Hi all…
I am a new woodworker who’s been making copious quantities of sawdust over the last 9 months as I try to finish my new house (craftsman-style trim, built-in bookcases and entertainment unit). I just bought an air filter and dust collector for my small shop and need some advice — or guidance—on how to best layout duct work for present and future machinery. Currently, I have my dust collector hooked up to my table saw and scms with 4″ flexible hoses and blast gates.
I know that I will be buying a thickness planer and router combo kit very soon to start my next project.
My shop is about 13’x26′ with 8′ ceilings (joists open above). The dust collector is on casters (as is the ts) and the planer and router table will be too.
I’d like any advice on how I can most efficiently run ductwork or hoses so that i’m not continually clamping and unclamping hoses. Any thoughts, ideas, “dos”, “don’ts” or book titles would be appreciated.
Replies
The first question is: How much power does your dust collector have? If it is a small unit with 1hp or 1.5 hp, you won't be able to have a very complex ducting system, because a small unit can't overcome the losses due to internal friction. For a small unit, I would recommend quick disconnect fittings and put up with the switching.
If your DC unit is 2 hp or bigger, then you can reasonably expect it to pull sufficient flow through a moderately complex system. You want to minimize duct length and turns in order to maximize flow. Do a layout of your shop and try to design the simplest configuration with a minimum of turns. I would recommend 4" diameter ducting. You should also plan on regular maintenance of the filter, because a clogged filter will also choke off the air flow.
There have been a few articles on this subject, but I don't know where they are. Perhaps a search would uncover something.
Good luck. Tom.
you would want to stick with the most smooth straight pipe as possible line up you tools first then think about ducts. I'm thinking (if your collector has two ports) have one 4" smooth ducting going each direction around the perimeter with blast gates at the collector and on each flexible hookup to a tool which drop down from the ceiling, or just at a chair rail height. the latter may be better
Ductape can fix EVERYTHING!!!
phish,
I am a true Phish fan from their beginnings. Ooooppps, wrong discussion! :-)
Anyway, I have my major machines clustered in an island in the center of my woodshop; TS with router table built into one of the extension tables and joiner next to the TS. As you well know space is at a premium in a small woodshop, mine being a paltry 16' x 20'.
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This arrangement allows for short 4" runs. The DC has a single 5" input that has a split Y which provides 2 4" inputs. I ran ductwork off one 4" input to service the TS and joiner presently; what I call the permanent run. I plan on including the router and a downdraft table into the permanent duct. All dust generators are/will be manually blast gated.
The other 4" input is gated with a quick connect fitting and services the BS and planer on an as needed basis or as I call it the as needed run. I am currently building a dust hood for the RAS and CMS to be shared. These will be connected as needed.
MY DC is a Delta 1½ HP single stage. Delta has recently announced a new 50- 720 DC that has a canister. I'm curious as to whether or not this canister will fit my 50-760 which should make it even better, not that I have any complaints now. The DC is augmented by an overhead air circulation/filter that has a remote.
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Next step is to integrate a trash can cyclone into the mix which should help reduce bag changes (major PITA).
All this is in rough form as I'm sort of prototyping the whole thang as I go along. So far I am very pleased with the performance. Hey I still need to hang some drywall!
Hope this might give you some ideas for your woodshops' DC.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/18/2008 9:28 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Thanks for the input. Your pictures were especially helpful. Coincidentally, my shop also needs some drywall, so I may just buy some quick connect clamps for now. My DC is only 1 (or 1.5) HP, so I really like your idea of clustering machines in the centre of the shop and using short runs. Well, I'm off to the basement to move some things around!
just an idea to consider, but i finished off my shop with 1/4 chip board nailed it to the studs and rolled on a light stain came out pretty good looking with all the different woods, plus no taping or mudding
hmmmm....interesting idea....especially since i HATE drywalling....i'll consider it, but i think a coat of white paint might be more my cup of tea. Thanks.
> hmmmm....interesting idea....especially since i HATE drywalling....I might be paranoid, but drywall is fireproof like nothing else close to its price and utility. You may want to consider this if your shop is in your house. Chipboard is probably quite flammable and I wouldn't want my whole shop covered with glue in that case. Andy
I recommend thicker board or plywood, attached with screws and panel adhesive. It makes it simple to mount things to. I have 7/16 wafer board on the walls of my shop, and wish I had spent the extra money for 3/4 plywood.
