I’m a casual woodwooker with a little dinky contractor type saw that I use for my mostly very small projects. I have it hooked up to a Fein mini-turbo but find dust everywhere. I share my woodwoorking shop with my other hobbies and the dust is so bad I’ve stopped cutting wood.
The only other major tool I have is a Rigid planer.
Because of the small scale of my projects I am reluctant to drop $1500 on a WoodSucker or the like. I always wear a cartridge mask and safety glasses so the issue is not health (of course there is the lingering dust…).
Do I need a bigger shop vac or is there a suitable dust collection system that is affordable, small (my ceiling is 6’10”) and will eliminate enough dust as to not interfere with the rest of the shop?
Thanks,
Burt
Replies
It sounds as if you don't need a full cyclone anyway. If you have only one tool connected directly to your DC at a time, it does not need to be so powerful. The question comes down to price and space. Something like the Harbor Freight "2 HP" unit (frequently on sale for $150), or a 1.5-2 HP DC from Delta, Jet, or other, fitted with a cartridge filter, ought to be quite satisfactory for you. The low-cost version would be something like this, which will also keep the height down: http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm
Note that you could use this cartridge on a higher quality DC.
Edited 1/20/2005 10:00 pm ET by AlanS
Can I hook up a cyclone lid to the HF and still get good collection as well? I am a frequent buyer at HF and understand their limitations.Thanks,
Burt
I'm pretty sure some do use trashcan separators with the HF DC, and I'm sure it works but cuts down the flow some. Sorry, I don't know how much, but you might get an idea from the "static calculator" on Bill Pentz's site. By the way, one reason to put a cartridge on the HF DC is to filter out smaller particles, but another reason is that the stock bags have much more flow resistance, so you will pull much more air with the cartridge. The impeller is only 10" though, so you won't get as much flow as with a DC of larger impeller.There are some real test data on the wynnenv site.
The problem, as I see it, with starting with HF dust collector and/or filtration unit is that you could easily spend your "savings" on upgrading them to the point that they work as efficiently as you need them to.
To get the dust from below and above your table saw, I suspect you'll need 1.5HP. You can get a DC from Penn State Industries for $279 with a 1 micron bag. You can make your own overhead guard/collector (click here). Save up for a quality air filter, it'll run you around $250-$300, but getting the stuff at the source is your first priority -- I used to argue otherwise, but I've been convinced.
There are several reasons for skipping the cheapo air filters and going to a good one -- they can leak around the edges, they probably loose air-moving ability rapidly as the filter loads up, and the filtration can be very insufficient. I'd recommend something by JDS.
PS: A cannister model would be great (I'm holding out for one myself) but if you absolutely don't see one in your future, get a quality bag unit instead.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 1/21/2005 11:36 am ET by forestgirl
FG,
I certainly agree that capturing the dust at the source is the primary objective. However, the HF @$159 with a Wynn 35A cartridge @$118 costs out at $277. My concern is the true CFM in any of these cases. More often then not the CFM rating on a product is some marketing Barbie's idea of a sucker bet.The items listed above come out to 330 CFM, seasoned, with 4" duct, as per Wynn Environment web site. Is this good enough? Don't know but it is certainly within my budget and it is exemplified on Bill Pentz and Wynn's sites. It's hard to keep up with the various charts and studies done. I'd be very happy if I could find some others. I'd like to know how Penn State rates in all of this. I find most marketing factoids are more science fiction then fact. Incidentally, HF lists their CFMs at 1600. Perhaps, something got mangled in the translation???
Hi Burt, yep the HP designations can get ridiculous. My much beloved Grizzly has a rating on one of their DCs that's definitely bogus. According to a chart I saw "somewhere" you can get more info with HP ratings -- supposedly, a 1.5HP motor delivers roughly the same CFM regardless of the collector it's attached to.
Based on info provided to me here at Knots, I've decided a 1.5HP collector is really the minimum if you want to collected from above and below the table saw simultaneously (I have the PSI overhead guard/collector). I'd like to get 2HP, but really don't need it since I only run one tool at a time.
How many HP is that HF system? Which model# is it? Sounds pretty darned small, and if it doesn't do what you need it to, it's simply wasted money. A 1.5 HP DC moves around 1100 CFM. This may sound like overkill, but if you're really trying to solve the contractor saw dust problem, I think it's what you'll need. The dust that spews off the blade is a huge problem.
