I just applied a shellac finish to a bookcase. The piece measures 64 long, 11 deep, 34 high . I used Zinzer’s 3 lb cut, amber and fear I may have messed up seriously. I usually use Danish oil under lacquer or varathane and wished I had done the same. The piece was sanded to 180 grit but, in the application the uneveness of the shellac left a splotchy result and looks like crap. I used a fine brush.
Any ideas what I can do to save the piece?
Can I use sandpaper to even it? Steelwool? Should I have sprayed? Give it another coat?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Replies
What type of wood is it?
In general, you can fine sand it (~220-320), and apply another coat of 2 or 3 lb. It should look better- if not, you can do a topcoat with just pure denatured alcohol to see if that will level it and do the trick.
If the wood is unsuitable, or you just don't like the look, just scrub it down with some #000 steel wool and denatured alcohol. This will leave a bare sealer coat and you can go to another finish or let it dry, repeat, and then wipe it with a rag containing DA. It should come off easily and you can start over with Danish oil or varnish or whatever. Usually shellac is pretty forgiving and not hard to either rub down or take off.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Check out Jeff Jewitt's technique for "padding" shellac at http://www.homesteadfinishing.com. Works quite well if you follow the instructions carefully. Also, cough up some dough for good pads before you try it. I use fairly expensive high-tech medical gauze. Works great. You could use the gauze with pure alcohol, as has been suggested, and smooth what you've got, then add however many coats you'd like later; but you can get orange peel that way. I'd practice padding shellac on scrap til you get it. Then you'll have a better idea how it behaves, and how to fix your project.
Charlie
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
What Glaucon said. Nothing has been hurt, that's one of the beauties of shellac.
Did you thin the #3 cut at all? I've found brushing is very difficult with shellac out of the can. I usually thin 50-50 with alcohol (or sometimes thinner on the first coat) You can try wiping the piece down with some alcohol and synthetic abrasive pad, or you may have to resort to light coat of stripper. Either way the wood is now probably well sealed, and a couple or thinned coats should work well.
Good luck- I also learned the hard way!
"or you may have to resort to light coat of stripper." Stripper? With shellac?! News to me.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"or you may have to resort to light coat of stripper." Stripper? With shellac?! News to me.Only if things are really messed up- something like citri strip will get you back to square one, although the other postings about remedying this problem are very helpful- I for one continue to learn a lot from this forum- and I love shellac as a finish!
or you may have to resort to light coat of stripper." Stripper? With shellac?! News to me.
Only if things are really messed up- something like citri strip
What Forest Girl is referring to is that there is no need to use stripper on shellac. Just denatured alcohol. The stripper will introduce yet another thing to the equation. And the cleanup with alcohol is SO much easier.Gretchen
"The stripper will introduce yet another thing to the equation. " It's also brutal on the wood, to be used only when absolutely necessary, IMHO.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I don't find it "brutal"--and if it's needed, it's needed. I use mineral spirits for clean up so there is little to no grain raising, and it ends up pretty much like the wood I have removed shellac from.Gretchen
Winwood, and everyone else,
Whoa! Hold on. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your shellac finish. The "problem" is that you are hardly done. Forget exotic measures such as padding and wiping the surface with alcohol at this stage of the job.
Splotchy? Uneven? You ask CAN you sand the surface? You MUST sand the surface.
You have reaised the grain with the alcohol in the shellac. A single coat of shellac, or several coats over previous coats that have not been leveled will come out terrible.
Lightly level the surface, with 220 grit on a rubber or cork sanding block, knocking back the raised grain, nibs and other surface irregularities. Don't try to achieve a completely even sanded surface. Many shiny "valleys" will remain. The shellac should sand very easily, especially if it contains wax (your amber preparation probably has quite a bit).
Yes, results will be better in the end if you spray, but you can keep on applying with a brush. Brush or spray another full coat. Let it dry at least 48 hours and level again. This layer should have no raised grain (the previous coat was the "sanding sealer") and should level almost completely with few untouched "valleys."
Apply another coat, let dry and level again. Use 320 grit. It should level perfectly smooth and even. Then use either 400 grit and a lubricant (mineral spirits is good) or use 4-0 steel wool with or without lubricant. The surface will have an even low sheen. You can continue to rub out the surface with higher grit abrasive as you like up to and including rubbing and polishing compound, ending with swirl remover for a mirror finish.
