OK, I almost had a nervous breakdown trying to sharpen a laminated Blue Steel Rc 66 plane blade for my #7 Record plane. I put all of my oilstones on Ebay (you can get a real good deal on them if you’re into oilstones- seller name mycoleptodiscus) and ordered a set of Norton waterstones 220, 1000, 4000, 8000. I know this was probably a bit rash, but I’m a Jr High science teacher and I had a bad week.
First, what’s with the Nagura stone? Do I need one? What exactly do they do? They are basically chalk, yes?
One of my biggest challenges has been flattening backs. I have seen 80 and 150 waterstones. Has anybody used these? If so, how do they work. Will the 220 waterstone be signficantly fater than my Norton medim India stone?
I have seen people use a concrete block for flattening waterstones. Any experience with this?
I have tried wet/dry paper and find that the little bit of give in the paper creates a slight bevel at the blade edge. I don’t like this because I’m a bit of a perfectionist.
Replies
Probably too late, but my waterstones will soon be for sale...love the diamond whetstones...
While pricey (although not any more than the waterstones), they last and last and cut fast...
I literally keep the fine one by my work and sharpen quickly between cuts...something I learned from an English master cabinetmaker...sharpen all the time..not as "an event"..
Good luck!
lp
Tried the coarse diamond stone from DMT for back flattening. Wasn't happy. The metal underneath the diamonds bonded to the nickel started to rust!? To each his/her own. I am just hoping for a significant improvement with the waterstones. Also, the Fine woodworking article on sharpening a while back rated the synthetic waterstones veyr highly. However, as a scientific study, the research method was HIGHLY flawed. She should have not known which blade honing method she was using when she rated the shavings. AKA a single-blind study.
You don't have to use a nagura,but it will make using the 8000 easier and give you a better final polish.Since you don't soak the 8000, the nagura will help you with a good slurry on the stone which just makes everything glide easier.
The 220 is almost over kill for flattening the blade back,I do it on a 1000 but I really like to see the progression of the back.Be careful you don't go over board with that 220 and round over the corners of your blade.
A concrete block?? Maybe a sight carpenter(no disrespect intended),but not a chance for fine woodworking.There are a couple of ways to flatten your stones.Rubbing 2 stones of the same or lesser grit together will do a great job.Don't use this method if you use a honing guide that runs off the stone because you'll never be sure you have both sides parrellel.Another good method puts that diamond stone you don't like to work.Just use it to flatten your waterstones.And my personal favorite, wet-dry sandpaper on a piece of float glass. They all work, just pick one you feel comfortable with.
Brent
Hello Myc. I always recommend the same thing to everybody. Purchase the Rob Cosman or David Charlesworth sharpening DVD's at the Lie-Nielsen website. Forget about flattening the back and unless you have some seriously out of flat chisels, send the 220 grit back if you can. You will find that it will be remarkably fast to sharpen your blades using the methods taught by either one of these teachers. R.C. 66? I am certainly no expert but isn't this awfully hard and prone to chipping? Good luck and since you have invested so much money why not spend a little more and take some professional advice offered in the video's. Your blade will be sharp in about 2 minutes and you will never look back. Peter.
OK I'll take a look at the videos, but I can shave hair off my arms with plane blades I sharpen. It just takes too darn long and some of the scratches from the medium india are a bit disconcerting. I just bought the plane blade to give it a try. What do I know? We'll certainly find out if it chips horribly now won't we? If it does I'll post so all you shaving brains out there don't waste your money. It's laminated "blue steel" from Japan Woodworker. I thought I'd give it a try. The blue steel chisels got great reviews in Fine Woodworking's chisel comparison so I thought, what the hell? I wanted one blade for jointing and another for truing up the top of the edge-joined workbench top that I am working on.
I don't understand why you would say "forget about flattening the back".You'll never have a good edge on your blades without doing it. The term flattening the back may be misleading since what you are trying to do is to work out the grind marks left from the manufacturing process.As long as the marks are left on the blade the best you'll get is a sharp serated edge which won't hold up very long.
Brent
exactly!
brent...
I think Peter's referring to DC's ruler trick making flatttening the back all but unnecessary...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
You're probably right.I didn't look at it that way.
Brent
Hi Brent. I guess I should have gotten more in depth, but as Mike said yes I was talking about D.C's ruler trick. So yes do forget about flattening the back and just use the ruler trick. Peter
Jr High science teacher ........ One of my biggest challenges has been flattening backs.
