Replies

1. 
   WayneL5 | Feb 08, 2005 03:15am | #1

   I've always had good results with Helmsman, and I'd think it a good choice for a bar top.

   Two possibilities come to mind.  One is that the oak should be filled so you don't loose the finish into the grain.  Second is that such marks can be caused by contamination on the surface, especially silicones.  Perhaps one of these explains what you are seeing.

1. 
   Miko | Feb 08, 2005 03:49am | #2

   Hey WAYNEL5,  On the table tops I stripped the old varnish,washed, sanded, and wiped clean with mineral spirits.  Am I missing something? Thanks for your reply.

1. 
   DANL | Feb 08, 2005 04:30am | #4

   Lots of furniture polish contains silicone, so if your table was polished in the past, it might have had silicone, and silicone tends to just smear around--very difficult to remove, so even stripping, sanding and washing may not have gotten rid of it.

   I had trouble once with varnish crawling into ridges and finally figured out it was because I hadn't let the stain dry fully. Don't know if your bartop was recently stained or not.

1. 
   Miko | Feb 08, 2005 05:46am | #5

   Danno- no stain on the tables but I have experienced the "ridges" on a Entry door that didn't dry properly because the storm door was closed.  No on the polish theory because I stripped, washed, and sanded each table.  Posibly ionizer or tar in the air?  Don't know.  Will let all know how tonights varnish turns out.  Thanks.

2. 
   DANL | Feb 08, 2005 04:25am | #3

   I think what you are getting are called "fisheyes" from contamination--probably, like another poster said, from silicone or possibly stearates in the sand paper (if you sanded). You can use fisheye reducer (I think that's what it's called) to prevent these craters.

3. 
   Rich14 | Feb 08, 2005 08:10am | #6

   Miko,

   It's hard to tell from your description, but as in an above suggestion, it sounds as if you have unfilled wood grain. It doesn't sound like you're experiencing fisheye. Was the grain filled under the previous finish? If not, you'll need to apply a paste wood filler.

   Oak is a very open-grained wood. A thin finish such as a rubbed on oil/varnish finish can look very good on oak without grain filler, but a thick-film finish such as varnish generally looks bad. It partially flows and dips into the pores and leaves a pock-marked surface.

   Spar varnish never really cures to a hard surface and is not a good choice for a bar top. There are other varnishes specially made for this. Behlens Rock Hard is excellent.

   Rich

   Don't ever learn anything new. Rather than give you satisfaction that you know more than you did, it will only confirm you know less than you thought by opening horizons to things of which you had never dreamt and which you now must explore.

4. 
   EdHarrow | Feb 08, 2005 08:28am | #7

   Miko, I've used it for a number of projects where I wanted something a bit tougher than real varnish, and as it happens, on oak as well.  Generally good luck, but there was one particular piece that had a real fish-eye problem.  New wood, never waxed, etc, etc, etc.  Eventually the only thing I could attribute the problem to was the sandpaper, treated with stearates to lessen clogging. 

1. 
   Rich14 | Feb 08, 2005 10:18am | #8

   Ed,You were able to correct the problem by eliminating the stearated sandpaper?Rich

1. 
   EdHarrow | Feb 08, 2005 05:06pm | #10

   Rich, I won't go so far as to say corrected; when there are two pieces, identical wood, prepared the identical way (but for sandpaper), finished using the identical poly, applied with the identical brushes, but sanded with different paper...

5. 
   hammer1 | Feb 08, 2005 03:37pm | #9

   I have to agree with Danno, you can't sand and wash away silicone, I've tried. Open grain wood like oak is the worst. Adding fisheye reducer to the top coat product is the only way to avoid craters caused by the contaminant. I can't say that Helmsman's is my favorite poly but I'm not a big fan of any hardware store poly's. They all produce the same predictable plastic results.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

6. 
   HowardAcheson | Feb 08, 2005 07:51pm | #11

   Let me focus on something else. Why are you using a spar varnish. Spar varnishes are formulated to be soft and flexible so they can maintain adhesion when wooden masts (spars) on sail boats bend. The softness means that it does not offer good abrasion resistance and is easily marred.

   You would be better off using a good interior rated polyurethane varnish. It will have more solids and provide a more durable finish.

   Howie.........
1. 
   Miko | Feb 09, 2005 03:02am | #12

   Well I ran out of time and had to put the varnish on before reading all the responses.  I think that the open grain theory is correct.  The bartop was worn and left exposed to water and alcahol in some areas.  Those spots seamed to soak up the varnish leaving an uneven finish.  Maybe I should have used a wood grain filler before staining.  Or maybe a sanding sealer after staining.  Either way the damage is done.  I definitaly should have started this discussion sooner.  On the table tops the dimples seam to be above the darker grain in the oak.  I have finished many a oak floor in my day and have never experienced this.  The only difference is I never used stripper to remove the old finish on the floors.  Maybe some of the stripper remained in the open grain.  Anyway now I have to level an uneven finish.  Several coats of varnish while sanding in between each?

1. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 09, 2005 03:33am | #13

   MIKO, the pinholes are probably caused by the opened grained nature of the wood-- air spaces, blow-back, et al without getting into too much technical detail.

   A fairly thick coat of film forming finish does tend to do this in open pored woods like red oak whether they be fast drying like pre-cat or shellac, or even fairly slow drying as in oil based varnishes.

   One solution to alleviate the likelihood of this happening is to apply one or two thinned out coats as a grain and pore sealer. You can thin out oil based varnish by 50 or 60% white (mineral) spirits and even apply it fairly poorly just to seal the wood. It's so thin the solvent dries quite fast and the bits of solids bind with the wood, penetrate the pores, and seal it.

   After these first one or two coats you should be able to proceed with full strength coats, or stuff that is slightly thinned by about 10- 15%.

   Like Howie though, why the hell are you using soft long oil exterior varnish on an interior bar top which requires toughness and abrasion resistance, a function performed very well by polyurethane and good quality interior alkyd varnishes? Slainte.RJFurniture

1. 
   Miko | Feb 09, 2005 03:48am | #14

   This bartop was in bad shape and needed some stain for improved appearance.  Oil based stain requires a long time to "cure" before applying a water based poly. as recommended by one guy at Woodcraft.  I have tried water based stain on pine and it was awful.  That and I am not an experienced wood refinisher.

2. 
   Rich14 | Feb 09, 2005 03:51am | #15

   MIKO,

   Sand that already-pitted, ugly, spar varnish off down to bare wood while it's still relatively easy to remove. Properly fill the wood with dark-tinted paste filler, stain it, and apply some decent alkyd varnish.

   Edit: Then, among your credits will be, "Experienced wood finisher!"

   Rich

   Edited 2/8/2005 7:53 pm ET by Rich14

1. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 09, 2005 04:20am | #16

   I disagree with the need to fill the pores with a grain filler Rich. That method is fine if you want a flat surface, but if you wish to retain the open pored or opened grained look then filling the grain is the wrong approach.

   After all, the charm of open grained woods is very often the open grain which can be highlighted with lodged pigments from the staining process if desired.

   There again, a semi or fully filled effect may be desired, and the pores can be filled with a blending or contrasting colour, and for a contrast, green, red, gold, blue, etc., water based powder paint over ferrous sulphate used on a white oak like English oak is quite dramatic. Slainte.RJFurniture

2. 
   Rich14 | Feb 09, 2005 05:58am | #17

   Sgian,

   Completely agree.

   But then, as I advised above for an "open-pore" look, varnish simply isn't the top coat to use. I can mimic an "open-pore oiled look" with lacquer sprayed in very thin coats and properly rubbed out, but it takes quite a bit of experience to do that. The result is light years tougher than oil/varnish. I don't think it can be done at all with varnish.

   Since this is a bar top, I'm thinking he wants an industrial-strength finish. That means a thick film that smoothly covers the wood. While that's possible to do by using thinned varnish for intitial coats as a pore filler, that's an exercise in frustration (and it never really looks good - the varnish never really gets into the pores in a satisfactory way) compared to using silex to do the job.

   Rich

3. 
   Miko | Feb 12, 2005 10:30am | #18

   Well I have applied my second coat of spar varnish and it did fill in the pores and level out the finish better.  It looks like the third and final coat might make it look nice.  I definately agree that spar varnish is too soft.  I will not use it on the upstairs bar.  I've read an article in Wood Magazine (Nov. 2003 Issue 152) on "How to fill open-grain wood".  They recomend using an oil/varnish mix or make your own (equal parts mineral spirits, varnish, boiled linseed oil).  If you want stain you can add it to the mix.  Then sand the wood through 180 grit and wipe or brush on the mix.  Immediately sand with 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper mixing sanding dust with the liquid to create a slurry.  Leave the excess and let it sit overnight.  Sand again with 320 grit without adding more liquid.  The oil/varnish mix will still be somewhat wet and this step blends more sanding dust into the slurry, further filling the pores.  Wipe off the excess and let the surface dry.  If low spots remain then repeat the process.  If not, let the project dry for two or three days.  If you want to increase the grain's contrast, you can sand through the color on the surface, lleaving it only in the filled pores.  If you want to lleave the existing stain color over the entire project, sand lightly with 320 grit, making sure not to sand away the color.  Finally apply a topcoat. 

   I should have done this on the table tops but prabably not on bar top.  Anyway the bar top looks good enough for this dive bar.

4. 
   EdHarrow | Feb 13, 2005 01:29am | #19

   Oil sanding.  Great stuff. 

   Read more varnish guidance in Brightwork by Rebecca Wittman.

5. 
   hammer1 | Feb 13, 2005 04:46am | #20

   You may find this information on fillers interesting.http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/fillers.shtmlBeat it to fit / Paint it to match

6. 
   Miko | Feb 15, 2005 02:23am | #21

   Thanks for the hook-up Hammer.  I think I might try the water based filler on the upstairs bar.  I like the short drying time.