Another question: Does that Wynn cartridge have the paddles inside to knock the dust down by turning an outside handle? I can't see one in the picture.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi f_g,Just putting on my engineers hat here.<i> supposedly, a 1.5HP motor delivers roughly the same CFM regardless of the collector it's attached to</i>kW of fan = flowrate (m3/sec) x suction pressure (kPa) /fan efficiency.4" water = 1 kPa
1000 cfm = 0.47m3/sec
1Hp = 0.75kW
(all values quoted here within 1% of scientific number)Fan efficiency is what changes the equation - good fans are 85% efficient, poor fans are 50-60% efficient, typ value 70%.So, for a given fan type, similar power draw = similar flowrate, but if the motor's driving two different fans, then .....CHeers,eddie
FG,
Harbor Freight sells just one unit. It is rated at 2 HP with 1600 CFM. On the Bill Pentz site there is a discussion about converting the HF model to a cartridge although the newer Wynn filters accommodate the HF and Grizzly too if you're interested.Their testing after installation yielded the lower CFM which is probably the real-world number. Like you, I only need to run DC on a single tool at a time and I only have a planer to worry about after the TS. I'd like tp add a cyclone lid.I have a saw guard with a port. My ceiling is so low I can drop a supported run of hose right over the guard with a simple hook.The Wynn site suggests using compressed air or a shop vac to clean the cartridge. They don't say anything about paddles.http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm also links to Bill Pentz.
Open up 2 browsers to compare the graphics of these 2 sites:
Penn State: http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PSI&Product_Code=DC2000&Category_Code=DC2000Harbor Freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45378Besides the color, they look identical to me.
>>>>>"Besides the color, they look identical to me."Looks can be deceiving. For one thing, the HF unit appears to only operate on 110. The PSI will operate on either 220 or 110. I know you're thinking about replacing the bag with a cartridge, but for those who are looking just for fun, note the filtration difference between the PSI unit (1 micron) and the Harbor Freight unit (**30** microns). Wow. Unfortunately, Harbor Freight only provides their CFM specification -- no information on impeller size, static pressure or sound rating.I'd be happy to find out that the HF unit is a great one, don't get me wrong, but I'd examine it carefully before assuming anything.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The HF dc has a 10 inch impeller and the penn state a 12, and likely a "real" 2hp motor vs the hf motor. That said, I have the hf collector and the wynn filter setup. I have yet to suck chips with it though, because my "shop" has only one breaker. When I get two and can run my saw/jointer/planer with it, I'll report back on performance.
I decided to go with this setup because the filter catches much finer particles than any bag could, and will be useable in a cyclone if/when I upgrade, and the combo was about 250$, about half what anyone charges for a cannister unit. The only thing it lacks is the handles to knock down dust, but I have a compressor to blast it out... I also decided to go with this because I work in a garage, one tool at a time, and if it doesn't work well, it's unusual to be so cold I couldn't open the door and turn on a fan to get rid of the fine dust.
"...it's unusual to be so cold I couldn't open the door and turn on a fan to get rid of the fine dust."That's the part I'm trying to avoid altogether. I have minimum ventilation and I don't want to see any more dust.FG, I enjoy your devil's advocacy. Keeps me real.
"devil's advocacy" Who, meeeeee? LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I own the PSI DC 2000, and I've examined the HFDC closely. Many of the parts are identical, but Batorok is correct on the differences.
Batorok, is the Harbor Freight unit dual-voltage (110/220)?? Thanks for the impeller info -- that's a big difference!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Everything I've read from owners says the HF 45378 DC is 120V only.
BTW, just to forestall confusion, Harbor Freight actually sells about 6 different dust collectors, not just one. The 45378 "2 HP" is the model most often discussed.
The HF is only 120v, and they say it needs a 20 amp circuit. Mine runs fine on a 15A, but others have complained of it poping the 15A breaker...
