bigger problem than heat but we get enough cool weather that we need both.  My shop is 16' x 32', 10' ceilings, 2x6 walls with FG batts and same in ceiling, sheetrock walls (double layers on the neighbors side to help insulate noise), 1/2 glass doors on west end, two 2x3' windows on south side, etc.  Around here we have tons of hotels and condos that use those below window, through the wall, heat/AC units so the local AC suppliers all have them in stock.  I bought a rather small one and it keeps up just fine.  Mounted it high on a wall, controls are maybe 7' up but reachable from the ground.   I also run an air cleaner any time I am working plus a good dust collector.  I also built a frame to put some large hepa filters in front of the minimal filters built-in to the unit to keep from clogging the coils with fine sawdust.

    I run it year round although when I am not out there I do back off the thermostat a bit.  Not only does it help keeping things stable but also keeps the humidity down so my tools are not constantly rusting.  You may need more heat than this puts out where you live but maybe not.  I think I paid about $800 brand new in the box, installed quickly in a hole I had preplanned when I built the shop.  All these things fit a standard opening so they can quickly exchange them.  At least it works well for my situation.   I honestly do not understand how people use a shop that is not heated and cooled, but I know a lot of folks do.

11. 
    DaveRicheson | Jul 13, 2007 07:42pm | #13

    I am north of you, in KY, and have a 30x42' shop. I haven't added a/c yet but am set up for it with a split system high efficiency propane furnace. My minimum set point is 40 degrees so that is where the stat stays when I turn the system on for extended cold snaps. I have a 10' ceiling, 6 windows, one walk through door, and an insulated 9x8' overhead door, drywall finish over 2x6 framing. I used one center run of duct from the mechanical romm down the center of the shop. My total cost for furnace and duct was under $1500. Adding the condenser unit and lineset for a/c will cost another $600. My operating cost for heat only the last two years has been a little over $100 each year, depending on propane cost durring the summer when it at its' lowest.

    A building your size, if [properly insulated and air sealed could be heated with a 60,000 BTU high eff. furnace and a 1 ton split a/c system. With a single duct run down the long axis of the building, you could install the whole system yourself for under $1500. Alternately you could have the system installed professionally for $2400 to $2800.

    One caution on any forced air system. You need to build a mechanical closet that is well sealed from the rest of the shop. Woodworking is dusty and dust is a hostile element for HVAC equipment to survive in.

     

    Dave

1. 
   tincup57 | Jul 14, 2007 01:25am | #14

   Thanks for all of the replies to my question regarding heating/cooling the shop. After much consideration, I chose a 18,000 btu cooling and 11,000 btu heating unit from LG. Has a remote control and a 12 hour timer. We'll see, and I will report back in once it is in and running. I thought I would share the progress to date on the building. Thanks again, Rick (TinCup)

   
1. 
   frenchy | Jul 14, 2007 01:57am | #16

   tincup,

    please read my response to Dave Richardson.

    Basically you  will most likely condemn yourself to much higher energy costs than you need to pay if you selected alternative construction techniques such as SIP's or ICF's 

    My actual experiance with those techniques cut my heating bills into about 1/5 th my previous using the same furnace and having twice the space..

     Energy costs are likely to continue to increase in the furture andcutting those costs is something that serious attention should be paid attention to at the design stage.

1. 
   tincup57 | Jul 14, 2007 02:13am | #17

   Thanks Frenchy, I read the reply and to be honost, I have no idea what a SIP or ICF is, I thought I was doing good just getting outof my garage and in to an insulated shop. Ifg I were making my living at this furniture building stuff, then I would probably had taken a different path (read more $$$) than building a hobby shop that will look nice and function as planned. So tell me please, what is a SIP or ICF?

   Thanks again, TC

1. 
   frenchy | Jul 14, 2007 02:47am | #18

   tincup, I'm sorry ,

    It's presumptious of me to assume that you understood those terms.

     A SIP is a Structural insulated panel.. they've been used since WW2 as "freezer panels"  They became popular in the 70's with the advent of Timberframing and now are used as stand alone construction.

    Basically they are a block of foam sandwiched by sheets of OSB or plywood..

    They are about 200% stronger than traditional stick framing (building with 2x4's or 2x6's )  plus all the energy effiency I've mentioned..

      An ICF is an insulated concrete form.. basically foam that surrounds concrete..

     They have a 2 hour fire rating (very desirable in a wood working shop)   capable of withstanding 200 MPH winds and extremely energy efficent..  If you can put together leggos then you can assemble ICF's,  I mean it's actually fun!

    Cost wise they should be the same cost as traditonal stick building is, they're not! Simply because the number of builders who do them is small compared to the number of stick builders out there..  Around here there's a 2 to 5% premium placed on them.. Competition should decrease thant untill they are anywhere from 15 to 30% cheaper to build with than stick building..

    SIP building and ICF building should be about 30% faster than stick building, again it's not because so few builders use them that no real experiance is widely available..

    Plus they have a unique ability to design as you build.. real design.. walk along the floor and decide that with windows should go there and there and with both techniques that's all that's involved.. You put the windows in!  With stick building issues such as load paths and proper sized headers come into questions..  

   Both techniques are extemely do-it-yourself friendly.  I went on a trip and wrenched my back shortly after starting construction. when I got home I spent a month bed bound and my sister-in-law with absolutely zero experiance doing construction work finished them for me..  (I'm lying, she once painted her bedroom and added a wallpaper border in the kitchen) I wa on heavy pain meds and slurred enough information to her in 20 minutes so she could go ahead and finish.. Basically all I had done is about one and a half rows of them she took about 4 hours to finish the rest.. Kind of slow but what can you expect for a girl with no experiance..

     SIP construction amounted to put them in place, tip them up, and nail the edges. 

      

2. 
   tincup57 | Jul 14, 2007 04:18am | #19

   Thanks for the explaination frenchy. As you can see by the photos I attached to my previous message, it's too late to turn back now ;)  Take care of that back  TC

2. 
   frenchy | Jul 14, 2007 01:45am | #15

   Dave,

    If that same shop had been built using either SIP's or ICF's the size of the heating unit most likely could have been reduced  a great deal.  more likely given your usage around 20,000 btu for the furnace side..

    Few people experiance the real benefits of modern high efficency constructions techniques such as SIP's or ICF's  less than 2% of all construction uses those techniques and yet they offer astonishing long term energy reductions..

    To give you an actual example.  My home which is yet to be finished and properly sealed decreased heating costs during the months of January and December from over $500 per month to $127 per month. I'm using the same furnace with a home that is twice as large with more than double the windows.

    Once fully finished, properly sealed ,and with a new infloor radiant system in place I expect a further decrease down to well under $100 per month during those months. 

     How many can claim that dramatic of a reduction in heating bills while more than doubling their space?