Replies

1. 
   gdblake | Jan 12, 2010 12:59pm | #1

   Eric:

   I have put Hock irons with Hock chipbreakers in over a dozen old Stanley Bailey planes (sizes 3 through 7) without needing to file the mouth wider. You only want to slide the frog back far enough to create a consistent 45 degree bed angle from the top of the frog through the mouth. This means lining up the feet of the frog even with the back edge of the mouth so that the bed of the frog lines up with the 45 degree bevel at the rear of the mouth. With the plane's frog set this way, you should still have enough clearance for a shaving to pass through the plane. With the frog set all the way back in the plane the iron must bend forward to advance through the mouth which has the effect of closing the mouth. This bending of the iron causes all kinds of chatter.

   Also, set the chipbreaker so that about 1/16th inch of the iron is exposed at the cutting edge. The chipbreaker can be closer on a smoothing plane and further away on a jack or fore plane, but this spacing typically works for most planing.

   If you need some "real time" help send me an email through Knots and I will email you my phone number.

1. 
   JeffHeath | Jan 12, 2010 04:15pm | #2

   That's it in a nutshell.
   That's it in a nutshell. Good advice. On a rare occasion, the thicker blades won't fit. Then you have to decide if you want to tamper with opening the mouth on your planes, or get thinner blades. Personally, I'd open the mouth very carefully with a file, if it was necessary. Especially on the 7 and 5. You really only need a tight mouth on a smoother, assuming that you aren't setting up the other planes as big smoothers. Camber those irons, and let the big dog eat.....so to speak!

   Jeff

2. 
   Eef | Jan 12, 2010 04:18pm | #3

   eric and gd blake,

   after many hours of fettling, as per instructions here on knots, and reading many posts about "hock stuff", i have decided to get the hock blades and chip breakers. does hock not provide instruction for the change-over? gd, did you learn what you know from trial and error?

   my top priorities for hand plane use are shooting and smoothing. i have had little success so far and would very much like to hear what you and others have done to achieve shooting and smoothing skills. eric, i do not wish to hi-jack your thread, i am as curious as yourself.

   thanks,

   eef

1. 
   eric_j | Jan 12, 2010 08:13pm | #4

   Gdblake, thank you. I wont be able to get into the shop until the weekend to try but I'll let you know. For some reason though I think I may have already tried with the frog in line with the mouth. Maybe I didn't do it exact enough, I'll try again.

   Eef,

   Unfortunately, the only instructions it comes with is how to tune a hand plane, and this comes on the Chipbreaker. The irons came with sharpening 101 instructions.

   These instructions are not Hock specific other than saying that due to the thickness of the chipbreaker you may have to set the frog back to accomadate this thickness. I'm sure I'll get it soon, but I do strongly recommend these blades. You'll understand when you see and feel them. Just don't touch the edge, as it's the sharpest thing I own.

2. 
   gdblake | Jan 12, 2010 09:06pm | #5

   Eef:

   Ron Hock has a video or two on his website that you may find helpful, but no written instructions that I know of.

   I have used Stanley planes for 41 years of woodworking. I think I am the last generation to be lucky enough to have been taught to build using only hand tools during my three years of public school industrial arts. My high school teacher was a perfectionist who required mastery of a Stanley #5 for everything you would use a plane for. In spite of his best efforts to take all the joy out it, I never lost my interest in hand planes. About 10 years ago there was renewed public interest in the tool and much written about them. I've read and tried everything. I call this fun, my wife calls it a lot of other things. I've lost count of how many old Stanley's I have restored for fellow woodworkers. All of them were shocked by how well their family hand-me-down could perform once properly tuned. I am a big fan of Hock and Lie-Nielsen replacement irons and chipbreakers, especially on smoothers.

   Using a plane for smoothing and/or shooting are, to me, the easiest applications to master. Smoothing really comes down to a well tuned plane set for super fine shavings, a truly sharp iron (with a hint of camber), and planing with the grain. There is also a simple rule to smoothing(assuming the previous conditions). If you continue to get tearout you need a plane with a steeper bed angle (50 to 62 degrees, if that fails get out your cabinet scraper), if you get a fuzzy surface you need a plane with a lower bed angle (40 to 37 degrees). That is why the bevel up smoothers are so popular now (I have the LN BU smoother and jack). By having three irons with different bevel grinds, you can approach the wood with either a low angle, a standard 45 angle, or a high angle of attack with the same plane. Shooting is somewhat dependent on how well made your shooting board is. It has to be flat, straight, and the fence set for the correct angle (typically 90 or 45 degrees). Again, the plane needs to be well tuned and have a truly sharp iron (this time straight across, no camber). I prefer to use a low angle plane for shooting board work (I use my Lie-Nielsen BU jack with their hot dog handle attached for shooting). The biggest issue with shooting is setting the lateral adjustment of the iron properly to get a perfectly square edge. This is accomplished through trial and error.