Being able to just screw cabinets, etc to wall, wherever it is convenient is a big plus.
I thought about that plywood thing too...but is 3/4 inch overkill? Could I get away with 1/2 or 5/8? I really like the idea of screwing things to the walls wherever I need them and not having to be limited to locating shelves, etc over studs.
Just a thought, but you could always add another layer over the top.... Use the spray adehesive and screw it off.
AZMO
Bob,Nice pictures! Thanks for the ideas and insight on dust collectors. I guess I need to rethink my want of a small dust collector.
btw, I use a trash can cyclone (the "black one" from Lee Valley) with a 1.5 hp Penn State dust collector. It works pretty well and lets me empty the dc bags much less frequently.... though for some reason last weekend when jointing a lot of cherry, the trashcan did not fill when the dc bag did (a bigger PITA to empty, as you noted)- happily most of the time it is the opposite situation.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Here is a pic of what I plan on using for my cyclone trash can collector. It was a donation from the local landfill where I operate the scale. It looks to be made of a 1/8" thick fibreglass material and is 3' diam. x 5' long.
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I have tha large LV cyclone trash can top. What I plan on doing is basically cut it in ½ with the domed end for the top. I will then cut the top back to where the LV top will fit and then connect the input and output hoses.
If my measurements are right the top of the can will have a lip on it that I can seal the LV top to it. I have some clips to secure the top to the can. Maybe some weatherseal to make it fit tight. I will build a plywood base so it can reside on the DC cart.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/21/2008 10:19 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Keep it simple applies to most in life, particularly wood working, and most particularly dust collection.
A good dust collection system should remove waste conveniently and filter the air. In order to do this well efficiency is the key.
After a lot of trial and error, and reading a lot of posts on this site, a couple of things have worked well for me.
Location of the DC. My DC is one of the most important tools in my shop, so it lives in one of the best locations. Most other tools are located near the DC to maximize its efficiency. (Wheeling the DC from tool to tool, on a floor covered with foam foot mats is a PITA IMHO.)
I have the Jet 1.5 hp, with a cannister that filters down to 2 microns. Separators in front of the DC work well, but reduce efficiency, so I don't use it anymore. Changing the bag is a pain, but a compromise I 'm willing to make.
At first I used PVC, but have converted to sheet metal. Metal is less expensive, easier to use and manipulate, and does not create static electricity. The fittings are available at most stores, and cost half to a third of the rigid black fittings. I run the duct work as close to the DC as possible, with short flexible tubes and quick connects at the end. I also prefer the point of collection openings offered by sheet metal over plastic. On my miter saw hood I installed a 12" x 2.5" forced hot air mouth. With plastic I was limited to a 14" x 3" formed "mouth", that really only has a 4" diameter collection point. The metal mouth is a lot more efficient.
Jet's impeller is 11", with a single 6" port. (I think the Delta is 12" -- or more, which is more efficient.) It came with a Y, which had two 4" ducts. In the beginning this worked well, but over time I was looking for better efficiency. I removed the Y, and installed a sheet metal 6" to 4" reducer. Cost $3.50. The increase in efficiency was amazing. The compromise is having to swap out each hose, depending on the tool that I'm using. This wasn't such a big issue for me, as I was always opening and closing blast gates with the old system.
I eliminated all but two blast gates. Gates degrade efficiency. Aluminum are much better than plastic. Your cost will increase, however, because you're running a line from each tool as opposed to running spurs off a main line. Again an issue of shop dimensions, preference, cost and efficiency.
By running separate lines I avoid a lot of 90 degree turns. I found efficiency really dropped off with more elbows. The most on one tool is two on my TS. Everything else is either direct or just one.