I would take the blades and stones to school and tell the kids you want a nice curve on the back and you will probably get them back FLAT!
Edited 2/6/2005 7:13 pm ET by Will George
too true :) They all gave me a funny look when I walked into their wood shop class with a plane and went to work jointing edges.
Too bad you sold yer sharpening stuff.
I cannot figure out for the life of me why scarey sharp ain't working for you . It has been a defacto pragmatic, simple, and economic standard for lots of folks with OCD for at least a decade now.
If yer using sandpaper with hook and loop backing, I can see it not working and producing the effect you describe- it's simply got too much backing to stay flat, but other than that nothing springs to my mind. Well, that ain't exactly true- I can achieve the same rounding effect by over exuberance on a buffing wheel, but you didn't mention using one.
Methinks you gotta go back to basics to find out what yer doing wrong. If a flat sheet of 600grit wet paper on a piece of glass ain't working for ya, well, even if the new stones were mined from the north side of the summit of Everest by buddist monks who have achieved Nirvana - they ain't gonna be any flatter, but certainly more expensive.
I know you can get access to a stereoscope from the bio folks at school, and that may open up a whole new world to ya.
I dunno if any of the sharpening pundits would agree with me, but I think using 220 grit to flatten the back, then 2000 grit to sharpen is a waste of time, cause the cutting edge is only still gonna be at the 220 grit level, so that's what the edge is gonna be.
Me, when the back is in rough shape, I flatten it, as much as is rational (Lotsa resurrectional planes ain;t gonna get back into pristine condition first time round...), then buff it, and only then do I start sharpening the bevel. .
Just my thoughts....
Eric in Calgary
Hi Eric in Calgary. Peter in Ontario here. Just curious how you know that your glass is flat? I know that I could gently push on a window in my home and bend the glass, so how could you be sure that the glass that you rely on for flatness is actually flat? I think those Buddist monks may have achieved flatness in their state of Nirvana. And I am pretty sure that when Myc. flattens on 220 and then sharpens on 2000? that he is polishing the flat side as well therefore bringing 2 polished edges together and achieving sharpness. How cold is it there? We hit 8* above today, not too shabby. Peter
Use plate glass. I'll bet the piece of glass I pulled out of an old TV cabinet is flatter after ten years of sharpening than the most expensive wet stone from any fancy catalog after it's been used for a week.
The only method sharper than Scary Sharp is if you leather strop a Scarp Sharp edge. I have found that if I plane several feet of very soft Western Red Cedar and leave my plane laying on its side for 24 hours it will lose some of its sharpness. Less than two minutes to pop the cutter out of the plane body and run it across 400 600 800 1200 1400 sandpaper makes it lethal again-and sharper than it ever was brand new. Will
I have been using wet/dry paper on a piece of machined 12" square tile from Home Despot. I noticed that Japan Woodworker sells grit bonded to a mylar film- no "cushy" back. Anyway, the waterstones are in the mail. I try to stay away from a "disposable" lifestyle as much as possible, the main reason for not wanting to go "scary" Yes, I have a stereoscope :) I will pull it out. I could get "shave hair off arms" sharp with oilstones(now on ebay, username mycoleptodiscus), but they were just too slow (in my humble opinion)
"I dunno if any of the sharpening pundits would agree with me, but I think using 220 grit to flatten the back, then 2000 grit to sharpen is a waste of time, cause the cutting edge is only still gonna be at the 220 grit level, so that's what the edge is gonna be."
With the waterstones, you are removing chunks of grit from the clay matrix when flattening, so your grit size doesn't change on the 2000 stone. I guess theoretically you could literally plow microgrooves in your fine waterstone with too coarse a grit??? I don't know. That's why I'm soliciting advice:)
Myco -
Take a look at 'The Complete Guide To Sharpening' by Leonard Lee of Lee Valley/Veritas : ISBN 1-56158-125-9. It is a Taunton Book, cost about $25. It's worth about $1000.
It will answer every question you have, show you more methods, and explain more theories than you will ever need in two life times. I say this because it covers the sharpening of tools which I do not even own at present, but may someday.