Don't expect fine finishes to flow out and dry to a pleasing surface. You must finish the finish. The exception is varnish, which in a dust-free environment can be simply brushed and will self level (to a degeree). But nothing compares to the beauty of a film finish (especially shellac) which has been rubbed out as described.
Rich
Don't ever learn anything new. Rather than give you satisfaction that you know more than you did, it will only confirm you know less than you thought by opening horizons to things of which you had never dreamt and which you now must explore.
I agree with Rich14. I had splotchy results with the same product for the first couple of coats, and I was concerned because I had never seen that with other shellac products I've used. In the end everything came out fine after sanding to 330, applying a third coat, confirming I had a smooth even coat, then a couple coats of laquer as top coat. I suspect I had some surface contamination and when the first coats cured (it was a week between the first two and the third coat of shellac) they formed enough of a barrier so the problem was contained.
I thinned the shellac to about 1.5 pound cut before applying. I used an HVLP gravity conversion gun with 1.3mm tip and kept a brush and denatured alcohol handy just in case.
I love shellac. My only reservation is flammable solvent when spraying. No explosion proof spray room/booth, so I have to take it outside.
Thank you, Rich! Shellac is such an easy, straightforward and beautiful finish (for the right pieces). It's a shame to see all this consternation and misinformation.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Shellac is junk. I would remove it all together. Denatured alcohol should remove it easily using a sand block (fine) from 3M to help it remove ALL the shellac. You obviously are happier with the process you used before and I agree it works much better.
Swanny,I will give you the benefit of the doubt for this once. You may be one of those unfortunate few who simply has never had the pleasure of being shown the simplicity and beauty of a fine shellac finish.Because shellac is so versatile, and is often used as a quick sealer, it falls into the hands of carpenters who slop it on poorly-prepared cheap lumber with brooms. It does its job magnificently, thank you very much, but in that application, looks pretty hideous. One whose only contact with that sort of thing, especially if you are the one who uses it in that manner can lead to the conclusion that it's not a nice looking finish.Shellac is one of the most beautiful finishes that can be applied to the surface of wood. Some think, the MOST beautiful. While I am confident that I can rub lacquer out to rival the best shellac finishes, I continue to admire any well done shellaced piece.While shellac can be damaged by alcohol, the chances of actually getting alcohol on a piece of furniture other than a coffee table or bar top are extremely small. It is very durable so all the usual warnings about it being an easily damaged finish are nonsense. Besides, if damaged, it is (along with lacquer) ridiculously easy to repair.Now that you've been educated, you have no reason to continue to denigrate shellac as a finish. If you continue to do so, I withdraw the offer to give you the benefit of doubt and declare you a fool.Rich
Don't ever learn anything new. Rather than give you satisfaction that you know more than you did, it will only confirm you know less than you thought by opening horizons to things of which you had never dreamt and which you now must explore.
The first finishes I used were shellac (french polishing) and the reason for my dislike is their inability to withstand hard use and maintain their beauty. Nit lacquer is the same kind of junk as it looks great, but doesn't stand up. They both are easily repaired, but my customers want beauty and durability, and every time I have to come back and do a repair it cost me money. This is my 28th year in woodworking, and I am not a carpenter, I am a master woodworker. I have developed my own finishes which endure better than any, and look as good or better than shellac or nitro lacquer. Be careful who you criticize about education in woodworking methods, you may not be right.
Swanny,Would you care to enlighten us about the finishes you have developed which"endure better than any and look as good or better than shellac or nitro lacquer?"If you have used shellac in situations that had to withstand physical abuse, it is your own fault and not that of the finish. Yes, there are much, much more durable finishes. One doesn't haul lumber with a luxury sedan. A flat bed truck with a suitably protected bed is the choice. But then the truck is out of place for a party at the country club.Shellac is anything but junk Swanny. You are fortunate to have survived your own initial lack of experience and poor judgement with finishing methods and to have been given the opportunity to correct your early mistakes. But the experience appears to have left you pedantic, very opinionated, abit angry and quite short-sighted.Rich
my customers are the test, not me. They decide what they want in a finish by call backs due to damage. Europe has discontinued using nitro lacquer due to complaints from customers about durability, and switched to polyurethane. if you make your living from woodworking you learn fast the difference between making money and not. How many antiques are in the trash? Mostly due to the finishes failing? Few survive the test of time. Yes my finish is that good!
