Helical carbide insert cutterheads
AlanTurner
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I just received the new Woodworker’s Supply cat. and among their new tools are 15″, 8″ and 6″ helical, carbide insert, cutterheads for jointers and planers. I have thought that one of these guys for my old 12″ jointer would be heaven, but mine is so old – 1922 or so – that there is no way that a “standard” cutterhead would work. Does anyone have any experience with these cutterheads? They are quite expensive; are they worth it? Where can one get one of these for a particular, non-standard machine?
Replies
I rebuild machines and I don't have enough information from you to give a better answer. Those heads are readily available for moulders. The 12" insert cuttter head runs about $1,600 alone, never mind the inserts. You would then have to mount it on a seperate shaft. A machinist would be necessary so $2,000 is easily a price. Another option would be to buy it as a replacement part from Grizzly or Woodtek and retrofit it in your machine. Since your machine is so old I'm guessing it has babbitt journals which are usually wider so the retro replacement won't work. High speed steel will still give a sharper edge than carbide initially. We use the insert head for roughing and still use HSS for the finish heads. The insert heads are readily available at industrial tooling dealers but you are better off selling your machine and buying the Woodtek than modifying your machine in my opinion.
http://www.cggschmidt.com/
http://www.royceayr.com/P_Wood_IT.shtml
http://www.woodtechtooling.com
Edited 3/2/2003 3:06:15 PM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
So, if I understand, you think that the helical heads do not give the finished surface that steel does. One of your links showed a tersa head. I saw one of these at a wood show, on a Minimax, I think. Any idea of the aftermarket price on this? Prohibitive I am sure. I just hate the hours of tinkering that setting jointer knives correctly seems to consume. You think you've got it, then more fiddling. My jointer has pillowblocks, and bearings, which live in a container filled with oil.
I can say for sure the helical heads that I have do not give as good a finish. I can't say anything about the Woodtek and Grizzly ones. All the shops I know prefer HSS on their planers and jointers and only want carbide for teak and epoxy glue ups
I think you need to approach the problem from a different perspective based on what you now say. I can leisurely set the knives in a 16" four knife head in about an hour because I have done it enough and get it within .0005". Funny thing about setting the knives is as soon as you start cutting the edge begins to change. Typically on our planers I found the cutting edge is down about .005" to .010" when we change dull knives. What that means is if you get it within a few thousandth when setting they will be of equal height on their own soon. Sure having everything perfect is nice but it really only comes into play on high speed moulders that do 5,000 to 10,000 foot runs and have jointed heads. A jointed head is a special shaped honing stone that is kissed to the running cutterhead to extend the time between sharpenings.
Have you considered the Esta-knife system. The benefits of the terminus sytem but without the expense. You fit preset knife holders in your existing head. Or figure out how to master knife changes. Actually I have a bunch of guys who call me to change their knives but I did machine tune-ups and rebuilding for a living. What kind of jointer and head do you have and what do you use to change the knives. There's only a few types of gauges that are worth having to do this.
Here are pix of the Jointer. I did not do or specify the paint job. Pink would not have been mcuh worse. The name plate says American Woodworking Machinery, Rochester NY, which puts it before 1925, when it merged with Yates, and became Yates American. Is suspect that the present cutterhead, etc., were put on later. Its tables are dead-on co-planar, and it is a great tool.
What is the Esta Knife System?
I use a straight edge off of the outfeed table to set the knives. A Starrett. There are elevating, allen head screws below each of the 3 knives, but as I tighten the gib screws, I get a bit of gib creep, which I have heard is not unusual. Maybe I am being too picky. I have tried jointing the knives in place, but this is a bit scary. And I know that you are not supposed to take off very mcuh at all in this process. After you install your knives, do you joint them?