The 2 micron cannister works well, but it doesn't get everything. My shop ceilings are too low to install a high end ceiling mounted shop filters. Instead I hung two 20 x 20 box fans, each in front of separate windows, and one 24 x 12 window fan above my TS. In front of each fan are two furnace filters. Closest to each fan is the highest end 3M filter (not cheap), and in front of that is a lower end 3M filter. The lower end filters pick up the larger particles, and are replaced after each big project, or end of the month. The higher end filters last 3 to 6 months, depending on how much wood working I'm doing. This has worked very well. (Don't make the mistake of buying really cheap filters. I have a friend who loved the idea, yet purchased the .99 cent blue synthetic spun furnace filters. These might be good at catching flies and humming birds, but have no place in a shop. My friend thinks they work wonders. I think they simply recirculate all of the fine dust.)
In a perfect shop I would install a 3 hp cyclone, located and vented in a separate room, with a couple of ceiling mounted shop filters. My layout, budget and time won't afford such luxury. As Theodore Rosevelt said, do the most with what you have right now.
I'm sure my system is not perfect. Yet as I continue to learn more form this site, and tinker, I'm sure I'll change some things. For now , it gets the job done, keeps the air relatively dust free, and gives me more time to build things.
Thanks so much for the input. I laughed out loud at the flies and hummingbirds comment --- what an image!!!
I do have a 1 micron air cleaner that is hung from the ceiling and that makes a big difference. Is your duct work just run-of-the-mill metal like my furnace uses.
phish,
I used 26 ga. and it works quite well. Be aware that it is difficult to get the pieces to snap together because of the thickness of the metal and the fact that the pipe is only 4" in diameter.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I use 30 gauge metal. It is .0059 inches thinner than Bob's. Is 26 gauge more efficient then 30 for DC? Don't see why it would be, but I'm here to learn. (Maybe I'm too obsesive.)Dorsett
Edited 2/21/2008 9:36 am ET by Dorsett
The thinner the gauge, the more likely it will collapse if you inadvertently run the DC with all of the blast gates closed.
-Steve
Sooooooo true!
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Dorsett,
I don't think it is a matter of efficiency as much as it is a matter of strength.
To wit: I would be very surprised if there is any difference in the efficiency of a 26 ga. vs 30 ga. metal pipe.
I do think there is a difference in strength of a 26 ga. vs a MUCH thinner section of metal pipe. This would be especially true if one were to turn on the DC where the pipe was left with its blast gate fully closed. Something's gotta give in that scenario, somewhere!
As to any significant difference in strength between 26 ga. vs 30 ga., not being an engineer, I would suspect it would be negligible. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can offer more input for you.
I used 26 ga. as I have seen that gauge recommended in several articles.
Steve beat me to it, again!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/21/2008 10:03 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
I'm glad I asked. I guess I've been lucky and avoided a mess.I eliminated all but two blast gates. Instead I hook up each end to the DC depending on the machine I'm using. Whenever I hook up the line with gates one or both have always been open. Guess I'll be visiting the local lumber yard this weekend.
Phish,I purchase my duct work from HD and Lowes. Don't know if it is 26 ga., as Bob mentions. I should know, and will check tonight.I agree with Bob, sometimes its a bear trying to connect a five foot run. Not a big issue once you get the hang of it.I broke down and purchased sheet metal sheers and a crimper. Worth every penny. If that is not in your budget good tin snips or a heavy duty wire cutter will do.Point the crimped ends towards your DC. Otherwise, over time, sawdust will build up in the crimps.Also seal each joint with duct tape. It significantly reduces air loss (possibly eliminates it), which increases suction and efficiency.DorsettP.S. Grew up in Vermont. Your internet name brings back many memories.
Dorsett,
Your internet name brings back many memories.
My hometown is right on the Connecticut river across from VT. I was in Burlington just before Phish hit the big time and I saw them perform in a nightspot (don't remember the name, it was one of those nights!).
Most folks in there were searching for the right words to describe how they felt about them, myself included. By the end of the night everyone was giving standing Ohs to every tune. I have most of their CDs and listen often in the woodshop.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/20/2008 3:19 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Thanks for the input. I'll be visiting HD tonight after I take some measurements. I already own some good snips --- not sure what a crimper is, but my command of the English language tells me it is a device for squishing one end of a pipe so that it fits into the end of another pipe. How'd I do?
phish,
Not sure if anyone mentioned this but when you assemble the pipe make sure all the crimped ends are facing towards the DC. Otherwise the space between the crimped end and the outside wall will clog up with sawdust. I would also suggest duct taping all seams and connections.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You guys are awesome! I think that was suggested and, of course, it makes perfect sense. I would have taped the seams anyway because --- well --- who doesn't like to use duct tape whenever possible? Even if it is used for its original purpose!