Swanny,
My accusation that you were a fool was only tongue-in-cheek and I was only trying to make light of your rather severe response to this thread.
Now you are simply proving my point.
Lighten up. You are very poorly informed, you are comparing apples to bananas. You're viewpoint is very distorted and you are handing out bad advice.
Rich
Europe has discontinued using nitro lacquer due to complaints from customers about durability, and switched to polyurethane.
More likely is that IF the EU banned it is because of the high VOCs and toxicity of MEK. I didn't know either that this guy Europe had "customers."
You taking all of your medications, Swanny? I think you might test for ADHD (Accuracy Deficit Histrionics Disorder)...Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Try reading the trade magazines (wood digest) as they provide good info into the problems and solutions of the woodworking industry. Conversion varnish and conversion polyurethane are taking over in several large cabinet shops due to their durability. They are synthetic lacquer. Powder coatings are also coming to the US, and are in Europe now. Not that I recommend them to smaller shops, but if shellac were the best answer no one would be looking for a better solution. Water based finishes have a long way to go as far as competing with oil based. In the last 2 weeks I have had 3 kitchen refinishes due to Nitro lacquer not lasting (most were only 2 to 3 years old). I have redone 4 tables with rings from water that went through the finish to bare wood (water based lacquer) in the last month. I specialize in restoration so I see a lot of older finishes, varnishes, shellac, poly's etc. I do have to use shellac in some restorations, but I inform the customer of the limits of the finish. Varnish seems to endure the best in my experience of refinishing and restoration pieces. I developed my finish to solve the problems I see with other products, and it does just that. There are answers if you take the time to solve the problems. My advice is from experience and learning from the old masters, to whom I listened and learned.
Your statement that "Europe" is eliminating nitrocellulose lacquer due to customer complaints is extremely dubious. Show me the reference.
As far as learning from "old masters", remember that a French polish finish was consider the top of the line. Shellac is quite durable, though in the old days they would do an acid wash to harden the shellac and make it impervious to water or alcohol.
Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
"...they would do an acid wash to harden the shellac." Paul, I've not read about this before -- can you provide more detail? or a reference? Not that I'm likely to try it, simply interested in knowing about it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The local woodworking club had a presentation by a rep from Zinsser recently, and he mentioned the use of acid (then known as oil of vitriol, aka sulfuric acid) as a final step. The acid when wiped on the shellac will catalyze further cross linking and hardening of the shellac. He also stated this step isn't something that he hears modern finishers doing -- no surprise there.
I have not referenced this further, but I have no reason to disbelieve it. If anything, my chemistry background convinces me that it is very probable.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Paul, I hope you didn't think I was questioning your post -- not at all! I was intrigued and wanted to know more. Thanks for the info. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
No, I dind't take it that way at all -- I guessed you were intrigued but I wanted to qualify my knowledge about the subject. I didn't want to come across as some expert when it was something I'd learned third-hand. I was intrigued when I heard about it, too. Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Sulfuric acid, lye (rag on a long stick) -- those old-timers didn't pull any punches, did they?!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
those old-timers didn't pull any punches, did they?!Ya bet.. !!! My Grandpa punched me in the NOSE when I told him I wanted to take up Boxing!... I went into Electronics....
I didn't want to come across as some expert..
I use to till' somebody asked me a SPECIFIC question.....
Yeah, I agree. The more I've learned, the more I realize how little I know. I guess this is why they say ignorance is bliss...Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Swanny,
Your posts are becoming more and more intrigueing.I would think that others could stand to learn something from your experiences, so I for one am keen to know what finishes you have developed to solve the problems you have encountered with other products. If you cannot share then you will find that some people will ridicule you and then what's the use of merely stating your point of view or making sweeping generalisations without substantiating them?
For what it's worth, I would not expect nitlac to last long in a kitchen either.
Why not use shellac to bringout the color and beauty of the wood followed by a couple of coats of water-based acrylic varnish to provide durability? I've used this finishing schedule on my last 3 pieces and so far have been happy. What finish schedule do you recommend? Might have to try it on the next piece.