I, too, have use wet-dry paper, DMT Diamond whetstones, water stones, ceramic water stones, Norton wheels, and the Tormek. They all serve a purpose. The book has helped me immensely, but experience is still the best teacher. The book will prevent you from wasting your time. And money.
BTW, I read somewhere in this forum that the Lie-Nielsen book (or CD, do not recall which) did not provide enough in-depth information in regards to sharpening. I have not read it myself so you will have to decide for yourself if you get, especially since your are a perfectionist, like many of us. Good luck.
Regards,
Phillip
I have already read it and agree that it doesn't provide enough in-depth info. (just my opinion) Unfortunately, I did research(I'm a scientist!), but evidently not enough, before I bought the oilstones. Oh well. I'll learn my lesson one of these days.
Myco,Please do yourself a big favor and get your hands on Leonard Lee's sharpening book. I promise that you will not be disappointed. This book has electron microscope photos (photomicrographs) taken by a scientist from the Canadian National Research Council. The photos show very clearly the results from various methods of sharpening. You cannot go wrong in the purchase of this book. If you do not agree, I will reimburse what you pay for it. That's how strongly I believe in this book.Chapter & of this book is devoted to 'Planes' and mentions the use of carbide grit on glass and the use of mylar for this purpose as well. I make my own wooden planes and use Ron Hock irons exclusively. I use my 'holders' to help speed the face sharpening process which is crucial as we both know. A truly sharp edge in nothing more that the convergence of two planes - the face and the bevel. If one of these planes is serrated (from the manufacturer's grinding process - i.e., the face) then the result will be less than satisfactory. These plane iron holders may help you. See the post on this forum as follows: 21562.18. That is the post number which has the photos.Regards,
Phillip
Edited 2/7/2005 11:46 am ET by PhillipB
Myc,
Please accept my apologies for making your solution so simple, inexpensive and relatively quick - The November '04 edition of Popular Woodworking contains the article "The Ruler Trick," by David Charlesworth, considered to be one of the top experts in plane blade sharpening and mentioned at least once in this thread.
In five pages and 15 photos/illustrations, it outlines evrything you need to know and own to sharpen your plane blades to perfection. I guess you could order the video if this didn't work, but I'd be surprised if it didn't, given the clarity of Charlesworth's procedures and his explanations for why they work (and some other methods don't).
As for your specific problem, you may have been a little compulsive, but not much. Charlesworth says the 800 is good enough for material removal, and the 1000 and 8000 are the only other wetstones you need. I, like you, use a 220, in addition to a 1000 and 6000, and get great results. And the 220 removes steel much faster than a 800. The downside is that when flattening, you'll wind up using a lot more sandpaper on it than on the higher grit stones. But especially when you're trying to recondition a blade, it's a time-saver.
Here's where you're running into problems - You're wetstones have to be perfectly flat for all phases of the sharpening process. Charlesworth recommends "float glass" as a reference surface for flattening, which he says is much flatter than plate glass. I've talked to a number of glass dealers who don't know the difference. I use a piece of 18"x18" Corian, which is very flat. The point: you're wetstone-sharpening surface must also be perfectly flat.
Find your flat reference surface, take a sheet of 320 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper (buy the contractor's pack - trust me) and either stick it on with spray adhesive (that's what I do, and I use acetone to take the residue off later), or with a water mister as Charlesworth suggests, which I haven't had luck keeping it in place with.
Draw a wavy pencil line from the top to the bottom of the surface you're flattening, and rub away with moderate pressure using alternating circular, up-and-down and side-to side motions, until all pencil mark traces are gone. At that point, your stone is flat. You'll find it will take much longer to get the 220 flat than the 1000 and 8000 - that's probably why Charlesworth recommends 800.
Only when all of your wetstone surfaces are perfectly flat will you be able to get that back flat. And you should know that flattening the stone surface is something you need to do often while sharpening, usually after every 50-100 to-and-fro strokes. It might seem a pain, but remember, re-sharpening is a much faster process because you don't need to re-flatten the back.
The Nagura stone is needed, as mentioned earlier, to create the slurry that helps the cutting/polishing action on the 8000 grit stone. Having used it, I can understand its utility.
Last night I reconditioned three blades from planes I bought on eBay. Took a while, but they now cut "like buttah." And it'll take me only a couple of minutes to re-sharpen when needed. Trust me, this system works.
If you can't find/don't have the edition of PWW with this article, I'd be happy to scan it and send it to you offline (I didn't say that).