Your guidance is much appreciated.
http://www.estausa.com/
It makes no real difference whether you use a Starrett or a piece of wood with that method. It works but takes a lot of practice. A $15 indicator and a special $5 tip and a block of wood will yield better and faster results than anyway you have ever seen or tried. No point in jointing. I thought I explained that the minute you start using the knives, the tip is wearing down. Only necessary on $150,000 machines and long 10,000 foot runs. If you get it within a few thousandths all the knives will be equal height in a short time anyway. I'll have to get a picture of the set up. I'd take your machine over a new Woodtek with carbide insert knives. Don't get me wrong ...old iron can be good but some old stuff should be tossed.
Edited 3/3/2003 10:02:04 AM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
Thanks for the tip on the Esta. I have a call into them. Seems pretty reasonable, but I did not see a price on the web for their upgrade knives, even assuming that I would need them.
I agree with you on one thing; I wouldn't trade mine for a new Twainese jointer. Mine must weigh in at over 1500 lbs. Getting it to the basement was a trick, and now that it is there, I can't move it, not even an inch. We had to disassembel the whole thing, and when it went back together, no shims were needed.
I would still go with a good indicator gauge over the Esta any day.
Why is that? Is the steel not good in the Esta replacement knives?
If I was a business and wanted to limit down time due to other employees level of skill at changing knives I'd go Esta with an older machine. First time setting up is the worst. On the other hand if you know the tricks and have the right tools it's only a litle bit longer plus I have more options on knife steel versus the two types from Esta. Depends if you are a hobby woodworker, versus a one man shop or a factory. You just need to practice more with the right gauge. That's only a 12" machine. If you hate setting knives it might be worth the cost to you.
Is there any thinking to the effect that the knives from Esta are not as sharp, as good a steel, or whatever, that makes them a poor choice? Buying the replacement knives is actually cheaper than sending mine out for sharpening.
Rick,
I would much appreciate a picture and description of setting the knives using a caliper micrometer or plunge micrometer, both of which I have. Thanks.
S4s, I just looked at the woodworkers supply knives and they are different than the ones I have seen used. The woodworkers cuttergheads spiral halfway along the length of the head, then reverse direction and spiral the other way, waving an elongated V shape. The ones I have seen have a full spiral from end to end. They also have more teeth, I think. The Woodworkers 15" head has 96 teeth, wheras whatever brand I saw had close to 200 for the 20".
This is the gauge that works the best. As far as I now it's not available anymore but the key is the 1/2" convex button tip. On jointers you can work off the outfeed table or straddle the head with the channel base which is how one does planer heads. A comparable indicator can be bought from Enco for about $16 and the convex button tip is about $5. a base could be made for jointers using a block of wood or something similar from channel and some angle iron could be fabricated with limited metal skills.
So do understand how the gauge works? No way that jointer of your goes back to 1922 with ball bearings and modern style cutter head. More like 40's or 50's.
I do, and thanks much. I am thinking I will go with the Esta system. Replacement blades are about the same price as my sharpening service, shipping considered.
As to the age, I know that American Woodworking Machinery of Rochester, NY., merged with Yates in 1925, and the merged cos. became Yates American. The original brass nameplate is on the jointer. But I agree that the bearings and holders for them are post 1922, as is the cutterhead. That's how I dated it. Do you have information to the contrary, as I would love to learn more. The merger date I did not independently research, but found on oldmachines.com or some such site, which seemed serious about older tools. BTY, the guard is a Surety, which I am told is also an aftermarket item.
Also, I talked with the co. in NH about their carbide inset cutterheads. For me, the price would have been a fortune, but their technology is better than the Twainese. Each insert is convex, they say, and this is what makes the difference, and the expense. I have never seen one up close, so this is all second hand to me. Still, a neat idea, and were I wealthy I might spring for one, but then I'd probably go for a 16" Oliver to put it on. Saw one go on ebay about the time I got mine, for 1800, in Fllint Mich., and if I knew then what I think I know now, I would have bought it based on just the pix and had them throw it on a truck. I am not sure that you can hurt one of these old beasts except by dropping it off of a forklift, which is required to lift one in one piece.
Thanks for the help.