   I would be happy to try to answer any specific questions you may have, either through Knots, by email, or over the phone if the questions get two deep to be able to type a straightforward answer. (If all else fails I am currently unemployed and have time on my hands. For a fee plus expenses, will come to you. Derek made me a similiar offer to come and review a plane I made. While I would love to have him come for a visit, given my current lack of funds I hope he isn't holding his breath waiting for tickets to arrive. I'd really hate to lose him.)

   gdblake

1. 
   Eef | Jan 13, 2010 12:32pm | #9

   gd,

   thank you for the detailed reply. it was derek's post, from last year, about tuning hand planes, that got me interested in the process. prior to that, i had next to no knowledge about what a plane could really do. i had always used them to fit doors and do minor touch-ups. i did not know that a ready-for-finish surface could be had with a smoother. sad, huh? anyhow, it is comments from the likes of you and others about hand planing that helps keep me curious. next paycheck, it's off to the hock store!

   thanks again,

   eef

3. 
   9619 | Jan 13, 2010 07:11am | #6

   Gregory,

   I enjoyed your responses on using Hock irons and chip breakers on Stanley planes, especially your comments on your high school shop teacher who joylessly pushed you to learn how to make the #5 sing.

   Eef said, "i have had little success so far and would very much like to hear what you and others have done to achieve shooting and smoothing skills. eric." This might well be the most important statement ever made on Knots. HOW DID AN EXPERT LEARN A SKILL?

   There is a tendency by newbies to believe that God Almighty speaks nightly to Derek Cohen and Gregory Blake, and she ignores the unwashed newbies. The real answer comes from Frank Klausz, who once complained "These guys want to learn in three hours what it took me forty years to learn." Newbies seem to think that there is a magic set of words which, once the words are made known to them, will have the skill. WRONG!

   Having fettled hundreds of Stanleys, one gets a sense of what needs fettling and how much to fettle, and in what direction. Experience is the best teacher. Of course, it does help to have a an experienced guy around to give some pointers ------ BUT ONLY UP TO A POINT. The more pointers you get from others, the less inclined you are to explore for yourself.

   I have often thought that Derek does a disservice by giving specific instructions on hundreds of specific issues. THis caused (or rather permits, newbies to become addicted to (dependent on) Derek's advice. I would rather Derek simply instruct people on how to become like Derek -- that is -- hot to figure out things for yourself!!!!!!!!

   Therein lies the essence of a woodworker (or any skilled artisan) -- LEARNING TO FIGURE OUT THINGS -- learning how to attain the self confidence to know that you can analyze a problem and come up with a good solution.

   Anyone can learn this "higher order skill" - that of learning how to attain skills. The SECRET, if there is one, lies in the words of Woerner Erhardt, who said, "If you don't take control of your own life, someone else will."

   I have often heard newbies complain about how difficult it is to do dovetails by hand or cutting tenons by hand. So I ask, "Have you gotten much practice cutting to a line?" I get back responses indicating that they have tried it a few times. I respond with the suggestion of cutting a hundred lines a day for a number of weeks, or as long as it takes to have the skill become "second nature" to you.

   Same goes for fettling - buy a number of old Stanleys, and read a few books on fettling, then go fettle, fettle, fettle, fettle, fettle, fettle, fettle, fettle, until you get the hang of figuring out what changes to the plane lead to what changes in performance.

   Learning any woodworking skill is similar to learning to bake bread -- the more you bake, the better you become, the fewer thing go wrong, ......

   It is possible that Frank Klausz was the greatest woodworking philosopher who ever lived. "These guys want to learn in three hours what it took me a lifetime to learn."

   We live in a time when folks like to fix anything by taking a pill. Pills don't help skills. Practice, practice practice. But actually there is one more thing. You can fettle old Stanleys forever, and you will learn nothing if you do not check to see the effect of each of the changes you make. This may seem evident to you, but not to newbies. How flat is "flat enough"? How small is a "small mouth"? How fine a grit do I need to go to? How sharp does this blade have to be? How square does my shooting board fence have to be?

   You have offered to give telephonic advice to folks. That is very nice of you. But I would suggest that rather than "teach folks new skills", that you "teach them to learn for themselves". Give them some hints, and urge them to explore for themselves where to put the frog when adding a new Hock blade and chipbreaker to an old Stanley. Urge them to put the frog all the way back, and then all the way forward, and different places, and in each case, to try the plane out to see what happens. SOON IT HAPPENS. Remember when Archimedes got in the tub and said "EURIKA, I have found it."

   By teaching folks to figure things out for themselves, you have practiced that old saw "Give a person a fish, and you feed them for a day. Teach them to fish, and you feed them for a lifetime."

   I have always enjoyed and profited from your posts. I believe that is because it is so obvious that you speak from deep experience. My experience is that learning new skills takes a considerable amount of time and thought. Learning is not easy. Once you have learned a skill, then doing the skill is easy.

   OK, I believe that covers everything that is important in woodworking. Knots and Taunton can shut down now. It has all be covered. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

   Have fun.

   Mel

1. 
   eric_j | Jan 13, 2010 07:44am | #7

   Gregory, I totally agree that you need to practice on your own in order to truely learn the skills. And I do before I ever ask for help. I have tried moving the frog all the way back, but then when you put the depth adjuster down, it blocks the mouth, I have also tried moving the frog so that its coplaner with the mouth, and I wasn't able to fit the blade through the mouth. I need a lot more time fiddling with them I believe. I have the No. 5 tuned, but the other two are a little trickier. Hopefully this weekend I'll have time to try gdblake's suggestions. Thanks everyone.

1. 
   gdblake | Jan 13, 2010 10:26am | #8

   Eric:

   It was Mel who said "practice on your own". I believe some instruction is helpful before practice to give you a baseline to work from. I'm trying to give you that baseline. Out of curiosity I measured the width of the mouth opening on all of my Stanley planes (at the moment I have 9). My planes range in age from the late 1890s to around the late 1940s. The mouths are all 11/64” to 3/16” wide. With the plane's frog set flush with the rear of the mouth that leaves me with a 1/64” to 1/32” (0.015625” to 0.03125" for you decimal freaks) mouth opening with a Hock iron and chipbreaker installed. That is plenty wide for a shaving to past for most work. The only exception is setting up a #5 or #6 as a fore plane to hog off thick shavings. In that case you may need a mouth opening closer to 1/16”. Rather than file the front of the mouth to open it up for hogging work, sharpen the original thin Stanley iron with a 12” radius (camber) and use it for heavy stock removal. By using the thinner iron you will be, in effect, opening up the mouth. The Stanley iron is fine for this type of work.

   I had intended to attach a couple of pictures so you could see how I have the frog set on all of my Stanley planes, but couldn’t find a way to attach them with a reply.

   gdblake

1. 
   h12721 | Jan 13, 2010 10:10pm | #10

   gdblake,

   So how thick is a Hook Blade? Are they all the same?

   HM

1. 
   gdblake | Jan 14, 2010 10:04am | #12

   HM:
   Per Ron Hock's website at
   HM:

   Per Ron Hock's website at http://www.hocktools.com the bench plane blades are .093" thick (slightly less than 1/8").

   gdblake

2. 
   Furniture_Maker | Jan 14, 2010 08:58am | #11

   I just mic'd some naval lint
   I just mic'd some naval lint and found it to be just a touch less than a thousandth of an inch thick. Impressive how fine that stuff can be isn't it?

1. 
   gdblake | Jan 14, 2010 10:32am | #13

   Furniture_Maker:

   I am trying to help someone who is not in my geographic region who is struggling to setup his Stanley plane. By measuring the mouth opening on all nine of my Stanley's (sizes 4 through 7), which were made at various times over a span of 50 years, I was able to establish a consistency in the width of Stanley plane mouth openings. The person I am helping (Eric) can now measure his plane and see if it compares. The only point in telling him the width of the gap left once the iron is properly installed is to show him that it is plenty wide enough for a shaving to pass. Eric now has some useful data to help him check his plane and make adjustments which he intends to make use of. You would come across far more clever if you could provide some help in solving Eric’s problem.

   gdblake

2. 
   Eef | Jan 14, 2010 10:42am | #16

   gd,

   please continue instructing and passing on what you know. i, for one, am most appreciative. were it not for skilled ones, such as you, sharing what's what, how would anything get done in this sad old world?

   eef

4. 
   Furniture_Maker | Jan 14, 2010 10:42am | #14

   Eric - I'd love to buy the
   Eric - I'd love to buy the original equipment irons and chipbreakers from you if you'd like to get rid of them.

1. 
   JeffHeath | Jan 14, 2010 03:23pm | #17

   Eric

   It would be wise not to sell the original plane irons and chipbreakers. If and when you decide to sell them, having the original set as well as the nice, new Hock stuff will enhance the value of the plane beyond the few bucks apiece that they are worth selling.

   I've refurbished quite a few planes in my day, and know this from extensive experience with ebay, as well as local sales traffic.

   Jeff

5. 
   Furniture_Maker | Jan 14, 2010 10:42am | #15

   Deleted.

6. 
   Furniture_Maker | Jan 14, 2010 04:21pm | #18

   After he files all the metal that needs to be removed from various points on the body to accommodate the Hock "upgrade" the OE irons and chipbreaker are practically useless. The frog would be hanging in mid-air, in its most forward position, to get something halfway resembling a tight mouth.

   I love those old cutters and I've got a few that are down to less than an inch of usable iron. Surely would love to have them rather than know they're sitting around awaiting a time when the bloke might need to raise an amount of money that wouldn't buy a decent night on the town in Poughkeepsie if he sold the lot.