I hope this helps,
Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Edited 2/7/2005 8:44 am ET by mvac
Edited 2/7/2005 8:44 am ET by mvac
Thanks for your very thorough answer and for staying on the topic of my post. I will go to the library for the Fine Woodworking issues. I acknowledge my being a bit compulsive -step#1 in the 12 steps:) I think that I will sleep better at night avoiding the ruler trick and knowing that my backs are flat. Also, paring chisels would not work very well with a back bevel, yes?? I just happen to have a weighing table (~300 lb of marble machined to be VERY flat for use with an analytical chemistry balance) I will look into the float glass. What about silicon carbide powder on the glass instead of sandpaper? Acetone is nasty stuff. I have tried Rain-X on the surface that the sandpaper gets stuck to. This eases adhesive removal (on polished granite tile from Home Despot).
Myc,
You're right to say that the technique we've been discussing would not work on paring chisels - in fact, I don't think it's meant to be applied to anything but plane irons.
I'm not sure why you said you'd sleep better avoiding the ruler trick - I don't think anyone on either thread has challenged its efficacy...
As for SC powder, it's a creative idea, but probably as likely to "hone" your reference surface as it is your stone. So I'd probably stay away from it, unless anyone else has any experience using it in this fashion.
Regards,
Mitch
P.S. - It's Popular WW (Issue 144), not Fine WW, that contains the article.
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Edited 2/7/2005 1:35 pm ET by mvac
I have found 2 articles on "the ruler trick" Fine Woodworking #172 pg.41 and Popular Woodworking #144 pg.82
I use the SC grit on a granite 12" tile, well supported. I use the whole tile so the wear is pretty even. It is fast on the Shaptons, and I have had no problems. I think it must cut very smallish grooves in the 5000 and 8000 stones as they have less suction grip following a flattening session. I generally flatten after a major sharpening session, while cleaning up, and it only takes a few minutes.
Not all tiles are flat, so I check them with a good straight edge before using.Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
Thanks for the info. I would have thought that SC powder would work a hollow into the reference surface as well. Good to know.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
I'm not challenging its efficacy. I'm just saying that I am going to choose not to do it.
Myc..
at the risk of sounding evangelical, DC takes pains to point out in his video that the ruler trick is for plane blades only.. it absolutely should not be used on your chisels for obvious reasons..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hi Mitch:
The glass dealer I spoke to says all glass is now float glass. He said it refers to the method of making it, and in the past the float method as reserved for special applications. But in this tech. advanced age, all glass is now made by the float method.
Can't confirm or deny this report.
BakeSale,
Interesting you say that - I spoke with a counter rep at a local glass dealer the other day and she said float glass and plate glass were the same thing. But I discounted it because she was very young and hadn't really heard the term "float glass" before.
That sure would make it easier! Thanks for the the info. I'll see if I can develop that further.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Here are some more thoughts.
You may want to keep that 220 for this reason. All my woodworking isn't "Fine". When I do carpentry work around the house I use a Buck block plane and chisels from HD. They are great nail finders. That is when I get out my 220. It gets rid of nicks in short order and then I can go to the other stones. I flatten the 220 on a concrete edging block. Works great and is fast. I don't know how flat that block is, but for those Bucks, who cares.
While it is true you only need to flatten a plane blade just behind the cutting edge, the reason for flattening the entire back of a chisel is to get a flat reference surface for paring.
You did not make a mistake buying the water stones. They work fine and are very fast, once you get used to them. I keep my 800 and 1200 stones in a small Tupperware type container. The 6000 stays on a free-standing sharpening station I built from Ian Kirby's "Sharpening with Waterstones" book. I mounted a piece of glass in the top for flattening my stones and when I get to it, I am going to add a box with a lid between the stone "pads". Then all my sharpening tools will be in one place.
Ken
Toshio Odate has an article about sharpening with waterstones in this month's Woodwork magazine -- he is an expert on the subject -- he also wrote a book that might answer your questions -- "the care and use of japanese woodworking tools"...
Hello,
I would strongly suggest purchasing the following: Taunton books "The Complete Guide To Sharpening," by Leonard Lee. ISBN 156158-o67-8
You can't get a complete book anywhere as far as I know, thats excellent and covers all sharpening
Yours Truly,
Brian in Whitby Ontario.
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