Replies

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jun 02, 2004 06:12am | #1

   The oil finish you applied was not sufficiently dry/cured; that's causing the gumming problem with the waterborne finish.

   Remove the sanding sealer and the danish oil that's on the surface of the wood with either a finish stripper or solvent like like lacquer thinner. Let it dry for a day, then use your wipe-on poly.

   You didn't say what kind of wiping poly you were using, but a sanding sealer that's compatible with an oil-base poly is unusual. I'm not familiar with any waterborne wiping poly products so I'm guessing it's oil-base. Also, if you're using an oil-base poly, there's no point in starting with a danish oil; the poly contains oil and has the same effect on the wood.

   Paul

2. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 02, 2004 08:28am | #2

   Yikes !! -- sorry to say, but you better take a pic of the tables for the wedding, with a promise to deliver the goods "at some later date."

   Here's what happened:

   If you look at the Watco can carefully, they probably say something like "can be put in use after 2 days" -- but they don't say anything at all about the time the finish needs to cure before you can overcoat with some other product.

   All oil based products take an absolute minimum of 7 days to fully cure, but most require 30 days.

   I am curious to know why you chose to apply a water based sealer over the Watco. If you tell us what you were aiming to do, we can give you more advice.

   But I'm afraid Paul S is correct -- your only recourse now is to get out the stripper. That's the bad news. The good news is, it won't take much effort.

   Go to your local HD and get a quart of liquid (not semi-paste) stripper, apply it with an old brush and scrub everything down with ScotchBrite pads (get some of the maroon colored, which is about the abrasiveness). You don't need to bring the surfaces down to bare wood -- just scrub off the sealer. After stripping, wash and scrub down with paint thinner.

   Then you will be ready to start anew.

   Watco by itself can produce a great finish. If you reply to this, I will give you the steps.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/2/2004 1:29 am ET by nikkiwood

1. 
   yieldmap | Jun 02, 2004 07:49pm | #3

   Thanks Nikkiwood,

   I wanted to get a nice "glassy" finish on the top of these tables.  So, I read (I believe here) about a finish process that puts danish oil down first, then sanding sealer to smooth out the top, followed by several coats of WOP to protect.  I thought that 2 days would be long enough to dry...guess I was wrong.

   I understand a 1 lb cut of shellac also works as a sanding sealer.  Would it have gummed up as well?

   I used the water based 'cause that's the only sanding sealer Lowes had, I believe.  I would have rather picked up an oil base, but I didn't see one.  Maybe oil based sanding sealer doesn't exist?

   The last set of tables, I put 1 coat of Danish Oil, let it dry for 3 days, then WOP 3 coats.   It worked OK, looks nice, but doesn't have that "sealed, glassy" appearance on the table top.  Just Danish Oil looks nice, but I understand that it provides little protection from glass rings, water spots, etc.  These tables will be used, and the risk of water marks (beer marks) is probably eminent for these newlyweds!!

   All help is appreciated,

   yieldmap

1. 
   Alan | Jun 03, 2004 02:45am | #4

   Yieldmap,

   You've gotten excellent advice so far.  Your only real course is to remove the sanding sealer and get back as close as you can to step one.

   If you're looking for a glassy surface on cherry you should use a grain filler (NOT wood putty).  The grain on cherry is large enough that trying to get a glass-like surface with the products you named would take forever.  A grain filler (or 'wood filler'; but beware of HD "experts") will mean you can get your glassy surface without a couple hundred coats of varnish.  You can use a proper filler before or after sealing, and before or after staining.

   Using shellac as a sealer would have avoided most of your current woes.  Its solvent is alcohol, so it dries very quickly--quickly enough that you can put on several coats in one day.  Shellac has been used as a sealer for centuries, so there's no need for a sanding sealer.  Others say that shellac takes time to "cure," but if memory serves (questionble) shellac dries, it doesn't cure; and IME you can proceed as soon as it is thoroughly dry.

   If you strip off the sanding sealer I don''t believe your troubles will be over.  As you've been told, Danish oil needs time--and lots of it--to cure completely enough to put a film finish over it.  Danish oil also has the habit of penetrating the wood, so stripping would not remove all of it.  If you strip the sanding sealer and all the oil you can, you should still wait for the oil down in the wood to cure completely.

   Wiping on poly (yeeech) or any other finish on a table that will see hard use wouldn't be my choice.  A wiping finish is simply a thinned down whatever.  For a hard-use table I would want a good "build" of the finish to protect the wood (it's easier to fix problems in the finish than in the wood).  It takes many times more coats of a wiping finish to get sufficient build.  I would also consider using extra-tough "bar top" varnish on your tables.