Regards,
Terry
Terry,Your method is a good one. But I don't use shellac to develop color in wood. I use shellac as "white" as I can get it (and that means it's not only filtered and bleached, but dewaxed). While using amber shellac will impart that particular color, the depth, "fire" and clarity that can be developed with a shellac finish is somewhat diminished with the varnish over coat. You gain the protection of the varnish so you trade some attributes for others.Shellac is the most versatile of base coats. It will adhere to just about anything, and just about anything will adhere to it. If I were to start with a shellac containing wax (any naturally collerd variety) I would make sure my last coat is a dewaxed shellac. That way adhesion of the next fiish is improved. I would level sand the top shellac coat with about 320 grit.I haven't used any acrylic varnish, but I've been experimenting with Varathane Diamond water-borne polyurethane varnish. Not over shellac, but as the complete finishing system. It is the sealer coat and the numerous coats of "build." I spray it right out pof the can with a conventional spray gun. It is so forgiving, any method of spraying or brushing is OK. Over bare wood, the first 2 coats are the sanding sealer which get level sanded to knock down the raised grain. Each coat gets level-sanded with 320 grit and the final coat (no fewer than 5) gets rubbed out after hardening for at least a month. This stuff is so clear that, applied in thin coats, it is almost impossible to distinguish the final finish from lacquer (or shellac). And it is HARD. (But you have to give it time to harden. It can be rubbed after a week, but the surface will damage very easily.)Over shellac, the shellac would be the sanding sealer.What has been your finishing schedule with the acrylic varnish and what brand?Rich
Rich,
Here's the link to the "shop shots" entry for the piece I referred to that contains the finishing schedule. Not the level of work done by some you folks here, but I gotta' start somewhere... One of the other reasons I really like the acrylic varnish is that it one of the few finishes I've used that can be brushed on without leaving brush marks. The finish levels out extremely well. In fact, I finished 2 walnut end tables using a brush (see photo attached) and never went back and sprayed them. I should say however, that I didn't fill the grain, so perhaps that allowed me to get away with it. Pardon the end table photo, not my best work!
Regards,
Terry
http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot578.shtml
I recently refinished a nice old victorian lady's changing table. It was tiger maple and book mathched walnut with all sorts of inlay work. I had to strip it ,unfortunately ,as someone had brushed poly over the original varnish. It was in awfull shape.
Anyhow, I sanded to 600, used waterbased analine stain, resanded, applied three coats of dewaxed orange shellac and then sprayed lacquer over it. I rubbed it out with steel wool and brown wax. It is a very nice finish.
Shellac is a lovely finish in my opinion and much tougher then it is given credit for. In Italy most of my relative's fine furniture is french polished - lovely and old pieces.
I can see how a professional shop might not be enamored of brushing it on or padding/ polish because of cost constraints, but it is silly to cal it a junk finish.
Frank
Very handsome work, Terry.Rich
Just think, all those thousands of antiques, some sitting in museums and worth more than you make in a year, sadly finished with such a "junk" formula as shellac. It's just criminal!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG,
Shouldn't we give the new guy the benefit of the doubt and ignore the fact that he has not yet established credibility on this forum and is apprarently unaware of the social graces.
Let's ignore the abundant bluster and close-mindedness betrayed by his posts, as well as his absolutist manner of speech, and take him at his word; after all, he has declared himself a "master."
Edited to add: Childish and combative - see subsequent posts.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 7/29/2005 12:56 pm ET by jazzdogg
How long have you been in business?
When fine woodworking first started I was there and before, where were you?
It's also safe to use on bowls and such that may come in contact with food, altough durability is a problem. It makes a good sealer, as well.
There are some unusual uses. I have a 3 story oak bannister in my house. The handrail is oak, and probably varnished, the balusters are painted white. The last paint job was done very sloppily. I was trying to figure out what I could do to repaint it, when I got a brain wave... I stripped and sanded the hand rail, and then the balusters as needed. I then prepped the hand rail with a 2 lb cut of blonde shellac, let it dry and lightly sanded with 220 grit paper. I recoated with shellac and let it dry. I then painted all the balusters freehand. Any minor errors I made getting paint on the handrail were easily fixed with a quick wipe- the paint did not set up on the freshly shellaced rail. After the paint dried, I sanded the handrail with 320 grit and then varnished it (several coats).
The shellac as a base coat on the handrail took a job that was a pain- I'd have had to mask the entire rail around all the balusters and made it straightforward. BTW, I have a friend who is a professional painter and when I asked him to quote me a price to paint the rail, he shook his head and said that with all the time necessary to do it, it would be too expensive. So even a pro with a steady hand would have had a job doing it- but after the shellac it went fairly quickly.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Most are in the landfill due to the finishes that failed to protect them!