Edited 3/14/2003 11:43:17 AM ET by s4s
Thanks for posting the pictures. I don't have anything to add regarding helical cutters or inserts, but I do have a little machine tool trivia to share. From the longitudinal tool marks, it appears that the infeed table was finished on a metalworking planer, which is entirely different from a woodworking planer. Here's a picture.
http://www.zhongyang-engrg.com/catalog/sk2030-2.htm
Work is clamped to the bed, which moves back and forth under the tool head or heads. The tools are fed across the work a fixed distance on each stroke and fed down after each pass. The tool heads have a hinge arrangement so they can swing up slightly on the return stroke and not drag the cutting tool back across the workpiece.
Thanks for the info. Since I think the planer is from pre-1925, would this still have been the case?
That would have been mainstream technology in 1925. Sometime between then and now, Blanchard grinding took over. That's the kind that leaves the sweeping curved tool marks, like the picture at the link below. I don't know the date for sure, but I'd guess there hasn't been a production planer on the market in the US since 1950.
http://www.dixmetals.com/images/blanchard1.jpg
I still see a good mx of Precision grinding (linear marks- jointers, etc large and small), Blanchard grind (circular marks-tablesaws) and Planed- (linear grooves, a lot of higher end new European machinery, jointers saws, etc.)
I'm internet challenged. How do I make the picture fit in the window I see on the monitor?
Please-----
Mack
I'm sorry about the size. I too am a bit challenged. I learned to do it when I take it from the camera to the hard drive, and if I'm going to post that's how I do it. But, the jointer pix was before Forest Girl, the princess of Knots, gave me guidance. And now that it is on the hard drive, I'm not quite sure how to resize it.
Try right clicking on the image file and opening the link in a new window. If that doesn't help, download the image to some program on your computer to resize it to fit on your monitor. People should do a test to see if the image is too big. Ideally it should fit in the frame without having to do any scrolling.
A friend of mine just got one for his 22" Powermatic planer. I will be getting one for my 8" jointer I was so impressed. I watched him send a piece of 10" teak through his machine CROSSGRAIN with zero tearout. And I was able to carry on a conversation with him while he did it, the machine was so quiet.
I went to the place that sells them around here and got a quote of $800 installed to retrofit one to my 8" jointer. The salesman explaind that the price has more to do with cutter diameter tand number of spirals on the head than total length. For example, the head for the 22" Powermatic is $3500, while the smaller diameter head for my Powermatic 20" is only $1500.
Rick, do you have any advice as to who the best manufacturer is and where to get the best deal? I don't know what my local dealer is selling, and I wounder if it is the same as the woodworkers brand or whatever brand Grizzly is shipping with their machines.
CL...What's the name and phone of the place you are referring to. I've got over three feet of catalogs of industrial cutters but this seems to be a new generation of cutter head. I'm guessing these are imports from China. I'm still always learning and I guess I need to find out more.
The local vendor is called Spooner Specialties. It's located in Montpelier, VT. Phone 802-229-4800. I have no idea who the cutterhead manufacturer is, but they look exactly like the ones pictured on the Grizzly ultimate series machines. They have several spirals that are machined to take carbide inserts about 3/4" square. The inserts have four cutting edges, so that when one is nicked, you loosen the chipped inserts and rotate them 90 deg for a fresh edge. Or rotate them all for an entirely new set of cutting edges. I have dug around on the web a little trying to find other suppliers, and have found several manufacturers whose heads all look about the same, but most were foreign language sites. I would love to know if one brand is better than the next, and what the cheapest route is for converting existing machines. I would not mind doing some machining, or custom work to retrofit the head.
http://www.byrdtool.com/
This is the company that Spooner Specialties sells for helical retrofits. 12" jointer head is about $950 with 90 inserts at $4 each according to the saleman at Spooner. Of course there are 4 edges. I don't think it's worth converting unless I was a commercial shop or doing a lot of teak. HSS is still initailly sharper than carbide and the knife gauge I use makes it simple to change knives.
Edited 3/10/2003 3:35:17 PM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
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