   If you want a glassy surface use a gloss varnish; scuff sand between coats and remove all the little bits, nits, bugs and motes that inevitably stick to drying varnish.  When you have enough build, let the varnish cure for as long as you can stand it, and then rub it out to the sheen you want.  Rubbing out varnish is the only way I know of to get a good build and a flat, glossy surface without that horrible plastic look.

   Lastly, don't just dive in and do whatever we say.  For me, the very first rule of finishing is there should be no surprises. Experiment with the finishing products and procedures you will use on cut offs, and left over scraps.  This will prevent this sort of misadventure.  DAMHIKT

   Alan

1. 
   yieldmap | Jun 03, 2004 07:16am | #6

   OK all,

   First, thanks for all the advice.  This forum is terribly educational for amateur woodworkers like me who tend to "learn the hard way."

   I noticed this morning that the sanding sealer was a little harder than it was last night.  So, I let it dry more (29 hours total) until tonight.  My thought was that if I was going to have to strip off what I've already done, I might as well screw it up really good before I do.  So, I sanded for a while.  The sealer smoothed up pretty well, with just a few rough spots where it still exists (not a completely level tabletop, due to me scraping the joints smooth with a cabinet scraper).  I'm going to let it dry one more night, then try to put a couple coats of varnish on it, sanding in between.  I think I'm past the "glassy smooth" stage on these tables, and am planning to settle for a nice finish but not a perfect one.

   The wedding is 6 hours away, and I absolutely have to take them with me.  I'd never get them down there otherwise.  If all fails, and the varnish doesn't take well, then I'll strip them before we leave and put on another coat of Danish oil.  I could then include a can of varnish with the gift with instructions to apply it in a couple of weeks, when they get back from the honeymoon.

   And when I thought I'd bought enough tools to do this hobby, someone told me that I had to actually finish these things.....

   Now that would be a good poll: How many woodworkers love working wood, but hate finishing?

   Thanks again,

   yieldmap

1. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 03, 2004 10:44am | #7

   Sounds like you're in a pickle.

   If you absolutely, positively have to deliver the tables to the wedding, here's what I would suggest:

   1) Strip off the sealer coat, as I suggested earlier.

   2) Scrub the stripped surfaces with paint thinner.

   3) Apply one coat of Watco oil (which you should be able to do almost immediately). This coat will even everything out.

   4) Deliver the tables with a can of polyurethane, a brush, and instructions if necessary. For wear purposes, they could get by with just coating the top of each table -- but there will probably be some gloss differences between the top and legs. I would advise them to wait a month before brushing on the poly.

   Here's a link to a fellow that explains the Watco Oil finish as well as I could:

   http://www.wwch.org/Technique/FinishesRL/OilFin.htm

   Let us know, if you want to have more discussion about "what happened here" (with the sealer, shellac etc. ).

   You're right. The need to know something about finishing is the "nasty secret" of woodworking.

2. 
   joinerswork | Jun 03, 2004 04:00pm | #8

   yieldmap,

   I hear the desperation in your post.  I already know you won't take this advice, (why? because I never would myself!) but you really should consider twice whether you want to pass off your finish problems onto the newlyweds.  If finishing these tables is giving you fits, why do you think your friends will be grateful for the experience?  Personally I'd prefer a nice piece of crystal, (or a bottle of cristal).

   I would suggest that you take your time with this. I second the suggestion to strip the finish, and start over. But... Sounds like the sealer is slowly coming around.  Whether an oil based poly will stick to a water based sealer over watco oil is anybody's guess, but if you sand the sealer after it has all dried, so the surface has an even "tooth" for the varnish, it probably will lay there for you.  Lay the varnish on in thin coats, and give it time to cure (or maybe peel back off) before delivery.  Folks generally don't appreciate sticky finishes, or having to wait for a finish that may or may not fully dry.  I know this from experience!

   Plan on sending the tables in good time, by UPS or otherwise.  Emily Post says you have a year to get the gift to them, I just asked her;-))  Then you can give them a gift that you can be proud of. Remember,your workmanship will be judged every time the tables are used, or looked at (down in the corner of the basement). 

   A local sheet metal shop has a big sign on the wall behind their counter: " Never enough time to do it right--Always enough time to do it over."  I HATE warranty work!

   Good luck,

   Ray

2. 
   yieldmap | Jun 03, 2004 07:03am | #5

   Nikkiwood,

   So, what's the steps to a Danish Oil only finish?  Will it work for a tabletop, with some amount of abuse in the future?