Swanny, old china,
Could you describe to us just one of your finishes which endures better than any-the sharing of knowledge is one of the attributes of a master.Just one will do for the moment.
Follow Rich14's advice. He is spot-on. Brushing shellac is tricky, because it is hard to get it on evenly, and amber shellac will highlight the unevenness. But it's super-easy to sand it level, and as you build coats, the color evens out. Ultimately you can end up with a spectacularly beautiful finish in a surprisingly short time.
I normally thin to a 2# cut for the first two coats. Apply the first coat, let it dry for an hour or so, then sand back with 320. The first coat raises the grain, as Rich said, and partly seals the surface. Then put on a second coat and let that dry.
What happens next depends on how much color I want to add: if I want it dark, I'll keep building coats of amber shellac, but if I like the color as it is, I'll switch to blonde, which is easier because it doesn't look quite so blotchy if you get uneven applications. In any case it's time to start building up the finish, so switch to the 3# cut (straight from the can). This takes practice, though, and you might get better results by staying with the 2# cut all the way through.
Either way, I add two coats at a time, about 15 to 30 minutes apart, then let them dry for at least an hour before sanding smooth with 400. If the shellac is fully dry it sands easily to a fine powder that does not clog the paper; if it tends to stick to the paper at all, it is not completely dry.
When I've built up the finish to the desired level - usually 4 to 6 coats - I level one final time with 400, then pad on the final coat. Padding is a way to add an extremely thin layer, which dries almost instantly, so there is no "wet edge" to worry about. When the surface has the desired level of sheen, I stop and the finish is done.
Alternatively, instead of padding, do as Rich suggests and rub out after building the finish. Even easier, for a medium-gloss, level with 400, then wax and buff.
You can also use oil first, letting it cure for several days, then apply blond shellac over it. Or do the Frid finish - oil the wood, then immediately brush on shellac, wait till it's tacky, then immediately rub out with 4-0 steel wool. You have to work fast, so it's best done on smaller pieces, but you get a great finish in just a few minutes.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Thanks very much for the suggestions. All the suggestions make sense, they're much appreciated. Will now get back into my shop and try out a couple.
Will keep you posted.
David
I shellac every thing that I can. I use shallac primers on paint grade stuff. I sands the best of all finishes I've used within an hour of application. Great shelf life. You can level it, and rub it out to a glass smooth finish, or you can sand to 400 grit and buff with a lubed 000 steel wool to get a perfect satin finish. Extermely durable and nonreactive.
BTW Remember that (with no exception I know of) the more durable a finish the more imposible to repair and buff out. Also those very tough industrial coatings are very very difficult to apply.
Mike
If it were me I would get some Rottenstone (rainbow?)..
Oil or water and ALOT of rubbing but it is amazing what it can do..
Worth a try.. About 4.00 a box...
go with steel wool and use elbow grease. Shellac is very diffulcult to apply with a brush, but the stuff is very forgiving. Next time cut it back, and work the brush very quickly to keep a wet edge. Good luck..
Folks,
I would like to do something to one or two individuals who appearing out of the blue, making contraversial statements which are usually blanket generalisations and then disappearing;not long ago we had yogiRarebear and recently we have had Swanneeriver.And they don't even open their messages-I am disappointed particularly in the latter.
Unless you know some voodoo techniques, there's not much you can "do to" them. I guess they're kinda like the guy who wanders into a neighborhood bar looking for some kind of spat to get into, just to let off steam or whatever. He'll either leave permanently or become cstanII, ROFL!! Remember this, something I learned in the corporate world: "Ten percent of the people cause 80% of the problems" -- and just don't give them too much of your energy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"...appearing out of the blue, making contraversial statements which are usually blanket generalisations and then disappearing;"
Philip,
It's what I call the "cockroach mentality;" they can be very bold until someone turns on the light; then they run for cover.
Possibly related to "cockroach salespeople" who work in so many retail stores, milling about in clusters until a customer approaches - then they scurry as though responsibility were deadly poison!
My guess is that these folks were very likely to have been playground bullies, or abused, as children.
Sad, but part of life here on planet earth,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
At the bottom left of each message there's an Options link. In my browser, when I pass the mouse cursor over the link, I get a popup menu. The second item on the menu is, "Ignore this Author." Works real good.
Dunc,
I also have that option box-but the situation has yet to deterioate to that extent.
I just can't help feeling that old Swann might be witholding good information (or he has now become shy);)
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