Phish,You got it right.When you're at HD check out the crimpers with the red handle. Cost is about $10 +/-. The time you save will be worth a lot more than $10.Dorsett
Thanks...I'll keep my eyes peeled!
Phish,
Before you fall to far in love with your dust pump and 4" ducting, I strongly recommend that you spend some time visiting Bill Pentz' site.
http://www.billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
There is a lot of information to digest but well worth the visit.
You want to be as knowledgeable as possible on fine dust collection. Whatever design you employ will be in operation along side of everyone of your dust generating tools.
Doing it right might cost you more than you planned, but how do you value your lungs?
Don
Don, thanks for the link to Bill's Cyclone site. I am setting up my shop in my two car garage. I built a storage shed on the side of the garage to free up space in the garage. I built in the dust collector and air compressor to free up space. Nice benefit is the extraction of air from the garage and moving it out and into a separate area. Sadly though I see from his charts that my Delta portable will be woefully undersized when fully completed, but for the moment it will have to do.... I am a landscape contractor, and we use a lot of low pressure PVC drain pipe for projects. Flow charts for show PVC is excellent for friction loss. Any reason why more people don't use this material? My plan is a 6" line across the top of the garage and drops down both sides to the equipment. One drop will use a trash can separator for the floor sweep. Otherwise straight to the PIA bag on the portable.Any suggestions out there?
Azmo,
1. PVC Pipe. I think there is still a lot of concern of static discharge starting a fire.
I haven't got my cyclone set up yet, so am running a 2HP 1200 CFM dust pump with PVC hose. I get some pretty good jolts from this and see some interesting sparks arcing to my equipment when using the DC for general vacuuming.2. Your ducting design. If you use 6" ducting with an undersized blower, you have to be mindful of dust build up especially where the flow changes direction, speed etc. You need to keep the velocity as high as possible. Make the 90's as long as possible using 45's or even 22.5 degree elbows to ease the transition. Your trashcan separator is going to really knock down the efficiency of the system. If you don't need it don't use it. If you have to have it, don't have any other gates open.
Make sure you allow room and flexibility to upgrade your dust collector as soon as possible.Don
Don,
Thanks, static electricity could be a nasty factor. Pretty simple to provide a ground wire along the PVC, and a simple aligator clip to the equipment. Yes 22.5 long sweep els are essential. One of the interesting things about PVC pipe is using a heat box to form your own curves. Custom headers for your 57 chevy.... Heat box is just a ply box with a inlet for the heat gun. Easy for short pipes, If you want to bend long sections the pool plumbing guys have heated rod that rotate the pipe and that works great also.My thought for the trash can is one 4" spur to the floor sweep with the trash can there to catch the dropped nail, nut, brads, screws etc. It would not work for the whole system! With the cyclone separator it does not appear you would need this at all? Right now with my portable Delta, this stuff is not good for the impellers.Which Cylone are you looking at, the Clear View off of Bills web site or are you going to make one?Morgan AzMo
I have already purchased the CV1800 except for the discharge filters.
A friend of mine built the equivalent using Bill Pentz design guides from his website.
He makes his living woodworking and his shop is unbelievably clean. He is in the country and all of his exhaust goes into the bush.
My 1 micron felt bag leaves a nice fine talcum powder film everywhere. It catches the coarse material and pushes the killer dust back into the air.Don
Don, Where did you get the felt bag? Leftover from a portable DC? From what I have read they are not all created equal, I have the Delta model and I often don't have it connected to the router table correctly so I really don't have a handle on its capability.
So in my plans for a remote building located DC, very likely the 1800 model. I could still expect talcum dust with a felt bag. Might just have to cut another hole in the wall and put the filter outside my remote building.
Thanks for you insight.
AZMO
Just when you think you are finished, there are two more things to do....
Wow! You weren't kidding...that site is a cornucopia of DC information. I will definitely spend a lot more time looking through it before I go any further.
Thanks for the link.
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