I am in need of finishing advice.
I applied Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish to b. walnut w/ a rag with a day in between coats. On most pieces, 6 coats were applied (probably overkill I know). I did not apply any grain filler as I did not desire a glass-like finish (I like grain). I’ve let the piece set nearly a month to cure. I smell no odor and have assumed I could start rubbing it out. The good.jpg is before I started rubbing.
I started w/ W/D 600 grit, then 1500, then 000 steel wool followed by 0000. I only used water as a lubricant for all abrasives. Anyways, the wood has a very hazy appearance, lost most of its strong “oil” color, and a lot of the grain has a white substance prominently apparent in the pores (bad.jpg). I have tried wiping (scrubbing) it down w/ mineral spirits and also sanding w/ steel wool, but the white haze will not go away.
The wood is really smooth but looks like crap. Am I doomed or what is the error in my ways? Please help!!!
“100 Years” — scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work — “If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I’ll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)”
Edited 12/20/2005 7:59 pm by zombeerose
Edited 12/20/2005 8:00 pm by zombeerose
Replies
Most varnishes are not good candidates for "rubbing out" to a high gloss. Varnish does not dry to a hard finish. It always stays somewhat soft and flexible. In fact, poly varnishes are even softer. It's the softness and flexibility that gives varnish and poly varnish it toughness. Hard finishes like shellac and lacquer are much better to rub to a high gloss. Generally, varnish is as glossy as it will get when it is right off the brush.
In addition, you have not yet used an abrasive that will polish. You need to use a pumice and rottenstone or use a car finish polishing compound followed by a swirl remover. These are the steps that produce the highest gloss.
You make valid points and I will keep those in mind. However, I should have clarified that I am not trying to obtain a high gloss finish. I simply want a smooth satin finish...just without the hazy appearance. Is it still necessary therefore to use rottenstone/etc for satin?Thx
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Moisture is what's giving it the cloudy look-dp
"Satin" is defined as a specific reflectivity of light. Scatching the surface (rubbing) produces scratches which scatter the light. The finer the abrasive, the finer the scratches. But all scratches produce a haze to a degree. When the haze is gone, you have gloss.
If you have sanded to 2000 or so, you should have reached what most would consider a "satin" finish that is very smooth. Howie.........
In the future, is it a common rule of thumb that varnish should NOT be rubbed out b/c it is more durable than laquer? Also, if the grain has not been filled, should one avoid rubbing out a finish?
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Varnish (particularly alkyd and phenolic interior varnishes) can certainly be rubbed out to a gloss finish albeit not all the way to the sheen of a new Lamborgini. Rubbing is needed to eliminate the inevitable dust nibs, etc. that come with a slow drying finish.
Poly varnishes and spar varnishes are not such good candidates because of the toughness that doesn't scratch right. Even those can be rubbed out, though with more difficulty and less ultimate clarity.
Is Waterlox Original either an alkyd or phenolic varnish?Do you have a recommended system for rubbing out varnish?Thx!
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Waterlox is a phenolic resin varnish. I think it is a bit on the long oil side, making it somewhat more like a spar varnish, though that shouldn't really relate to the haze problem here. As a wiping varnish, it is pretty thin , which makes it hard to avoid cutting through layers while rubbing. It can often be applied so as to need minimal rubbing, because it is only medium gloss to start, and because thin coats set "out of the dust" fairly quickly.
When I plan to rub out a finish it is usually a brushed on varnish. I particularly like RONAN Quick Rubbing Varnish. (Hard to find, though. Its made by the same people who are more widely known for Japan colors.) Its pretty close to my older favorite, long discontinued varnish, Behlen's 4 hour rubbing varnish.
I generally start by knocking down dust nibs, or any other defects with a scraper, or with about 600 grit paper, usually lubricated with water, though I also use parafin oil (odorless lamp oil). Sometimes I shift to about 1200 paper, or sometimes I use fine pumice. If I am really leveling, I tend to use the paper, and if following gentle plane undulations, I use the pumice. I generally finish with rotten stone, on a felt rubber. Naptha removes any oil left over. I don't have the courage to use power sanding or buffing equipment, but I am not in a production context.