On their website and the local store HF lists and displays the 2HP version. I'd be interested to know if there are others. The 110 20amp part may be a deal breaker as my TS is 110 on a dedicated circuit. Both on the same circuit would most certaily shut the lights out.I'm not sold on the HF so if there are other suggestions please keep them coming!Thanks,
Burt
The 12" impeller of the Penn state unit is definitely better than the 10" impeller of the HF "2 HP" unit. (There are other smaller HF units. Ignore them.) However, the 300 CFM flow measurement of a seasoned filter with a too-small duct, while minuscule, is a real measurement, and not to be compared with the nonsense you find in any advertisement. The flow goes up when you cut out the flow restriction in the inlet (after which you must be careful to have it hooked up before running it, because running it without anything connected might overtax the motor.) And flow goes up with larger duct. While the shopfox should pull more air, comparing its price with that of the HF with a quality washable cartridge filter may not be reasonable. Shopfox claims 1 micron filtering of the bags, but unfortunately there's no standard as to what that means. What fraction of 1 micron particles does it catch, and what's the flow resistance? I would guess that the washable cartridge filter you were looking at would be substantially better than the shopfox bags, but I really don't know. If the bags are woven cloth, they are not what you want, but apparently some felt bags are quite good. Bad woven bags could put the flow of the shopfox below that of the HF with a cartridge, and more harmful dust could get through the filter, to boot.I am certainly not trying to sell you on the HF. All I meant to say was that it, combined with a decent cartridge filter, is a minimum solution. If you get something else, make sure it is better. That will mean a bigger impeller. I have an HF DC ($119 on sale with 2 coupons -- the price bounces a lot) with a $63 Wynnenv cartridge that I bought as an interim solution while buiding a better system.If a DC provides a CFM figure without a blower curve, your best bet is to ignore it completely, since it is probably useless. The 300 CFM measured by Wynnenv of a seasoned filter on a system with (too small) ducting is a real value, and the imaginative figure it's sold by may be correct for the blower without any filter or duct, but is irrelevant. But don't assume that any other system, even an expensive one, will pull anything like the rated CFM value in the real world either. Only if there's a blower curve, or they specify the setup for the measurement, does it tell you anything.
This is the part I don't understand: "The items listed above come out to 330 CFM, seasoned, with 4" duct, as per Wynn Environment web site."I'm totally confused. 330 CFM isn't "smaller" -- it's miniscule, LOL!re: the paddles, you'll see that the Jet, Delta, Grizzly and PSI units all have a handle operated "flapper paddle" that goes around the inside of the cartridge to knock the larger stuff out and down into the clear bag below. They do still require blowing-out, of course, but the flapper thingie should facilitate a longer time between compressed air treatments.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
A table saw is a very effective centrifugal dust sprayer. My experience is that the only way to achieve satisfactory dust control on a TS is ample airflow, combined with collection above and below the table. My setup is a Penn State Ind overarm blade cover and a 4" port below the saw, connected to a 2 HP collector. The DC is a cannister unit, so it would fit with your ceiling height
I also have a Fein Mini Turbo, and while it's a great vac and works well with my routers and sanders, it (or any other shop vac) simply can't move enough air to keep up with a TS.
My experience to date has been that the mini-turbo is terrific with my hand held tools but disappointing with the table saw.I think I got carried away reading thru the archives about dust collection. The general consensus appears to be Oneida or Woodsucker, neither of which fits my budget or ceiling.I'll look into the Penn State.Thanks,
Burt
Burt,
I built my current shop 3 years ago. My dust control is as follows.
Portable Penn State dust collectors. 1 collector to every 2 power tools. No more than a 10 ft run per collector. Each collector has a 30 gal metal can with a seporator lid. I used 4" metal ductwork and ran everything to ground. The collectors are small and fit under workbenches/power tool stands, and I have 1 wall mounted as well. I tried 1 micron bags, but even with dust separation the bags clogged too often. I switched to 5 micron bags which seems to work better.
For airborn particles I use a JET 1 micron unit. And love it.
Jet unit = $240
Total penn state bill for 3 collectors including ductwork, gates, ect = ~ $650
My wife not commenting about wood dust in the house= Priceless.
My $0.02
Which Penn State collectors, the 1HP 850CFM?
And, what is the specific model of the Jet? I like the idea of capturing airborn particles.This set up sounds like it may be good for me. Am also looking at the HF with the Wynn Environment filter.I greatly appreciate this input as it gives me hope that I can have a relatively dust free work space.Thanks,
Burt
No shopvac will work very well on a TS. Shopvacs have a lot of suction, but don't move enough air (cfms), conected to a TS the suction quickly diffuses and is inefective. If you hold you hand 6 inches from a shopvac you will hardly feel anything, but with a dust collector you can still feel the air moving.
Mike
I use a rigid shop vac for all my tools and the only one that it works very well is on my rigid thickness planer. I also have invested in a jet air cleaner from rockler for 199.00 (the best price anywhere). This was the best thing I did to minimize dust in my shop (and my house).I no longer have a layer of dust any where. I do plan for a dust collectionsystem when money permits.
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