I greatly appreciate all of your comments and info Steve. From everyones comments, it sounds as though I should likely bypass on attempting to rub out the finish because it is already pretty level and smooth without a lot of nibs.Thanks again.
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
I certainly agree w/ everything you stated. And I have effectively gained a very smooth finish. However, the problem is that the wood almost looks like I wiped white chalk over it and sloppily wiped it up while leaving the build-up in the pores. A satin finish would not be like that, right?:(
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
I just realized that I do not know what type of wood you used?Howie.........
Black Walnut
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
I agree, I think that the water you used for a lubricant has worked its way into the finish, much like a white water ring (as opposed to a black water ring that indicates it has reached the wood and its time to strip and refinish). You may be able to draw it out with a little alcohol...
In the future, you can apply the Waterlox using just a 0000 steel wool pad, no sanding necessary between coats, and using the satin sheen Waterlox Original, you will get a smooth as butter satin finish after 3-4 applications. Prep the wood BEFORE you start finishing with a card scraper or hand plane and hand sand with 400 grit stearated paper...Very simple and nearly foolproof.
Alcohol for me or the wood??? ;)Isoprophyl or what type?
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Denatured for the wood, just a little on rag and wipe the surface, it may not work but its worth a shot...
for you? hmmmmmm........dunno! But whatever it is, it should be just enough to transfer the haze from the table to you....;-)
Som,
Don't know if this would work...but for white rings on furniture the old trick is soap...made from oil(salad oil even) and potash(fireplace ashes) and rub in small circles....
Since you didn't use a grain filler, the sanding dust has accumulated in the open grain. I don't think it will matter what you use to polish with, the open pores will be a place for the debris to build up. Try blowing it off with compressed air. Using steel wool has probably left lots of metal particles in the open grain. Water will cause them to rust. After a thorough blow out you may have some success with a light wipe on coat in the desired gloss.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Unfortunately, I have tried blowing it off w/ about 75lbs of air w/ no luck. Whatever the whitish debris is in the pores, its not willing to budge.
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Blow the top off really good, wipe with a tack rag. Then apply some finishing Wax in a dark color. Dk brown or black. Apply heavily in a circular motion, this will fill in the white pores. Then finish off by rubbing with the grain using gray scotch brite. Wipe up residue with clean cloth. If the color changes too drasticaly, wipe lightly with MS to remove some of the wax without removing from the pores.This should rid you of the white pores, using the scotch brite will help insure an even and satin sheen. I don't recommend using steel wool for rubbing down finishes. Almost all but the very best steel wool has oil in it. Also, the steel fibers break off and get embeded in the finish.Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
I think you will find that 0000 steel wool is a great medium and a recommended technique to apply wax on rubbed oil finishes. I use 0000 to rub in oil finshes after the first 2 base coats.
I used steel wool, up til 1981. Then I found out about Scotch brite by 3M. I believe a far superior product for rubbing out finishes to a satin sheen. The product comes in several grades red(coarse) thru white(finest). And is consistent in quality. I think the pads are roughly 6"x9", which is a nice large area for rubbing out a table top. Everyone has to choose the tools and materials that they believe work best for them. I said I did not recommend steel wool, for the reasons stated, not that it wouldn't work.Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
Point taken and I will try them.
Thanks for all the comments. Just wanted to post what happened. It appears as though it was finish residue from the sanding. I never could get it all to come out even after blowing w/ 75lbs of pressure, wiping w/ tack and even scrubbing with a soft tooth brush. I applied another coat of finish and most went away. Because I had essentially started rubbing out on the bottom side of the table top to work out the details (good thing considering the results I had), I am not too worried about the appearance of the back side. As far as the rest of the table, I skipped the sanding and went straight to steel wool. I dry-rubbed w/ 0000 and then rubbed again with a fresh piece lubricated w/ paste wax. I then hand-buffed off any wax residue. The result was a nice satin finish (without white hazy residue).
If you want to see a picture, I posted under the gallery w/ topic "Coffee Table for Non-Coffee Drinkers". Sorry, not sure how to link to the post.
Thanks again for the feedback!
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled